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Post by William the Bloody on Sept 25, 2004 9:33:41 GMT -5
The games afoot!
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Sept 25, 2004 16:24:28 GMT -5
Spring, thanks for stepping up and doing this review and doing it really well. I enjoyed your review - it helped me see more clearly what is going on in this pilot episode. Or rather, having it articulated verified it for me?
I said a big silent 'yes!' when you talked about how alike Logan and Veronica are - how changed they both are. Logan's pain was so real when he talked to Veronica after the murder, etc.
I hope so much he is not the one who raped Veronica.
Thanks also for talking about how Veronica is using tactics which in my opinion will only bring her more pain, and kill even more of what she is or was before.
I hope you'll continue to review this show? Maybe with a guest review here and there as well. I know having your reviews will make me enjoy the show more.
edit: I see that Sue is going to be alternating with you - that's great! This season will be fun after all!
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Post by Becky H on Sept 25, 2004 17:27:18 GMT -5
Wow, Spring, I genuflect in the general direction of Illinois. This was a great opening review. I especially liked the focus on Logan and on the parallels between him and Veronica. I know they both have hard crusts but I'm wondering if Logan might also have a marshmallow interior. At first he seemed to me to be merely a version of the obnoxious guy played by Matthew Lillard in She's All That but I think there's more going on there. In fact, dare I say Logan might turn out to be another Cordelia?
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 25, 2004 17:44:09 GMT -5
Spring, thanks for stepping up and doing this review and doing it really well. I enjoyed your review - it helped me see more clearly what is going on in this pilot episode. Or rather, having it articulated verified it for me? Thank you for the positive feedback. I do think that the things I notice when I'm analyzing an ep are things that I was sort of subconsciously absorbing anyhow, if you know what I mean. I had the same thought, about Veronica's rape. I'd say almost certainly not though, on whether Logan is the mystery rapist. I mean - I think we're meant to wonder, but I think we are getting a deliberate mislead on that. Just the feeling I get - Logan is not the sneaky sort. He doesn't damage Veronica's car in the middle of the night; he does it right in front of her. For that reason and because of what you mentioned about his very real pain over losing Lily, I just don't think it's Logan. The plan right now is for Sue and me to alternate doing reviews - one week me, one week Sue. If anyone out there is interested in joining us in some way - doing a simultaneous guest review or becoming a regularly scheduled reviewer, IM one of us and we'll talk! |
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Post by Laura on Sept 25, 2004 17:49:48 GMT -5
Spring, I'll add my thanks to Patti's -- so great of you to do this review! (Does doing your Spike-analyses help when you do other reviews?)
One thing I didn't pick up when I watched the episode (but I did when I read the review) was the whole Mars/Neptune connection -- and frankly, I didn't realize that they were in California (I wasn't paying that much attention to detail) -- I thought they were in Neptune, Florida. But I liked the way you dissected the events of Veronica's life as we've been shown them. She's been a victim, and now, after being lost in space, she's on her way to being queen -- with a gushy marshmallow center.
But as you've mentioned it -- what should we make of the names "Mars" and "Neptune"? I'm not sure it's got to do with planets as opposed to classical mythology -- perhaps the writers are going for "bigger" themes here.
Neptune was the Roman god of the sea. In addition to the whole thing being set on the coast (there's the obvious sea connection), Lily's dead body was found by the family pool -- the waters of oblivion. I wonder how many water-y images we'll see as the series progresses?
Mars was the Roman god of war. Veronica's life has been subjected to a lot of upheavals -- death, rape, humilation, abandonment -- all tragedies attendant upon warfare and conflict. And now it seems that Veronica is fighting back. She's fighting for the underdog Wallace, she's fighting for her father's reputation, she's fighting for herself.
Also, while we're talking about names -- Veronica comes from the Latin vera icon, meaning "true image."
So, what's the "true image" of Veronica Mars? Victim or warrior queen?
