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Post by Pixi on Jun 15, 2005 5:04:03 GMT -5
www.soulfulspike.com/vmars/VMep1.htmLoved your review, Spring. And everyone's comments on the show. (Laura - your disecting of the names is fascinating. "Vera icon", especially. Buffy was an icon. I think Veronica may be, too.) I'm certainly glad that Sue rammed this one down our throats passionately recommended that we watch VM. Let's just keep our fingers crossed that enough of the general public gets on board, too. I liked your comparison to the Buffy characters. I had thought that the leader of the "gang" paralleled more with Spike's early character. Maybe we'll see Weevil have some of the same sort of forward development with his character as well. *rubs hand together* I love having all this new stuff to chew on. Still missing the Jossverse, tho. I saw Buffy take a sledgehammer to the Masters bones today. Each scene a little story in itself. Yes - Weevil is somewhat "Spikey" also. Logan just seemed more "Spike" to me because he has a bit of the "love's bitch" going for him, which Weevil has not at all. I really thought that like Veronica (and Buffy, and Spike), Logan toughened up after having his heartbroken. And he was Duncan's sidekick (as in Angel & Spike, sorta, kinda). I wonder how deliberate the parallels are? Some of it seems very much so. The one that strikes me the hardest is how much alike the pictures are of "Buffy pre-Slayerhood vs Buffy after-Slayerhood" and "Veronica pre-murder/rape vs Veronica after-murder/rape." Seeing Veronica all girly reminded me so much of Becoming Part I, when we see Whistler take Angel to see Buffy, and she's all little-girl, shallow HS queen. I love going back and reading these comments. Spring - you nailed Logan right from the start. Sigh - it was very interesting to watch the pilot again after the wild ride this year was. Course being a loganfanatic I paid particular attention to all his scenes. His fantastic acting abilities are on display immediately with the crying scene and all the emotions and voice levels in the scene on the beach. Veronica is quite a tough, hurting cookie is this first episode.
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Post by Pixi on Jun 15, 2005 5:08:45 GMT -5
Well, I don't know how many of you watched the repeat, but I found myself seeing tons of stuff I'd either missed the first time or forgotten. (And, since I didn't take notes I'm forgetting again). For one--she did mention that the breakup came before the murder. 2) Duncan's condition the night of the murder. (Very glazed.) 3) "Who's your daddy?" -- in the very first episode (to be repeated in Meet John Smith; the one about the neighbor with the baby and the one with Mac. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. 4) something about what dad's do is protect their daughters. 5) Mr. Kane's sexual appetite has disappeared. (well, his daughter was murdered.) 6) They mentioned the tennis shoes (and a backpack) being found on Abel's houseboat. There was more. They packed so much backstory into 40 minutes--quite amazing. And interesting how the relationships have already changed in 12 episodes. Eatah on the relationship changes. ;D Yes - I think the emphasis on Daddy and the way video played such a strong role - something Lola pointed out awhile ago - were little clues Rob tossed here and there. I found myself catching these references to the Wizard going going whahuh? I remember hearing them the first time and all the elaborate theories concerning VM and Wizard of Oz. Which I really can't remember now but they still seem out of place for Sheriff Lamb. I mean does he really impress you as someone who watches the Wizard of Oz? Course you have Celeste the Wicked Witch front and center. I had to see the last 5 minutes of Britney while I was waiting for the show to start- blech, blech.
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Post by Lola m on Jun 15, 2005 7:14:39 GMT -5
I did notice "Corny" was in the Pilot (shows up later and asks V is she wants to go to White Castle). He set up the bong (?) that was planted in Logan's locker and gives V a high five when the locker is inspected. Weevil and gang were pretty dangerous seeming and aggressive. Not sure if they were softened up or just not used enough toward the end. Hoping to see more of Weevil next season. --------- Ah, Logan. Even from the very beginning when he was just plain not nice. He still manages to draw the eye and attention in whatever scene he is in. I'm wondering if Corny (also) made the bong. I mean, she was showing him drawings, and I can't remember what classroom he's in, but art or science would be very fitting, if he made the bong so it would be a smoke bomb thing-y. I think it's the gang as a whole that is more scary at first. Weevil is scary and tough, too, but I think he still is later. We've just seen more sides to him and seen him away from the other guys. Also, even in this first ep, we see him as somewhat of a restraining influence on the rest of the guys (just like Veronica is a restraining influence on him, when he's hitting Logan). Yup. Right from the start we see more than one side to Logan. Scary, psychotic asshole - sad and hurt friend and boyfriend - oddly willing to take a beating and just keep snarking.
