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Post by Squeemonster on Nov 9, 2006 14:11:12 GMT -5
I found that aspect of the story very distressing. Jack is, I don't quite know how to express this, losing what makes him Jack, his dedication to his calling. If Ben dies because of Jack's actions, Jack may not be able to live with himself, and if Jack can, I'd have serious reservations about his ability to perform as a surgeon. So I have issues with what Jack did, and they're big ones. Jack's actions are understandable, but not excusable, IMHO, if that makes sense. Anne, hoping some of this makes sense, because it won't come out coherent no matter how many times I retype it P.S. It does, however, make for interesting TV, and I hope we get to see the repercussions, on Jack and those close to him. I am not a Jack fan and I found this very disturbing. In the sense that it really is fundamentally wrong for a doctor to do. Once you step over that line . . . . I don't care what your motivation is. I could never see Dr. McCoy doing something like this. He couldn't even let Mirror Mr. Spock die in Mirror, Mirror even if it meant he couldn't get back to his universe. I'm sorry - while I see admiration for Jack for this over on TWOP, it just puts me more firmly in the disliking Jack column. Um. . . . Monnie don't hurt me. Sara - what is your input on this on Lost expert? Hee! ;D I don't mind--that means more Jack for me. For me, I'm even more intrigued by Jack's storyline now.
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Post by Sara on Nov 9, 2006 14:13:02 GMT -5
I posted this on the main board, but I'm putting it here too, 'cause I can. And did anybody else notice how unusually pretty Lost was last night? I mean in addition to the "Hawaii Pretty" we've all come to know and love, Eko's funeral with the sunbeams streaming down, Jack lying asleep on the table, Jack when Kate came in to talk to him green on blue, the filming of Sawyer and Kate getting it on. Wow. I didn't, but I attribute that to the talking online about the show and my father flitting in and out while I watched--that was a fun little distraction.
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Post by Squeemonster on Nov 9, 2006 14:14:28 GMT -5
I love how they kept talking about Kate finally making her big decision, and we're all still debating who she really wants to be with. ;D I'm more in favor of Kate/Jack, for the completely shallow reason that I love Jack while I really don't care for Sawyer. But I don't really believe in shipping and I'm just gonna sit back and let them tell their story. In conclusion, threesome. Look into it. I think you've got Lola's vote. And mine. ;D It's the most logical thing to do.
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Post by Sara on Nov 9, 2006 14:14:45 GMT -5
I found that aspect of the story very distressing. Jack is, I don't quite know how to express this, losing what makes him Jack, his dedication to his calling. If Ben dies because of Jack's actions, Jack may not be able to live with himself, and if Jack can, I'd have serious reservations about his ability to perform as a surgeon. So I have issues with what Jack did, and they're big ones. Jack's actions are understandable, but not excusable, IMHO, if that makes sense. Anne, hoping some of this makes sense, because it won't come out coherent no matter how many times I retype it P.S. It does, however, make for interesting TV, and I hope we get to see the repercussions, on Jack and those close to him. I am not a Jack fan and I found this very disturbing. In the sense that it really is fundamentally wrong for a doctor to do. Once you step over that line . . . . I don't care what your motivation is. I could never see Dr. McCoy doing something like this. He couldn't even let Mirror Mr. Spock die in Mirror, Mirror even if it meant he couldn't get back to his universe. I'm sorry - while I see admiration for Jack for this over on TWOP, it just puts me more firmly in the disliking Jack column. Um. . . . Monnie don't hurt me. Sara - what is your input on this on Lost expert? I don't know about the "Lost expert" title, but I weighed in earlier on the Jack thing here. Still pondering the situation as a whole, though.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Nov 9, 2006 14:24:58 GMT -5
I am not a Jack fan and I found this very disturbing. In the sense that it really is fundamentally wrong for a doctor to do. Once you step over that line . . . . I don't care what your motivation is. I could never see Dr. McCoy doing something like this. He couldn't even let Mirror Mr. Spock die in Mirror, Mirror even if it meant he couldn't get back to his universe. I'm sorry - while I see admiration for Jack for this over on TWOP, it just puts me more firmly in the disliking Jack column. Um. . . . Monnie don't hurt me. Sara - what is your input on this on Lost expert? I don't know about the "Lost expert" title, but I weighed in earlier on the Jack thing here. Still pondering the situation as a whole, though. I forgot to mention earlier that it's an interesting comparison. Good catch.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 9, 2006 16:19:55 GMT -5