Again, Spring, nice job. Can't wait for the next one.[/size]
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 25, 2004 17:52:12 GMT -5
Wow, Spring, I genuflect in the general direction of Illinois. Well, I guess you might be facing Ohio then . . . That's OK. All these midwest states can kinda blur together. At least you didn't confuse us with Michigan, as deb did one time. When it comes to comparisons to BtVS, it seemed like this to me: Veronica = Buffy Dad = Joyce and/or Giles Mom = Hank Duncan = Angel (first true love, leaves her) Logan = Spike (lots like the dark side of Veronica) Lily & Co = Buffy's friends at . . . Hemery (?) High, before everything changed and she moved to Sunnydale Wallace = Xander (true blue friend) Sheriff Lamb, other authorities = Principal Snyder, other authorities I can see where Logan is a "Cordy" type as well - and yes, I do think that like Cordy, there is going to be a lot more to Logan than his tough-guy exterior. We sure need a "Willow" though, don't we? I hope we get one. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 25, 2004 18:02:30 GMT -5
Spring, I'll add my thanks to Patti's -- so great of you to do this review! (Does doing your Spike-analyses help when you do other reviews?) Yes - I've learned a lot about what all goes into good scriptwriting, and how to look for it, from doing my BtVS analyses. The planet names have to do with the classical names, so it's all one big happy mix, I'd say. I mean, it refers to both - I can definitely see it especially with the warrior thing you mention below. There is a mention of "Earth" in the script. I forget where. One BIG difference in doing this review (from the BtVS ones) was not having any kind of transcript whatsoever. It limited me because I'm not used to that. But I'll get used to it. [/color][/size] [/quote] Thanks for this excellent contribution to the discussion Laura. Also, I wanted to mention here, talking about name symbolism, that I thought the whole "who killed Lilly, "Kane" or Abel thing was meant to remind us of the Biblical account of the first murder - the brother did it, that time. I don't know that the finger is necessarily pointing at Duncan, but it does suggest, to me, that it was "all in the family." Or I could be reading too much into those names, but . . . Abel is such an odd name, it seems deliberately chosen. Exactly why, though, it is hard to say. |
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Post by Karen on Sept 25, 2004 18:08:34 GMT -5
Well, I guess you might be facing Ohio then . . . That's OK. All these midwest states can kinda blur together. At least you didn't confuse us with Michigan, as deb did one time. When it comes to comparisons to BtVS, it seemed like this to me: Veronica = Buffy Dad = Joyce and/or Giles Mom = Hank Duncan = Angel (first true love, leaves her) Logan = Spike (lots like the dark side of Veronica) Lily & Co = Buffy's friends at . . . Hemery (?) High, before everything changed and she moved to Sunnydale Wallace = Xander (true blue friend) Sheriff Lamb, other authorities = Principal Snyder, other authorities I can see where Logan is a "Cordy" type as well - and yes, I do think that like Cordy, there is going to be a lot more to Logan than his tough-guy exterior. We sure need a "Willow" though, don't we? I hope we get one. Loved your review, Spring. And everyone's comments on the show. (Laura - your disecting of the names is fascinating. "Vera icon", especially. Buffy was an icon. I think Veronica may be, too.) I'm certainly glad that Sue rammed this one down our throats passionately recommended that we watch VM. Let's just keep our fingers crossed that enough of the general public gets on board, too. I liked your comparison to the Buffy characters. I had thought that the leader of the "gang" paralleled more with Spike's early character. Maybe we'll see Weevil have some of the same sort of forward development with his character as well. *rubs hand together* I love having all this new stuff to chew on.  Still missing the Jossverse, tho. I saw Buffy take a sledgehammer to the Masters bones today. Each scene a little story in itself. |
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Post by Laura on Sept 25, 2004 18:12:30 GMT -5
Yes - I've learned a lot about what all goes into good scriptwriting, and how to look for it, from doing my BtVS analyses. The planet names have to do with the classical names, so it's all one big happy mix, I'd say. I mean, it refers to both - I can definitely see it especially with the warrior thing you mention below. There is a mention of "Earth" in the script. I forget where. One BIG difference in doing this review (from the BtVS ones) was not having any kind of transcript whatsoever. It limited me because I'm not used to that. But I'll get used to it. Thanks for this excellent contribution to the discussion Laura. Also, I wanted to mention here, talking about name symbolism, that I thought the whole "who killed Lilly, "Kane" or Abel thing was meant to remind us of the Biblical account of the first murder - the brother did it, that time. I don't know that the finger is necessarily pointing at Duncan, but it does suggest, to me, that it was "all in the family." Or I could be reading too much into those names, but . . . Abel is such an odd name, it seems deliberately chosen. Exactly why, though, it is hard to say.