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Post by Lola m on Jun 15, 2005 7:15:23 GMT -5
Well this was very interesting. To compare reactions on first seeing, on re-watching part way through the season and now at the end. I'ts scary to read some of the things we were talking about right from the start. The comparison of Logan to Spike and the feeling that there was going to be more to his character. Noting the glazed reaction of Duncan. The emphasis on fathers. And of course the clues that I see now. Others have mentioned earlier that cameras and video tape being heavily featured is a definite clue - the camera doesn't lie - as well as the two boys talking about "the Lilly Kane tape". I also wonder about Veronica's description of Logan as "psychotic" (hmmmmm, an Echolls who is psychotic . . . where will we see that?) along with Logan's later comments about his father punishing him by taking away his car (yeah, like we believe it was just that). So dad is "present" in the first ep, not seen, but present.Ah, how I wish they were showing all the eps in order - that they had time to re-run the whole season. Not only because I would love to have the first 7 or 8 eps on tape, but also to have the fun of watching the whole thing over again. Only this time, knowing a lot of the answers. I caught that, too. That's one major clue, I think. I like CB's hair shorter, too. I wonder if she'll cut it for next year. Always worrying about the hair.... ;D
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Post by Lola m on Jun 15, 2005 7:21:31 GMT -5
Yes - Weevil is somewhat "Spikey" also. Logan just seemed more "Spike" to me because he has a bit of the "love's bitch" going for him, which Weevil has not at all. I really thought that like Veronica (and Buffy, and Spike), Logan toughened up after having his heartbroken. And he was Duncan's sidekick (as in Angel & Spike, sorta, kinda). I wonder how deliberate the parallels are? Some of it seems very much so. The one that strikes me the hardest is how much alike the pictures are of "Buffy pre-Slayerhood vs Buffy after-Slayerhood" and "Veronica pre-murder/rape vs Veronica after-murder/rape." Seeing Veronica all girly reminded me so much of Becoming Part I, when we see Whistler take Angel to see Buffy, and she's all little-girl, shallow HS queen. I love going back and reading these comments. Spring - you nailed Logan right from the start. Sigh - it was very interesting to watch the pilot again after the wild ride this year was. Course being a loganfanatic I paid particular attention to all his scenes. His fantastic acting abilities are on display immediately with the crying scene and all the emotions and voice levels in the scene on the beach. Veronica is quite a tough, hurting cookie is this first episode. I really noticed the tough bits of Veronica here too, and also how we are already being giving glimpses of her "marshmallow-ness". Harshly saying "who said you could sit here" to Wallace, then realizing how much this is like the 09ers and amending it. Standing up to Weevil's gang and confidently tailing Mr Kane and pulling a "gotcha" on the sherrif, but being utterly broken by the realization that it was her mom in the hotel room. I loved the way the way she is confused and mad about her dad lying, but then moves right to knowing he loves her and is probably doing it for a good reason. We really got all the elements of the show right from the start. Way more than I realized at the time.
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Post by ElleKC on Jun 15, 2005 12:53:32 GMT -5
Lola is so right, Rob Thomas had the elements of the show down from the start. He must have really thought things through before pitching the show to the networks. It's just too bad its on UPN and not one of the majors.
A couple of small things I only saw in the second viewing: 1. Veronica's empty locker, except for the valentine pin-up of the principal. 2. The bong that Versonica "gives" Logan is shaped like Cupid!
