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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 20:01:07 GMT -5
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 20:24:25 GMT -5
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 21:11:50 GMT -5
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 21:14:14 GMT -5
OK, I said to myself recently, what is a vampire with a soul uniquely qualified to do in terms of an apocalypse--a do or die situation with the fate of the world in the balance--in the Buffyverse?
And I answered myself: Make a moral decision about turning someone else into a vampire.
Only Spike could or would turn Buffy into a vampire, if she consented to it and if the alternative were her death.
One possible answer to the knotty problem clarified by the eye-oracle (the All-seeing?) is that to restore the balance between Good and Evil, Buffy has to die. But this would not rule out her becoming a vampire.
The idea has much to recommend it: Buffy would in fact die, correcting the imbalance that has given the FE such current power, but would have the potential to remain active battling evil. She would NOT have a soul at that point, but her relationship to Spike could provide some check and guidance to her new vamp inclinations and instincts. It would finally spell out the recurring vague but crucial prophecy that a souled vamp will be the determining factor in the apocalypse. It would fulfill Buffy's Season 1 dream/nightmare about being vamped, a nice touch of recurrence/continuity. It would confirm the Primeval Slayer's and Dracula's contention that Buffy's Slayerness is rooted in darkness, another connection to what's gone before. She, like Spike, would become (potentially) immortal and darn near unkillable, with vamp perceptions and powers added to her own own special Slayer heritage of strength, resiliance, and quick healing. And the teamwork between Buffy and Spike would be awesome.
All in all, it fits.
So I can see one resolution to the season 7 impasse being that Buffy doesn't just sacrifice herself, doesn't just die, but becomes Buffy the Vampire Slayer in a whole different way.
She's out of the Slayer lineage now anyway. Her life has become her own. So why not?
Nan Dibble
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 21:15:41 GMT -5
Is it me or does this group of SIT's seem very callow? ...they are not a particularly engaging ... :
No, it's not you. It's that they are very like Buffy was when she was called. I don't recall the episode, she had not yet moved to Sunnydale and Angel was watching her from a blacked out car. She was every bit as callow as the new crop--or even more. These kids are YOUNG! Dawn's age, but without Dawn's experiences. They themselves admit to their own inexperience and un-readiness to assume a Slayer's mantle.
Babies, all
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 21:16:33 GMT -5
Torah: Forgive me if I misunderstood, this is kind of a hard medium for perfect communication.
It occurs to me that by "idealization" you think I mean that Buffy had puppy love for Angel, in the way a junior high girl might like one cute guy one week, and another one the next week. I don't mean this at all.
I don't mean to trivialize it in any way. It was real, and it was based on real things. Buffy loved Angel for his good qualities, his courage and valor, etc., and he actually had these things. What she saw was real, and what she felt was real and deep and important.
What I mean by idealization is that it wasn't mature, adult love basically because she wasn't a mature adult. She had that teenage starry-eyed intensity going, the kind that makes it impossible for her to see THE WHOLE picture, to see all the bad and all the good, everything as it is and love him all the same.
If you are arguing that it was mature adult love, then yes, we definitely disagree. If you are saying it was real, based on real things, and not just a passing fancy based on Angel's pretty eyes, then definitely, I agree 100%.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 21:19:55 GMT -5
If Buffy were to be turned, she wouldn't have a soul, so how would she be able to fulfill the prophecy of a vampire with a soul? The idea is intriguing and Joss has brought up the Buffy as vampire theme before, but I don't think that this particular prophecy pertains to this show. I could be wrong, but I don't see it.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 21:20:43 GMT -5
How could I argue that it was mature adult love, when she wasn't an adult? Even her relationship with Riley wasn't mature adult love. Yes Buffy was blinded by her love of Angel in the beginning (that is what you are talking about, yes?)but once he chose to give her up, I think she was more able to see the whole picture and still love him. Of course everything else is just speculation because they haven't interacted with one another in a very long time.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 21:22:27 GMT -5
My little one is not very little (teen) but he is very sick, as in "might be looking at another long hospital stay" seriously ill. I just say this not for sympathy or because I want to discuss it any further in any way, but just to tell you all how nice I find this board. Discussion is so civil and high level and such a wonderful, wonderful distraction.
Again - thanks for the pic links, speaking of wonderful distractions!!
Very interesting ideas on last night's ep. Alexandra, I am particularly intrigued with the idea that the Eye was talking about Faith when it apparently told Angel & Giles that the problem was that the Slayer lives.
The episode made me cry last night. It made me cry from when Buffy started fighting the Turok to when she led Spike out of the cave.
SMG & JM - they were wonderful in that last scene. And I liked the way the path was lit by torches, which has been all long a symbol of Spike & Buffy's love.
Buffy is going to struggle mightly for awhile, I think, in regard to her feelings for Spike. She isn't ready to admit she loves him, but I do see it heading that way.
