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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 21:37:19 GMT -5
Nan said: "And I, like Spike, thought that he was seeing FE at the end, right up until the moment she cut his bonds. And like everyone else, I found the change of expression on his face, and the way the tension in his shoulders just let go, absolutely magical. And it was exactly right that neither of them said a word. It was all understood. I submit that's even BETTER than a hug!
I too, think it was exactly right that no words passed between them. Words would have trivialized the moment. But better than a hug? Why should the two be mutually exclusive?
Now, I am really going to try to discipline myself here. For the next couple of hours at least I resolve to make a concentrated effort to get some work done here at Work. My incentive (apart from keeping my job) is that I'm *not allowed* to read Hunter's analysis of "Showtime" and the postings that followed until I've something to show for having been at Work today.
Wish me luck. Here I go.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 21:38:12 GMT -5
What I meant, but didn't say, that ME may be aiming at some different symmetry than the one I proposed. It's just a theory, based on what we've seen up until now and where the series seems to be going. Only the episodes as they develop will tell us whether the theory will finally fit or not.
I'm glad, Deborah and Alexandra, that you found some entertainment in my theorizing, whether or not it ends up panning out in practice.
Should we be moving discussions back to the episode board now, do you think?
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 21:39:11 GMT -5
Nan said: "Should we be moving discussions back to the episode board now, do you think?"
I'll second that.
Oops! Back to work. (Still haven't peeked on the Episode Board yet though.)
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 21:41:31 GMT -5
Nan, your theorizing was well done and thought provoking.
My own feeling is that it Buffy will never be turned into a vampire because . . . this is a lame explanation, I will think on how to explain it better . . . but because she's Buffy. Her essence will always be entirely and essentially good - no demon possession of any kind for our gal. My view of the way Joss runs the Buffyverse is that Buffy would be better off dead than bled.
What I could imagine is Spike being willing to give up his soul, and expecting Buffy to stake him immediately thereafter.
Or some other such angst filled scenario involving Anya or Willow going dark, and Xander and/or Buffy having to either stand by and let it happen, or even worse, be expected to destroy the result.
I also think Buffy dying is a real possiblity if SMG doesn't sign up for any kind of guest shots or anything.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 21:42:24 GMT -5
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 22:08:40 GMT -5
I'm in there with you. The Buffy vampification (it's a word I tell you!) had occurred to me. I must however add a tragic twist. Although I suspect a Romeo and Juliet ending à la Forever Night, I also don't rule out the tragic twist of Buffy being vampified just as Spike is made human. That would truly be heart breaking. (Though maybe not as heart breaking as the finale of Forever Night. Why oh why can't Canadian TV shows survive beyond 2 seasons if they aren't on the CBC?)
For those of you who missed Forever Knight, a quick synopsis. And if you couldn't care less, please feel free to move on to the next post at this point--
Nick Knight: 800 year old vamp, looking for redemption for his sins. Originaly a knight in the Crusades. Now--Police detective. Has an odd relationship with the local coroner, Nathalie. Loves her but doesn't dare love her. He may be tempted to kill her. That horrible blood lust still comes to the fore in moments of passion. Together they are seaching for a cure for vampirism. He in the mystical ways, and she with a keen scientific eye.
Final episode; They have concluded that they will be unable to make Nick human. (Although Jeanette, his sister vampire was made human through loving, really loving a man she married and drinking small doses of his blood over a long period of time.) Nick is convinced he lacks the self control to take such small doses and doesn't want to risk Nath's life.
In the end she succeeds in convincing him to turn her into a vampire like himself so she could finally be with him.
They decide to give it a try, but Nick is unable to stop driking at that final critical moment and Nathalie dies in his arms. Nick weeps savagely, and wordlessly hands a stake to his Sire(who for some reason has shown up at this critical juncture) and the last thing we see, is a stake poised to fall.
Romeo and Juliet at its finest. Let's hope that we do not see a repeat in the finale of BtBS. I would like to point out that Forever Knight began airing in 1994. When did Buffy begin to air? (And no that is not a retorical question.)
A really long post eh?
M. Watergal =^..^=
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 22:20:00 GMT -5
Buffy first aired in the U.S.A. on Monday, March 10, 1997.
I would have been extremely angry if I had watched Forever Night regularly. Another "Old Yeller".
Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 22:24:24 GMT -5
As the little ME monster said at the end of "Becoming Part 2": "Ooohh, I need a hug." ;-) Perhaps, in that cave, at last Spike & Buffy have become the most improbable thing ever, even according to Spike in "Lover's Walk" (S3): FRIENDS. And what a beautiful thing to build up a positive relationship on!
Oh, so much I want to say - but have been enjoying the discussions. So MANY intelligent, articulate SPIKE LOVERS out there - does my heart good!!! ;-)
Miss Pamela
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 22:25:15 GMT -5
Nan: "Should we be moving discussions back to the episode board now, do you think?"
Nah - I'm more comfortable here. Oh, I have posted some thoughts at the ep board regarding "Showtime", but it's STILL, as you vividly recall, not the Spike-friendliest place over there.
One guy, though entitled to his opinion, sorta got me with his "I don't see what was so great about the last scene - how can anyone feel good about Spike as he should never be forgiven for the (Miss Pamela: "GRR!ARRRGHH!" A/R." *sigh* They just won't drop it...
Miss Pamela
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 0:51:19 GMT -5
At www.slayage.com, there's a spoiler link from 07 Jan titled, "TV Gal Spoils 2003". The article contains more than one BTVS spoilers, but one in particular COULD and probably WILL provide some VERY INTERESTING ramifications for our favorite vampire. I've seen something similar to this in a great work of fanfic I've read - there, it really intensified the story. I'll say no more here about the spoiler, but I'd sure love to somehow know what some of you others thought of it if you read it - feel free even to e-mail me if you wish (my address is in my ScoopMe! profile). Miss Pamela
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 0:53:33 GMT -5
Earlier discussion gave me the following thoughts I wanted to share:
Buffy sees her relationship with Angel as all goodness & light, and her relationship with Spike as all darkness & perversity. There is very real goodness & light in the Angel/Buffy relationship, but Angel was quite wrong & weak, perverse even, in having sex with her as a shaky 17 yr old who (as he was quite aware) did not see him fully. The taint in that relationship is symbolized by Angel losing his soul.
There is very real darkness & perversity in Buffy’s relationship with Spike, but Spike – as Tara tells Buffy – really does love her and has done a lot of good. The spark of goodness in that relationship is symbolized by Spike obtaining his soul.
But if you step back even further, you see it isn’t even about good & bad, right & wrong. As I have read elsewhere (various places, which I would credit if I could remember) non-Buffy characters can be seen as representing parts of Buffy. Take a look at that idea in the light of Season 6:
WILLOW is her spirit – she grows dark. XANDER is her heart – he is afraid of taking a chance on love. GILES is her intellect – he’s absent!. ANGEL is her conscience - she still feels his presence, but she’s trying to ignore it. SPIKE is her instincts, her basic functions – she gives him full reign, she lets him, as she tells Holden Webster “take her over”.
She needs all these connections, they are essential. And they are morally neutral. It’s all about striking the right balance. As Morphy-Buffy tells Spike in the school basement, it’s not about right, it’s not about wrong, it’s all about the power.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 0:54:24 GMT -5
oooooh, Spring, you just keep thinking and writing and I will keep reading. I like it.
And to Alexandra: Thanks for the intro airdate. I wasn't sure whether Buffy or Forever Knight came first. I guess FKnight came up with the vamp/redemption thing on their own and didn't borrow it from Angel. (Probably borrowed it from elsewhere though.) And yes, Old Yeller it is. Sniff.
M. Watergal =^..^=
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 0:55:51 GMT -5
I'm guessing both of them are too sore from their respective trials for a hug.
Diane U
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 0:56:56 GMT -5
Does anyone know if there's a way to edit a message you previously posted
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 0:58:14 GMT -5
I think we have become *the obsession that dare not post* on the episode board. It's much more comfortable here.
Also, just wanted to point out to the Noferophysiologists among us, that JM looks like he's lost some of that *stopped smoking* weight he put on over the summer. Of course for Spike it was being chained to wall and not having access to the lerge number of Happy Meals he was consuming nightly.
Rusty Goode
I also wish they'd let his hair grow out a bit. I liked the dark root look. And you would assume that it's going to be kinda hard to run out and get a touch-up during an apocalypse
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