It's interesting to see Veronica's interactions with Duncan and Logan, knowing what we know now. Logan is the one who communicates more with Veronica (and by extension, the viewers) in the pilot, not Duncan. Duncan is obviously in the fog and it's only when Logan harasses her that he snaps out of it.
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Post by leftylady on Jun 15, 2005 17:07:45 GMT -5
A few thoughts:
First of all, no one has commented on the Veronica promo shot. I mean the white shirt/blue pants pose. Is UPN invoking the Buffster or what? All Veronica needed was a stake!
I did not see the Pilot when it was rerun earlier in the year so it's been 21 eps since I saw it last. I think it definitely held up well after seeing the season play out. I had recently read some essays at Tea at the Ford about narrative structure with comments that with BtVS complex seasonal and character arcs viewing in rerun made for better appreciation than viewing original episodes when the longterm perspective could inform the unfolding story and the viewer could see the richness of texture in both plot and characters. VM very much holds to this standard also.
Love all the little details that tied into the season's finish. Lots there right from the start. I could almost count them off from memory fromour discussions here!!
But I get some sort of vibe that I can't quite put my finger on, that maybe Aaron was not the originally intended killer. Something about the Logan moments and knowing that his importance to RT and the viewers grew as the chemistry with everyone just kept getting better and better makes me wonder if RT was, pre-season, going to make Logan the disposable villain but changed his plans to fit what he saw on the screen. (Ooh, another Spike parallel!). And therefore, Aaron, NOT in the Pilot directly, was shifted into the hot seat. I see the "video" connection clearly but the "Aaron" clue in the Pilot is a bit of a stretch.
Had forgotten what Backup #1 looked like. Not even a close match to BU#2!
That's all for now. Maybe more after I think about the Pilot again or after viewing Return of the Kane tonight!
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Post by KMInfinity on Jun 15, 2005 18:51:26 GMT -5
We really got all the elements of the show right from the start. Way more than I realized at the time. Yep. The pilot really stands the test of rewatchability. In hindsight, I am just in awe of the tightly plotted connections from the first epsiode to the finale.....and yet, so character driven. And all the pop culture/erudite/snarky/cool comments - maybe even more dense than in a Buffy or Gilmore Girls episode. I was especially watching to see how the conflicts were presented. Logan is clearly already on the outs with Weevil before the scene with W pasting him, I think. Veronica and her dad are presented with just a hint of a suggestion that they aren't a solid team...which now is clearly a red herring. Others? At 9:30 I felt like I'd already seen the whole show and was surprised that it was only half over. Usually, I have a good sense of time passage. So, I think it's a positive that I'm so engrossed the second time around I don't realize the clock's ticking.
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Post by Pixi on Jun 15, 2005 21:37:43 GMT -5
Lola is so right, Rob Thomas had the elements of the show down from the start. He must have really thought things through before pitching the show to the networks. It's just too bad its on UPN and not one of the majors. A couple of small things I only saw in the second viewing: 1. Veronica's empty locker, except for the valentine pin-up of the principal. 2. The bong that Versonica "gives" Logan is shaped like Cupid!It's interesting to see Veronica's interactions with Duncan and Logan, knowing what we know now. Logan is the one who communicates more with Veronica (and by extension, the viewers) in the pilot, not Duncan. Duncan is obviously in the fog and it's only when Logan harasses her that he snaps out of it. I love that. Very good point.
