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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 26, 2004 8:01:20 GMT -5
Spring-- Great analysis and quick too! I missed the Kane/Abel thing good catch. That's one of those clever little touches I liked. I also liked your point out that Veronica wants to deal with life via film to by remote control. Direct involvement has hurt her too much. And wanting to be the wizard vs having to go see the wizard. Good stuff. Now I'm going to copy over some comments I made early this morning on the main thread because they are more appropriate here: And with that folks, I will post a few specifics about VM which tickled me. Most the reaction has been fairly generalized so far and I can definitely see where the overload of backstory and angst might have dulled the pleasure for some (not me, but I can see how it could). <snip> Sue - thanks for your feedback and for adding your excellent comments to this thread. I said this over on the main board, but want to repeat it here in case you didn't see it: You have nothing to worry about when it comes to doing these reviews! You've practically done one with the post above, and a good job you did. Take something like that, add a little polish and formatting, and voila! I think this is going to be fun for us, pardner.
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Post by Becky H on Sept 26, 2004 17:24:08 GMT -5
Well, I guess you might be facing Ohio then . . . That's OK. All these midwest states can kinda blur together. At least you didn't confuse us with Michigan, as deb did one time. When it comes to comparisons to BtVS, it seemed like this to me: Veronica = Buffy Dad = Joyce and/or Giles Mom = Hank Duncan = Angel (first true love, leaves her) Logan = Spike (lots like the dark side of Veronica) Lily & Co = Buffy's friends at . . . Hemery (?) High, before everything changed and she moved to Sunnydale Wallace = Xander (true blue friend) Sheriff Lamb, other authorities = Principal Snyder, other authorities I can see where Logan is a "Cordy" type as well - and yes, I do think that like Cordy, there is going to be a lot more to Logan than his tough-guy exterior. We sure need a "Willow" though, don't we? I hope we get one. Oops! I'm not usually so geographically-challenged. And I even wrote that before the wine-tasting... Yes, I had the cast parallels sorted pretty much as you'd done them but I couldn't find a Willow, either. I find it very curious that Veronica has only male figures around her and appears to have no female friends. Did her mother's abandonment make Veronica write off the entire gender? She doesn't specify the gender when she says she's learned that those whom you love will let you down but the lack of women in her life makes me wonder.
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Post by Lola m on Sept 27, 2004 12:54:22 GMT -5
Well, put me in the same line with the folks going - wow! And, I didn't catch the important name bits (Mars, Neptune, Kane, Abel).
However, I am also glad to hear others mentioning my own suspicions/thoughts regarding Duncan and possible involvment in his sister's death.
Excellent summary of the arc of Veronica's life (interesting, as you said in a later post, to compare the parallel "looks" of Buffy pre and post-slayer and Veronica pre and post-life traumas).
Loved the paragraphs about Veronica distancing herself from life - through a cameral lens, on a tape, manipulated by remote control, etc. She's trying to live her life from a distance to keep from being more hurt. But we all know that's not really possible. Not really possible to distance yourself from your own life. And not really possible to never be hurt again. Much as I can empathize with the desire.
Lola
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Post by Nickim on Sept 28, 2004 15:54:49 GMT -5
I loved your review, as always, Spring.
I liked VM right from the first voice-over about what kind of town they all live in. "Go Pirates." I actually like the voice-overs. They let us get into Veronica's head. I liked they way she stood up to Weevil in the beginning. "If it's as big as you say, I'll be your girlfriend....We could go to Prom together." Very much like Buffy's quipping.
I thought the lawyer was hilarious. "I like this case, it's tawdry."
Why is Lily on Prozac before she dies? Does she have something specific to be depressed about? Lily does say she has "a secret." Sexual abuse? Duncan is rocking back and forth in shock the night Lily is killed. Police will tell you that most murders are easy to solve. They just look for the person at the crime scene with the dazed, I can't believe I did that look on their face. That would Duncan, but he could be in shock because he saw his father murder his sister or found out she was being molested by her father.
I like Veronica's dad. The actor was one of my favorites on that sitcom--the name escapes me--with David Spade. He played the photographer. I think he's doing the best he knows how. "Tonight we eat like the lower-middle class to which we aspire." He has been traumatized himself, too. He was held up as incompetent, lost his wife, his job and his house all in the space of a few months. Veronica tells him she's fine, her grades are fine, etc. He tries to protect her from her mother's betrayal. What is Mrs Mars--who apparently has moved to Arizona--doing back in Neptune, CA? More than just a quickie affair going on there. Spring mentioned the Mars' apartment being in a motel, but the interior looks pretty nice, and it does have a pool.
The new sheriff tells Veronica that there's no evidence of rape, but the first thing the sheriff should have done was send her to the closest hospital. A doctor always does a "rape kit" to gather evidence--semen, hairs, etc--and check for bruising. This scene was a bit much, but it does emphasize how isolated this girl really is. She can't even expect justice for something as horrific as being raped. Are there any giant snake demons in Neptune? 'Cause that sheriff really needs to be bitten in two.