If nothing else it's an interesting parallel with Firefly, when we saw Simon use someone else's life as leverage to get what he wanted. What I find interesting is that, based on the little bit of reaction on the 'net I've seen this morning, people don't have nearly the issue with Jack using his life-and-death power over Ben for his own reasons as they did with Juliet asking the same thing of him. I realize there are many differences, not the least of which is Juliet asked Jack to kill Ben outright, but in both cases it boils down to Jack betraying his oath as a doctor to "do no harm" for personal gain. So, like I said, interesting... I found that aspect of the story very distressing. Jack is, I don't quite know how to express this, losing what makes him Jack, his dedication to his calling. If Ben dies because of Jack's actions, Jack may not be able to live with himself, and if Jack can, I'd have serious reservations about his ability to perform as a surgeon. So I have issues with what Jack did, and they're big ones. Jack's actions are understandable, but not excusable, IMHO, if that makes sense. Anne, hoping some of this makes sense, because it won't come out coherent no matter how many times I retype it P.S. It does, however, make for interesting TV, and I hope we get to see the repercussions, on Jack and those close to him. I don't think that Jack would really let Ben die. He is, technically, in violation of his oath already, of course, because he's done harm to Ben's kidney, but - that would be true if he punched someone, too, and did harm to their face. To me, his action is basically an act of defense against aggressors, and a very controlled one, at that. I think Jack did the smart thing. He can't save himself, but he can try to save his friends (and in fact, he did save Sawyer) . . . which could lead to him being saved as well.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 9, 2006 16:23:56 GMT -5
Exactly. I'm finding it really hard to know exactly how to feel about Jack's actions. As the seasons have progressed, we've seen his clear-cut sense of right and wrong get seriously vagued up--I think it started with his participation in torturing Sawyer, myself. And standing by for so long while Sayid tortured Benry didn't help matters either. He's also learned to place trust in Kate, when in RL he'd have never even considered believing a fugitive from the law could be a good person, and been utterly betrayed by someone he thought of as principled and honest (Michael). So his moral compass certainly isn't what it used to be. However, we also know Jack's a damn good poker player. So who's to say he wasn't lying about the kidney sac and only having an hour to save Ben, faked making the little nick for the benefit of those he knew were watching, and instead screwed around with the heart monitor to make it seem as if Ben's life is in danger? Now that would be the mother of all bluffs... Hmm, I like that theory. We see Jack make a mysterious move with the scalpel, and the monitors go nuts. I think he really nicked that kidney. Though I agree he's a good poker player, in the sense that I think he's bluffing about letting Ben die. I admired Jack's smarts and independence and boldness here. He did great. He saved Sawyer and probably Kate, and increased his own chances of being saved. All with just a tiny, reparable nick to Ben (a nick he has, I think, every intention of repairing). He did great, and he's surely someone I'd pick for my team in a tough situation: resourceful, brave, etc.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 9, 2006 16:25:55 GMT -5
That gives me an idea: Jack's issues with his dad stemmed from his dad's drinking, which affected his dad as a surgeon and as a father. Jack's dad isn't perfect, and now neither is Jack. Nobody is perfect and right all the time, and maybe Jack needs to learn that so he can forgive his dad. The other question is, now that Sawyer and Kate have had sex, who gets offed? Sawyer's had sex twice now, so maybe he's next on the island hit list. Or maybe he's immune, due to the rioting that would ensue amongst certain S'cubies... LOL! Yeah - there'd be a mass exodus of viewership if they offed Sawyer. I just don't know about Kate and Sawyer. Sawyer asked her if she meant it when she told the Others that she loved him, or if she just did it to save his live. She didn't say anything - just kissed him, which spoke volumes. I think she loves Jack. I thought it said "I do" to Sawyer. Hard to say for sure, but I took her kiss as her Kate-way of telling Sawyer she loved him.
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Post by Matthew on Nov 9, 2006 16:31:26 GMT -5
That gives me an idea: Jack's issues with his dad stemmed from his dad's drinking, which affected his dad as a surgeon and as a father. Jack's dad isn't perfect, and now neither is Jack. Nobody is perfect and right all the time, and maybe Jack needs to learn that so he can forgive his dad. The other question is, now that Sawyer and Kate have had sex, who gets offed? Sawyer's had sex twice now, so maybe he's next on the island hit list. Or maybe he's immune, due to the rioting that would ensue amongst certain S'cubies... LOL! Yeah - there'd be a mass exodus of viewership if they offed Sawyer. I just don't know about Kate and Sawyer. Sawyer asked her if she meant it when she told the Others that she loved him, or if she just did it to save his live. She didn't say anything - just kissed him, which spoke volumes. I think she loves Jack. I find it entirely possible that she's head-over-heels for both of them. It does happen, it's just rather inconvenient.