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Post by Pixi on Jun 15, 2005 21:42:07 GMT -5
A few thoughts: First of all, no one has commented on the Veronica promo shot. I mean the white shirt/blue pants pose. Is UPN invoking the Buffster or what? All Veronica needed was a stake! I did not see the Pilot when it was rerun earlier in the year so it's been 21 eps since I saw it last. I think it definitely held up well after seeing the season play out. I had recently read some essays at Tea at the Ford about narrative structure with comments that with BtVS complex seasonal and character arcs viewing in rerun made for better appreciation than viewing original episodes when the longterm perspective could inform the unfolding story and the viewer could see the richness of texture in both plot and characters. VM very much holds to this standard also. Love all the little details that tied into the season's finish. Lots there right from the start. I could almost count them off from memory fromour discussions here!! But I get some sort of vibe that I can't quite put my finger on, that maybe Aaron was not the originally intended killer. Something about the Logan moments and knowing that his importance to RT and the viewers grew as the chemistry with everyone just kept getting better and better makes me wonder if RT was, pre-season, going to make Logan the disposable villain but changed his plans to fit what he saw on the screen. (Ooh, another Spike parallel!). And therefore, Aaron, NOT in the Pilot directly, was shifted into the hot seat. I see the "video" connection clearly but the "Aaron" clue in the Pilot is a bit of a stretch. Had forgotten what Backup #1 looked like. Not even a close match to BU#2! That's all for now. Maybe more after I think about the Pilot again or after viewing Return of the Kane tonight! I had forgotten what Backup #1 looked like too. I don't know - I see your point but I really don't see clues to Logan in the pilot. Especially in the crying scene. Which is so Logan - thinking of him crying in the finale at the beach - but doesn't ring killer to me. But I do think its difficult to get Aaron as the killer from the pilot. I don't think we are given any clues as to his identity. Clues about the importance of video - yes but Aaron, not really. But after watching Return of the Kane - boy does Aaron's evilness just ring out. I must say I love how Rob got us to first hate Aaron, then reluctantly kind of like him or at least enjoy watching him and then hate him again. Very nicely done and Kudos again to Harry Hamlin for a career recharging performance.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 1, 2006 17:02:10 GMT -5
20 hours earlier
Parents are either millionaires or work for millionaires
Wallace is new to Neptune
"Life's a bitch, until you die" True dat. Embrace it; love it. Nothing wrong with it.
Fatalism vs hope.
Veronica's flashback wig looks terrible.
Does kind of seem like they're setting up Veronica/Wallace
streaming video
I'm no longer that girl.
unicorn music box
So, Veronica's "in" is photography. I'll buy that.
God, I love Keith
Situational ethics
I suddenly feel like I'm watching a scene from Outsiders. Hee!
Negotiating the middle ground
opening the safe/pandora's box
Too many questions to wait
Veronica Mars: she's a marshmellow
Good for a pilot. Pilots are often awkward, so I'll allow for the excessive voice overs and flashbacks.
So we begin In Media Res. I love flashbacks, and "20 hours earlier" structure, but I'm not sure it works here, particularly both together in one episode. Why show events of the past year as flashbacks instead of in chronological order? Sort of a "show don't tell" problem. On the other hand, it allows for 2 years to be revealed in one season, and since one of them is rather a downer, maybe that's why they chose this formate. Still giving it the benefit of the doubt.
timeline: Duncan broke up with Veronica (was that before or after?) Lilly's murder Keith voted out as Sheriff parents broke up, one months after Keith lost job, 8 months before "present," ? ?? Party/Date Rape: shortly after Lilly's murder, 8 months before "present"
Present day is...close to the beginning of the school year? Doesn't say which year, though AP English, so upperclassman.
Wallace is new to Neptune, but already he has a job, as a minor, that lets him take the night shift all by himself?
The Kanes and the Mars are really mixed up together. Mom's involvement probably started it. How long have Veronica known Duncan and Lilly? How long had Veronica and Duncan been dating? Were the Kanes just middle class until they hit it big with their company, then suddenly they were in a world apart from Veronica?
So Veronica didn't really get into investigating Lilly's murder herself until she found out that her mom was somehow mixed up. A lot of time went by.
So Lamb not even investigating Veronica's charge of rape is clearly disturbing. But, why didn't Veronica go to the hospital? Could have gone there and kept it from her dad, and at least gotten treatment and evidence of some sort for herself, even if the cops were ignoring it. Also, wouldn't she have driven to the party if it was that far away from where she lives? And if it weren't, why didn't she go get her car rather than doing the walk of shame?
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