I hope VM just keeps getting better and better.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 28, 2004 16:10:22 GMT -5
Well, put me in the same line with the folks going - wow! And, I didn't catch the important name bits (Mars, Neptune, Kane, Abel). However, I am also glad to hear others mentioning my own suspicions/thoughts regarding Duncan and possible involvment in his sister's death. Excellent summary of the arc of Veronica's life (interesting, as you said in a later post, to compare the parallel "looks" of Buffy pre and post-slayer and Veronica pre and post-life traumas). Loved the paragraphs about Veronica distancing herself from life - through a cameral lens, on a tape, manipulated by remote control, etc. She's trying to live her life from a distance to keep from being more hurt. But we all know that's not really possible. Not really possible to distance yourself from your own life. And not really possible to never be hurt again. Much as I can empathize with the desire. Lola Thanks for the feedback Lola, and for your thoughts on the ep. I agree - you can run but you can't hide from life. As Spike once told Buffy "Free of life? Gotta another name for that. Dead."
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 28, 2004 16:20:36 GMT -5
loved your review, as always, Spring. I liked VM right from the first voice-over about what kind of town they all live in. "Go Pirates." I actually like the voice-overs. They let us get into Veronica's head. I liked they way she stood up to Weevil in the beginning. "If it's as big as you say, I'll be your girlfriend....We could go to Prom together." Very much like Buffy's quipping. I thought the lawyer was hilarious. "I like this case, it's tawdry." Why is Lily on Prozac before she dies? Does she have something specific to be depressed about? Lily does say she has "a secret." Sexual abuse? Duncan is rocking back and forth in shock the night Lily is killed. Police will tell you that most murders are easy to solve. They just look for the person at the crime scene with the dazed, I can't believe I did that look on their face. That would Duncan, but he could be in shock because he saw his father murder his sister or found out she was being molested by her father. I like Veronica's dad. The actor was one of my favorites on that sitcom--the name escapes me--with David Spade. He played the photographer. I think he's doing the best he knows how. "Tonight we eat like the lower-middle class to which we aspire." He has been traumatized himself, too. He was held up as incompetent, lost his wife, his job and his house all in the space of a few months. Veronica tells him she's fine, her grades are fine, etc. He tries to protect her from her mother's betrayal. What is Mrs Mars--who apparently has moved to Arizona--doing back in Neptune, CA? More than just a quickie affair going on there. Spring mentioned the Mars' apartment being in a motel, but the interior looks pretty nice, and it does have a pool. Thanks Nicki, for the nice feedback, and especially for mentioning Veronica's dad. I really like that actor too, and he did a wonderful job. The quote you used above about the lower middle class was my favorite. I wasn't at all sure about the "motel." Did it seem like an apartment complex to you? I couldn't really decide. My feeling is that the sherrif was referring to the fact that there was no evidence of a crime. I mean, there would be evidence of sex, but I can easily believe there wouldn't be any evidence of rape - since she was passed out, there wouldn't necessarily be evidence of force being used. All any tests could prove is that Veronica had sex with so-and-so. Not that the sherrif isn't horrible in his reaction - totally dismissive, won't give her the time of day, completely unconcerned, deliberately cold and cruel, etc. Me too.
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Post by Queen E on Sept 28, 2004 17:11:38 GMT -5
Just wanted to tell you "Thanks!" for doing these reviews; you have a keen eye, picked up a lot that would have passed me by, and clarified some points I was a little fuzzy on. And of course, your writing kicks ass.
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Post by Nickim on Sept 28, 2004 17:31:57 GMT -5
Thanks Nicki, for the nice feedback, and especially for mentioning Veronica's dad. I really like that actor too, and he did a wonderful job. The quote you used above about the lower middle class was my favorite. I wasn't at all sure about the "motel." Did it seem like an apartment complex to you? I couldn't really decide. My feeling is that the sherrif was referring to the fact that there was no evidence of a crime. I mean, there would be evidence of sex, but I can easily believe there wouldn't be any evidence of rape - since she was passed out, there wouldn't necessarily be evidence of force being used. All any tests could prove is that Veronica had sex with so-and-so. Not that the sherrif isn't horrible in his reaction - totally dismissive, won't give her the time of day, completely unconcerned, deliberately cold and cruel, etc. Me too. I think it was an apartment complex. Rohypnol takes 72 hours to leave the body, so a simple blood test would have given evidence of a crime.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 29, 2004 9:48:59 GMT -5
I think it was an apartment complex. Rohypnol takes 72 hours to leave the body, so a simple blood test would have given evidence of a crime. EG - thanks for the feedback. NICKI - interesting info on the Rohyphnol. So our sheriff is doubly dumb or disgusting, or both!
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Post by Sue on Jan 18, 2005 22:29:04 GMT -5
Well, I don't know how many of you watched the repeat, but I found myself seeing tons of stuff I'd either missed the first time or forgotten. (And, since I didn't take notes I'm forgetting again).
For one--she did mention that the breakup came before the murder.
2) Duncan's condition the night of the murder. (Very glazed.)
