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Post by William the Bloody on Oct 1, 2004 9:20:43 GMT -5
The games afoot!
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 1, 2004 10:06:26 GMT -5
Sue - nice, thorough job. I like the way you identified the major themes - reputation vs open-mindedness, when it is appropriate to give "credit," and tied it into the title. Yes, that Wallace thing was a very B/X moment, huh? I thought the same thing. I think we're getting some strong Veronica/Logan parallels in that they both act really tough and have developed hard shells due to being so hurt, but they actually have marshmellow centers. I didn't think Logan had set Weevil up, and I did suspect Caitlin very quickly - but they did surprise me with the Caitlin/Cousin connection. Troy: I am semi-suspicious of Troy. Not sure what to make of the "lack of women," especially any female friends for Veronica. But she's so recently lost all her friends, so maybe this will change. Anyhow - great job on the review, Sue - even though you forgot to put in a section about Paris Hilton's wardrobe and hair and accessories. I liked the way the review was split up and the "Buffy moments section" was inspired!
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Post by Queen E on Oct 1, 2004 10:27:55 GMT -5
Sue - nice, thorough job. I like the way you identified the major themes - reputation vs open-mindedness, when it is appropriate to give "credit," and tied it into the title. Yes, that Wallace thing was a very B/X moment, huh? I thought the same thing. I think we're getting some strong Veronica/Logan parallels in that they both act really tough and have developed hard shells due to being so hurt, but they actually have marshmellow centers. I didn't think Logan had set Weevil up, and I did suspect Caitlin very quickly - but they did surprise me with the Caitlin/Cousin connection. Troy: I am semi-suspicious of Troy. Not sure what to make of the "lack of women," especially any female friends for Veronica. But she's so recently lost all her friends, so maybe this will change. Anyhow - great job on the review, Sue - even though you forgot to put in a section about Paris Hilton's wardrobe and hair and accessories. I liked the way the review was split up and the "Buffy moments section" was inspired! Yeah, how could you forget Paris' sartorial offerings? Eetah on everything Spring said. There was so much happening in this episode (but much more subtly than in the pilot). Your structure really clarified many things that I had missed, and mirrored the two separate yet related plotlines happening in the episode. Really nice work!
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Post by Sue on Oct 1, 2004 13:09:16 GMT -5
Thanks guys. I appreciate the props.
Thanks t both Patti and Erin for proof-reading and editing help.
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Post by Queen E on Oct 1, 2004 15:19:19 GMT -5
Thanks guys. I appreciate the props. Thanks t both Patti and Erin for proof-reading and editing help. No problem; it was fun! (I may be in need of a life.)
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 1, 2004 16:46:15 GMT -5
No problem; it was fun! (I may be in need of a life.) I KNOW I am... And Sue, by the time I saw it, no proofing was needed. Excellent job, interesting thoughts! More later....