But I agree, it's just too odd a name juxtaposition not to be pointing an accusatory finger elsewhere. We'll have to wait and see.[/size] |
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Post by Laura on Sept 25, 2004 18:16:48 GMT -5
www.soulfulspike.com/vmars/VMep1.htmLoved your review, Spring. And everyone's comments on the show. (Laura - your disecting of the names is fascinating. "Vera icon", especially. Buffy was an icon. I think Veronica may be, too.) I'm certainly glad that Sue rammed this one down our throats passionately recommended that we watch VM. Let's just keep our fingers crossed that enough of the general public gets on board, too.I liked your comparison to the Buffy characters. I had thought that the leader of the "gang" paralleled more with Spike's early character. Maybe we'll see Weevil have some of the same sort of forward development with his character as well. *rubs hand together* I love having all this new stuff to chew on. Still missing the Jossverse, tho. I saw Buffy take a sledgehammer to the Masters bones today. Each scene a little story in itself.
And yes, all thanks to Sue for her encouragement. I thought that I was going to be watching Father of the Pride on Tuesday nights -- clearly, I was mistaken. Thanks Sue![/size] |
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 25, 2004 18:21:46 GMT -5
www.soulfulspike.com/vmars/VMep1.htmLoved your review, Spring. And everyone's comments on the show. (Laura - your disecting of the names is fascinating. "Vera icon", especially. Buffy was an icon. I think Veronica may be, too.) I'm certainly glad that Sue rammed this one down our throats passionately recommended that we watch VM. Let's just keep our fingers crossed that enough of the general public gets on board, too. I liked your comparison to the Buffy characters. I had thought that the leader of the "gang" paralleled more with Spike's early character. Maybe we'll see Weevil have some of the same sort of forward development with his character as well. *rubs hand together* I love having all this new stuff to chew on. Still missing the Jossverse, tho. I saw Buffy take a sledgehammer to the Masters bones today. Each scene a little story in itself. Yes - Weevil is somewhat "Spikey" also. Logan just seemed more "Spike" to me because he has a bit of the "love's bitch" going for him, which Weevil has not at all. I really thought that like Veronica (and Buffy, and Spike), Logan toughened up after having his heartbroken. And he was Duncan's sidekick (as in Angel & Spike, sorta, kinda). I wonder how deliberate the parallels are? Some of it seems very much so. The one that strikes me the hardest is how much alike the pictures are of "Buffy pre-Slayerhood vs Buffy after-Slayerhood" and "Veronica pre-murder/rape vs Veronica after-murder/rape." Seeing Veronica all girly reminded me so much of Becoming Part I, when we see Whistler take Angel to see Buffy, and she's all little-girl, shallow HS queen. |
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Post by Karen on Sept 25, 2004 18:25:09 GMT -5
Karen, I just have to say this made me LOL!
And yes, all thanks to Sue for her encouragement. I thought that I was going to be watching Father of the Pride on Tuesday nights -- clearly, I was mistaken. Thanks Sue! [/size][/quote]  Glad I made you chuckle, Laura. I tried to watch FotP, but it failed to grab me. I like my characters flesh and blood, I guess. IT looks like I'll be watching "Clubhouse" and "VM" on Tuesdays. |
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Post by Sue on Sept 25, 2004 20:32:08 GMT -5
Spring--
Great analysis and quick too!
I missed the Kane/Abel thing good catch. That's one of those clever little touches I liked.
I also liked your point out that Veronica wants to deal with life via film to by remote control. Direct involvement has hurt her too much.
And wanting to be the wizard vs having to go see the wizard. Good stuff.
Now I'm going to copy over some comments I made early this morning on the main thread because they are more appropriate here:
And with that folks, I will post a few specifics about VM which tickled me. Most the reaction has been fairly generalized so far and I can definitely see where the overload of backstory and angst might have dulled the pleasure for some (not me, but I can see how it could).
Still, one of the things that makes any show rise above mediocre is the small touches:
1. Level of dialogue: (vocabulary, sentence structure/complexity, metaphors, allusions--good writing is good writing whether in a book or on TV);
2. Character development--did the dialogue and interaction with other characters really give us a sense of who the characters are? In this case it was mainly VM who was fleshed out but a fair amount of development other characters: Wallace, dad, Logan (evil rich kid), Weevil (motorcycle guy) also took place.