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Post by Matthew on Nov 9, 2006 16:38:38 GMT -5
I found that aspect of the story very distressing. Jack is, I don't quite know how to express this, losing what makes him Jack, his dedication to his calling. If Ben dies because of Jack's actions, Jack may not be able to live with himself, and if Jack can, I'd have serious reservations about his ability to perform as a surgeon. So I have issues with what Jack did, and they're big ones. Jack's actions are understandable, but not excusable, IMHO, if that makes sense. Anne, hoping some of this makes sense, because it won't come out coherent no matter how many times I retype it P.S. It does, however, make for interesting TV, and I hope we get to see the repercussions, on Jack and those close to him. I don't think that Jack would really let Ben die. He is, technically, in violation of his oath already, of course, because he's done harm to Ben's kidney, but - that would be true if he punched someone, too, and did harm to their face. To me, his action is basically an act of defense against aggressors, and a very controlled one, at that. I think Jack did the smart thing. He can't save himself, but he can try to save his friends (and in fact, he did save Sawyer) . . . which could lead to him being saved as well. Well, we only have his word that he's injured the kidney. If need be, Juliet is experienced enough to suture off the renal artery and vein, and Benry can keep going on one kidney: but I don't remember anything that you can do TO a kidney that has anything like an hour window for recovery. It's a high-pressure filtration system that once you punch holes in it, well, splooey. No, I'm not a surgeon, nor did I stay at Holiday Inn Express, recently, but I've aced one of the hardest A & P classes in the state, (he said, cockily ) and read up on medical stuff frequently for fun. Looks like I will be doing some more research...
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 9, 2006 16:39:28 GMT -5
LOL! Yeah - there'd be a mass exodus of viewership if they offed Sawyer. I just don't know about Kate and Sawyer. Sawyer asked her if she meant it when she told the Others that she loved him, or if she just did it to save his live. She didn't say anything - just kissed him, which spoke volumes. I think she loves Jack. I think she loves both of them, but differently, if that makes sense. ETA: Jack is more like her husband, and Kate may feel she doesn't deserve to be happy with a "normal" guy (and she was a mite bored with the whole "taco night perfect housewife frilly apron" routine, I suspect). Kate is drawn to Sawyer because they're kindred spirits. I think Kate considers herself in love with Sawyer, but in reality, she has some pretty mixed feelings, along the lines you suggest.
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Post by Matthew on Nov 9, 2006 16:54:12 GMT -5
So why does Kate call Marshall Edward Marsh on religious holidays (he references that it's the Feast of the Ascencion, and implies she's done it before)?
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Post by Matthew on Nov 9, 2006 17:10:05 GMT -5
Incidentally, KevNathan's cop car is maked "Miami-Dade Police"
Maybe he'll wind up punching Horatio for something or other. Smug bugger deserves it...
(in the Other's gun pantry) Walther P-38(or P-1). Nice gun. Fires smoothly.... plus, better than Glocks in that it has an exposed hammer....
</ramble>
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Nov 9, 2006 17:12:55 GMT -5
So why does Kate call Marshall Edward Marsh on religious holidays (he references that it's the Feast of the Ascencion, and implies she's done it before)? As a form of penance?
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Post by Rachael on Nov 9, 2006 17:15:37 GMT -5
I found that aspect of the story very distressing. Jack is, I don't quite know how to express this, losing what makes him Jack, his dedication to his calling. If Ben dies because of Jack's actions, Jack may not be able to live with himself, and if Jack can, I'd have serious reservations about his ability to perform as a surgeon. So I have issues with what Jack did, and they're big ones. Jack's actions are understandable, but not excusable, IMHO, if that makes sense. Anne, hoping some of this makes sense, because it won't come out coherent no matter how many times I retype it P.S. It does, however, make for interesting TV, and I hope we get to see the repercussions, on Jack and those close to him. I don't think that Jack would really let Ben die. He is, technically, in violation of his oath already, of course, because he's done harm to Ben's kidney, but - that would be true if he punched someone, too, and did harm to their face. To me, his action is basically an act of defense against aggressors, and a very controlled one, at that. I think Jack did the smart thing. He can't save himself, but he can try to save his friends (and in fact, he did save Sawyer) . . . which could lead to him being saved as well. Actually... I was all set to post about how the Hippocratic Oath only applies to the care of patients, so Jack would be free to punch someone in the face, so long as they weren't his patient (which I still believe to be the case). But I thought I ought to read the actual oath, first, to be sure. Turns out "First, do no harm" is not part of the Oath at all, and never was. Here's the original: www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_classical.htmlAnd there are several modern versions, since the original isn't used anymore. Here's one: www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_modern.htmlOh, and here's a site that has both, plus the bit about where "no harm" comes from: www.geocities.com/everwild7/noharm.html
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