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Post by Lola m on Oct 2, 2004 11:27:33 GMT -5
Wow, Sue! Excellent review! I hadn't consciously noticed how Veronica was the only important female character. It's a very effective way to a) focus our attention on her viewpoint b) emphasize her isolation. Reputation versus an open mind. How very clever of you to use these two polar opposites to anchor your review - especially considering how they relate to the "credit where credit is due" bit. Because an open mind is really the antithesis to acting based on reputation. What you know based on reputation only is, by definition, not your own personally experienced truth. You need to do your own "detective work" to make sure you are giving proper "credit". As you said: (I too just loved the look V shoots her dad when he says the "I thought they had the confessed criminal in jail" line. ) Like others, I am becoming very intrigued by Logan. He's such a layered, complex character. Like Spring, I wasn't surprised by him not being the one who set up Weevil's Grandmother, but I was surprised by the cousin. I think it's pretty amazing the amount of richness the writers are putting into all the characters (Logan, Weevil, Wallace - even, as you said, the tertiary characters like Grandma Navarro or the sleazy lawyer guy). So many shows want to begin with stock or generic characters so as not to "confuse" the viewer. Me? I prefer a little more real human complexity to my drama. I think my favorite part of your review, (because it made me stop and go "huh, I hadn't looked at it that way before), was: Lola
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Post by Sue on Oct 2, 2004 12:14:40 GMT -5
Wow, Sue! Excellent review! I hadn't consciously noticed how Veronica was the only important female character. It's a very effective way to a) focus our attention on her viewpoint b) emphasize her isolation. Reputation versus an open mind. How very clever of you to use these two polar opposites to anchor your review - especially considering how they relate to the "credit where credit is due" bit. Because an open mind is really the antithesis to acting based on reputation. What you know based on reputation only is, by definition, not your own personally experienced truth. You need to do your own "detective work" to make sure you are giving proper "credit". As you said: (I too just loved the look V shoots her dad when he says the "I thought they had the confessed criminal in jail" line. ) Like others, I am becoming very intrigued by Logan. He's such a layered, complex character. Like Spring, I wasn't surprised by him not being the one who set up Weevil's Grandmother, but I was surprised by the cousin. I think it's pretty amazing the amount of richness the writers are putting into all the characters (Logan, Weevil, Wallace - even, as you said, the tertiary characters like Grandma Navarro or the sleazy lawyer guy). So many shows want to begin with stock or generic characters so as not to "confuse" the viewer. Me? I prefer a little more real human complexity to my drama. I think my favorite part of your review, (because it made me stop and go "huh, I hadn't looked at it that way before), was: Lola Thanks, Lola. It's impossible to tell at this point but IF VM hangs around for several years and IF it keeps up its currently high standard of writing and character development (enormously huge "ifs" in TVLand); THEN the day may came when we come back to these early episodes and dissect them for clues to future behaviors and relationships. That will be one more Buffy parallel, should it ever happen. And, regarding this comment: I was reminded of the old proverb: "Be careful what you wish for...it might come true." Seems to me that the answers to these questions might potentially be even more painful and harmful than allowing them to remain unanswered. But, of course, that's not Veronica's style. I expect them to be unexpected, but I hope that we aren't red herringed and then given some outlandish solution that doesn't fit with the facts given and the characters or come out of left field at the last moment. I like VM but I don't trust TV.
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Post by Sue on Oct 2, 2004 16:38:10 GMT -5
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Post by Karen on Oct 3, 2004 9:32:10 GMT -5
Thanks for the link, Sue. (Kelly Osborne is going to be a "Buffy-type" girl, too? I liked the premise of that show, because she is very atypical of the heroine type usually shown on TV.) I really enjoyed your review! I don't know what you were worried about. You obviously are enthused about VM, and it shows. I love how I can enjoy the show for its entertainment value and come back here and read yours and everyone's insights into its deeper meanings. I sometimes get distracted by the shiny things, and the cute guys while watching the show. The comparisons to Buffy are hard to ignore. But where Buffy's persona was shown to be witty but a little ditsy at times (but in a loveable and endearing way), Veronica is being shown as witty, sarcastic, and smart. But both Buffy and Veronica are both shown as strong young women, willing to stand up for themselves and others. I'm glad to see that they kept her blonde, tho. I really hate the ditsy blonde stereotype. Paris's character was blonde, but not ditsy - just spoiled and pampered. I felt a little sorry for her when her 'friends' turned on her, just like they turned on Veronica. I'm loving the "right and wrong side of the tracks" elements to VM. Along with the mystery, of course. I suppose it remains to be seen if Troy is the genuine article and will remain as part of Veronica and Wallace's group. I did like seeing the 3 of them walk off together at the end of the episode. I didn't think of how his character compared to Willow tho. Nice catch! Thank you!!
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Post by Sue on Oct 3, 2004 14:32:15 GMT -5
I suppose it remains to be seen if Troy is the genuine article and will remain as part of Veronica and Wallace's group. I did like seeing the 3 of them walk off together at the end of the episode. I didn't think of how his character compared to Willow tho. Nice catch! Thank you!! And thank you! We'll just have to watch and see if Troy turns out to be gay!