3. Future character development: Well, we've yet to see, but despite the ton of backstory thrown at us I feel like there is still so much more to explore: Duncan (he knows more about his sister's death than he's telling); the dead sister; clearly the suspicious Mr. Kane; VM's dad, VM's mom.
4. The supporting cast: It's a fine line between have all of the "stock" characters (ditzy blond, smart geek, etc). Buffy did this so well--Willow, Xander, Cordelia, Giles--they could have been stock supporting characters but they weren't. They were subly different and so much more. On the other hand, you need to be careful lest your supporting characters are so outrageous as to be caricatures. I loved the supporting cast touches:
Olga: at the courthouse. She was unique.
The sleezy lawyer: loved him.
The weird sheriff and his Wizard of Oz obsession: he was creepy and horrid and I hate him and loved seeing him get screwed (altho, yeah, it did get the bad motorcycle guys off--very, very gray that subplot)
Duncan's "defense" of VM--"leave her alone". I notice he's not pursuing a vendetta.
Logan--yeah, he's bad but hey--his girlfriend's dead and he probably really does believe that VM's dad hounded the family unfairly and VM set him up in the locker search. Not justifying his behavior I'm just saying that it didn't come out of left field with no basis like a lesser show would have done.
Mrs. Kane: surprised me. Not the "trophy wife" I expected. Her scene in the detective agency was very "noir-ish". She looked and acted like someone out of the 40's.
the Principal: he's almost normal; he's leery of Veronica, but not necessarily her enemy.
5. The Mission Impossible/McGyver vibe of the evidence tape caper. Yeah, totally implausible ( yet just barely possible enough) but so wonderfully detailed and hung together:
a. Wallace's knowledge of remote control pre-established by the airplane stuff
b. the locker sting (also pre-established)
c. the fireman making the switch (!). Sure it was far-fetched but since I thought Veronica was going to try to sneak in under the smoke it was a pleasant surprise. And--again the plot gave an explanation--"a lot of people here still like my dad." Whether you thought it was sufficient or not--at least the writer (Rob Thomas) is covering his very-well thought out and complex bases.
d. so, now the incriminating tape is missing but is that the end of it? No! She's substituted a second tape which kills 3 birds with one stone: ruins the case against the bikers; takes car of the other client--Loretta Cancun (love the name); and embarasses the sheriff. Gotta love it.
Other small, but wonderful, moments:
"You and your little dog, too." (another Oz reference--wouldn't Weezil hate the idea that he was paralleling the sheriff?)
"Take Back-up". The dog's name is Backup! Loved it!
The tazer--excellent thinking.
Logan not apologizing even when being beaten by Weevil. Don't like the guy but he's not one-dimensional and I like being surprised by a character's behavior.
What's not to like:
Well, the ton of backstory and the voiceovers didn't bother me personally at all. I think there is still so much to discover. Apparently Mr. Thomas knows he only has 13 episodes ordered and it looks like he has worked on two other short-lived TV shows so he's not wasting any time.
BUT--the date-rape storyline--hated it. On top of everything else it was just too much. And then the way the sheriff treated her. And--how could her dad not find out, and how could she put it behind her (maybe she hasn't?). That's one part of the story I'd have been happy to leave out.
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Post by Sue on Sept 25, 2004 20:35:14 GMT -5
I'm certainly glad that Sue rammed this one down our throats passionately recommended that we watch VM. ;D Well, miss karen, you are certainly most welcome. Altho I think Rob's positive reaction and Vlad also had something to do with it.  |
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Post by Sue on Sept 25, 2004 20:36:30 GMT -5
Karen, I just have to say this made me LOL!
And yes, all thanks to Sue for her encouragement. I thought that I was going to be watching Father of the Pride on Tuesday nights -- clearly, I was mistaken. Thanks Sue! [/size][/quote] Maybe I better hold off on taking "credit" until we see where this goes. But thanks. |
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Still missing the Jossverse, tho. I saw Buffy take a sledgehammer to the Masters bones today. Each scene a little story in itself.
Glad I made you chuckle, Laura. I tried to watch FotP, but it failed to grab me. I like my characters flesh and blood, I guess.