Unfortunately, I do not think any declarations of love will be followed by happily-ever-after endings.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 21:23:48 GMT -5
Sorry - this was a repeat post I somehow accidentally posted twice
Spring Summers
Edited By Spring Summers at 1/8/2003 10:27:00 AM
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 21:25:41 GMT -5
OH MY GOD.
Nan, you're brilliant.
I don't know if you have figured out what Joss/ME have in store for us but as I was reading your posting I could just feel everything beautifully clicking into place, metaphorically speaking.
I have not been able to figure out what's coming beyond a nagging dread that Spike has been for some time been being carefully set-up for an ultimate, Christ-like sacrifice.
I didn't think Buffy would be the one to be sacrificed because she's already died twice, unless they were going for 'the third times the charm' kind of thing.
Alexandra's suggestion that the Oracle had been referring to Faith rather than Buffy when it pronounced that the Slayer allowed TFE to become so powerful didn't fit for me. That solution, while sparing Buffy for a possible happily ever after ending with Spike, didn't allow for addressing the dire repercussions from Buffy's resurrection by Willow, Tara, Xander & Anya. As Spike forecast at the time, "There's always consequences" and it just makes perfect sense that TFE's emergence would be directly linked to that deed. Definitely worthy of Joss/ME.
Spring has been credited with originally suggesting one of the Scoobie's would be a willing sacrifice to the dark side. I confess, I don't really remember the post and am going by the recent posts predicting this and crediting Spring with having the idea in the first place. But that it would be Buffy- (oh my God, I am so excited by the symmetry and poetry and grandeur of this ending that I'm just groping for words here), restores the balance of nature, allows her, the star of the show, to be the sacrifice and hero in a completely new way, it allows ensouled and redeemed Spike, who as I mentioned earlier has been set up as a Christ-like figure, to resurrect Buffy into an immortal rather but from a state of grace and on the side of good, rather then being the grand sacrifice himself- (didn't Jesus raise the dead?), (which btw, ties in very nicely with how he used to tell her she was drawn to the dark and belonged in the dark with him) and, best of all, it allows Spike and Buffy that *happily ever after* ending in a way that doesn't *defy the laws of nature* (not that their being together as a vampire/human couple ever worried me, but ME told us it could never work).
Truly spectacular.
Nan, after reading your post I stopped immediately to reply and have been at it a while (thank God my boss is out today) so I haven't yet read any other feed back to your idea, which I would guess must be considerable by now. I look forward to finally finishing this and getting on with finding out what everyone else thinks.
Oh, how I wish all of us posters could watch the rest of the season together in RL. I, for one, would benefit from the commradary and moral support. I watch the show alone and can't get to this Board til the following day. The suspense is reaching unbearable heights, but at the same time I want it to go on because I'm so loathe for the series to end.
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 21:30:13 GMT -5
Spring said: "SMG & JM - they were wonderful in that last scene. And I liked the way the path was lit by torches, which has been all long a symbol of Spike & Buffy's love."
Did anyone else thing we were finally going to see an all out hug, after Spike gripped Buffy's shoulder and realized she was real, and then felt disappointed when they didn't follow through? It definitely seemed like an appropriate hug moment. And I don't mean a romantic hug. It's just that all the emotions that were conveyed between them seemed to be leading to a hug. I for one, think they both deserved that hug. But they still held back from such close, physical contact. Watching Buffy supporting Spike as they left the cave presented a picture of two equals, mutually respecting and caring comrads, which I really liked. But I just wish it had been preceeded by a hug.
That's me. Never satisfied.
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 21:34:18 GMT -5
Spike is the vamp with the soul, not Buffy. Maybe I didn't quite make that clear.
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 21:35:17 GMT -5
After reading Nan's theory on Buffy turning vampire, I'm very impressed and like her postulation much better than the Faith one. The virtue of my theory was that Buffy and Spike stay together and Faith bites the big one (sorry, not a big Faith fan and quite willing to toss her to the FE to save Spuffy.)
I will put in an added piece that completes Nan's story arc. Willow conjures up a soul for Buffy after she is turned. Willow was able to re-soul Angel using her magicks in "Becoming, Part Two". She should be able to do the same for Buffy. Willow is so much more powerful than she was in Season 2, the re-souling of Buffy should present no problem.
Spring - Re the pics, you're welcome. I like trolling for miscellaneous information and hope I don't overload this site with excess. I try to be very selective, but I always want to share the best pics.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 21:36:14 GMT -5
Or not, as the case may be.
ME is famous for not doing the expected...no matter how outre the expected may be.
I put it forward only as a theory that fits most of the series' dynamic up to this point. Future events may make it impossible, inappropriate, or both.
And I, like Spike, thought that he was seeing FE at the end, right up until the moment she cut his bonds. And like everyone else, I found the change of expression on his face, and the way the tension in his shoulders just let go, absolutely magical. And it was exactly right that neither of them said a word. It was all understood. I submit that's even BETTER than a hug!
Nan
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