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Post by leftylady on Oct 11, 2004 17:00:19 GMT -5
Yes, that Wallace thing was a very B/X moment, huh? I thought the same thing. I don't know about the Wallace - Xander identification. Remember, early Willow was a computer geek and techno expert. I see Wallace as more Veronica's Willow than her Xander. Perhaps, Troy may turn out to be Xander if he's kept around.
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Post by Sue on Oct 11, 2004 17:36:23 GMT -5
I don't know about the Wallace - Xander identification. Remember, early Willow was a computer geek and techno expert. I see Wallace as more Veronica's Willow than her Xander. Perhaps, Troy may turn out to be Xander if he's kept around. Hello, leftylady, and welcome. I'm glad you've joined the discussion--the more the merrier. I agree that it's way too early to say for sure what "patterns" the characters will fall into. And, if VM is truly high quality the characters will never simply be "types" but continue to intrigue and surprise us depending on the direction of their personality development. With regard to the Wallace-Veronica moment: I thought of the interaction between them as mirroring ocassional Buffy-Xander interactions in that she (V or B) had a need and simply expected him (W or X) to comply with her directive ("order" is too strong a word, but "request" is too weak) to help fulfill the need. Doesn't mean that Wallace will necessarily become a Xander-type character. In my mind it was more about how V/B are, well, users but I don't really mean that in a bad way. They are both very goal oriented and simply assume that those around them are seeking the same goals and are willing to help her achieve said goal(s).
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Post by Karen on Oct 12, 2004 11:11:18 GMT -5
Hello, leftylady, and welcome. I'm glad you've joined the discussion--the more the merrier. I agree that it's way too early to say for sure what "patterns" the characters will fall into. And, if VM is truly high quality the characters will never simply be "types" but continue to intrigue and surprise us depending on the direction of their personality development. With regard to the Wallace-Veronica moment: I thought of the interaction between them as mirroring ocassional Buffy-Xander interactions in that she (V or B) had a need and simply expected him (W or X) to comply with her directive ("order" is too strong a word, but "request" is too weak) to help fulfill the need. Doesn't mean that Wallace will necessarily become a Xander-type character. In my mind it was more about how V/B are, well, users but I don't really mean that in a bad way. They are both very goal oriented and simply assume that those around them are seeking the same goals and are willing to help her achieve said goal(s). Maybe instead of "users" - "leaders" would be a better word to use. And Wallace has a need to follow, just like Xander did.
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Post by William the Bloody on Oct 12, 2004 13:55:42 GMT -5
I don't know about the Wallace - Xander identification. Remember, early Willow was a computer geek and techno expert. I see Wallace as more Veronica's Willow than her Xander. Perhaps, Troy may turn out to be Xander if he's kept around. I basically agree with you, that if Wallace is a "type" he would be more VM's Willow, than her Xander...or perhaps a combination of hte two: A Willow that has Xander's "male" traits. He has already sort of flirted with her, as is natural among almost any young male/female relationships, especially in the early stages, where they are seeking a foothold. VM definitely has huge leadership qualities that she hasn't really begun to tap yet. In my opinion almost all leaders are "users" after a fashion. The ability to lead is the ability to select a goal (either alone or by common interest) and then motivate and direct yourself and others into achieving it. Delegating duties to those most fit to perform and so on. Veronica demonstrates this in her plan to retrieve Wallaces tape and then in her plan to unmask the real guilty person in the credit card fraud case. I also sort of agree with the others. I think that this show is unique enough and so well written, that we are going to be surprised with how some of hte relationships evolve here and with who the characters become. I really believe that, like with the Whedon shows, we are going to see these characters evolve and change "naturally" as the series progressses. They won't become stagnant caricatures that we can always rely on to perform exactly the same, week in, week out. Instead, as the situations become more nuanced and the layers are added to their personalities, we will be continually surprised at the directions htey decide to go, but at the same time will reflect upon their past history and realize that, indeed, it was all right there in front of us. Vlad
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