3) "Who's your daddy?" -- in the very first episode (to be repeated in Meet John Smith; the one about the neighbor with the baby and the one with Mac. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
4) something about what dad's do is protect their daughters.
5) Mr. Kane's sexual appetite has disappeared. (well, his daughter was murdered.)
6) They mentioned the tennis shoes (and a backpack) being found on Abel's houseboat.
There was more.
They packed so much backstory into 40 minutes--quite amazing.
And interesting how the relationships have already changed in 12 episodes.
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Post by Lola m on Jan 18, 2005 22:33:46 GMT -5
I was expecting to re-watch this and try really hard to watch for any clues I might previously have missed regarding Lily's murder. And I look for those, but didn't notice anything I hadn't already noticed first time 'round or that we've seen more of in later eps.
But, I also noticed how many things I wasn't "questioning" that first time around. Like how significant it is that Duncan is so spacey the night of the murder. We're seeing him at a time that we now know he doesn't even remember.
We already had the two distinct sides to Logan in this ep. The sad and confused and (now we know blaming himself and everyone else) guy right after the murder - like in the scene after the tape is leaked. And the asshole guy who taunts Veronica and smashes her car. But now I know a bit more of why it was probably a really bad thing that the cops hauled him in and his dad punished him . . . by taking the car away. 'Cuz I'm sure that's not all that daddy Echolls did.
Wallace and Veronica are so cute on the beach - both so insecure looking and uncertain as they wave to each other. Looking back on this ep really makes me realize that knowing each other has done a lot for each of them, more than I had realized.
Lola
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Post by Lola m on Jan 18, 2005 22:40:01 GMT -5
Well, I don't know how many of you watched the repeat, but I found myself seeing tons of stuff I'd either missed the first time or forgotten. (And, since I didn't take notes I'm forgetting again). For one--she did mention that the breakup came before the murder. Yes! I watched for that in particular, and realized that she doesn't really specify when or why. It's just "one day". And because she's also talking about all the kids turning against her because of the investigation, I must have leapt to the conclusion that the breakup was part of it the first time around. Another eetah here. It definitely really struck me this time. Especially with the repetition at the end and the way she says "you're my daddy". Very hmmmmmmmmmm. I really hadn't expected that I'd see there has been as much character development and growth in relationships as I noticed from this very first one. Lola
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Post by Lola m on Jun 14, 2005 21:44:21 GMT -5
Well this was very interesting. To compare reactions on first seeing, on re-watching part way through the season and now at the end. I'ts scary to read some of the things we were talking about right from the start. The comparison of Logan to Spike and the feeling that there was going to be more to his character. Noting the glazed reaction of Duncan. The emphasis on fathers. And of course the clues that I see now. Others have mentioned earlier that cameras and video tape being heavily featured is a definite clue - the camera doesn't lie - as well as the two boys talking about "the Lilly Kane tape". I also wonder about Veronica's description of Logan as "psychotic" (hmmmmm, an Echolls who is psychotic . . . where will we see that?) along with Logan's later comments about his father punishing him by taking away his car (yeah, like we believe it was just that). So dad is "present" in the first ep, not seen, but present. Ah, how I wish they were showing all the eps in order - that they had time to re-run the whole season. Not only because I would love to have the first 7 or 8 eps on tape, but also to have the fun of watching the whole thing over again. Only this time, knowing a lot of the answers.
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Post by Sue on Jun 14, 2005 22:36:43 GMT -5
I did notice "Corny" was in the Pilot (shows up later and asks V is she wants to go to White Castle). He set up the bong (?) that was planted in Logan's locker and gives V a high five when the locker is inspected.
Weevil and gang were pretty dangerous seeming and aggressive.
Not sure if they were softened up or just not used enough toward the end. Hoping to see more of Weevil next season.
---------
Ah, Logan. Even from the very beginning when he was just plain not nice. He still manages to draw the eye and attention in whatever scene he is in.
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Post by Karen on Jun 14, 2005 22:49:30 GMT -5
Well this was very interesting. To compare reactions on first seeing, on re-watching part way through the season and now at the end. I'ts scary to read some of the things we were talking about right from the start. The comparison of Logan to Spike and the feeling that there was going to be more to his character. Noting the glazed reaction of Duncan. The emphasis on fathers. And of course the clues that I see now. Others have mentioned earlier that cameras and video tape being heavily featured is a definite clue - the camera doesn't lie - as well as the two boys talking about "the Lilly Kane tape". I also wonder about Veronica's description of Logan as "psychotic" (hmmmmm, an Echolls who is psychotic . . . where will we see that?) along with Logan's later comments about his father punishing him by taking away his car (yeah, like we believe it was just that). So dad is "present" in the first ep, not seen, but present.Ah, how I wish they were showing all the eps in order - that they had time to re-run the whole season. Not only because I would love to have the first 7 or 8 eps on tape, but also to have the fun of watching the whole thing over again. Only this time, knowing a lot of the answers. I caught that, too. That's one major clue, I think. I like CB's hair shorter, too. I wonder if she'll cut it for next year. Always worrying about the hair....
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