|
|
Post by Sue on Mar 21, 2005 16:55:53 GMT -5
For all those who watch and love Veronica Mars this thread is for essays, discussions, posts, information and links which are not episode specific.
Most specifically this thread is for posts which look at broader themes or characters over the spread of the entire series, not just a specific episode.
Discussion of these types of essays and posts is also encouraged here.
Finally, this thread may also be used as a bit of a bulletin board for VM related information, but remember that there is a thread on the main board where articles, interviews, links and appearance announcements should also be posted.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sue on Mar 24, 2005 14:43:06 GMT -5
Courtesy of Sara: There's a new website out there describing itself as a beginner's guide to VM--it covers all the episodes to date and provides rundowns on both the characters, the ongoing mysteries, and the timeline of events: www.marsinvestigations.net/ |
|
|
|
Post by Bluesman on Mar 26, 2005 16:07:25 GMT -5
Shouldn't strong women be able to have happy endings?In the article styled Good girl, bad girl, Mary Spicuzza, the author, asks where have all the action heroines gone? She contends that Hollywood has replaced complex, witty women (who kick butt) with dysfunctional caricatures (who kick butt). www.sptimes.com/2005/03/26/Floridian/Good_girl__bad_girl.shtmlI found evocative Ms. Spicuzza's question: " Shouldn't strong women be able to have happy endings?". Must female heroines remain or descend into misery for storylines to remain appealing and fresh? Was Buffy's descent into a soul-destroying depression and dysfunctional relationship with Spike critical for BtVS to remain relevant? BtVS has ended. But we now have Veronica Mars. This young, outsider resides in a noir world of corrupt authorities, ambiguous loyalties, and constant betrayal. (<-- ambiguous loyalties and constant betrayal may appear redundant, but isn't it more satisfying to work in sets of three?). Veronica Mars starts in many ways emotionally level and akin to Buffy Summers of Season 6. Cast out by her former friends, deserted by her mother, she has literally been ripped from a heavenly world of teen innocence. Like Buffy, she has suffered the trauma of rape. Like Buffy, she faces a world of hazy might-have-been--romantic-love. With Buffy it was Angel/Riley, while Veronica yearns for what might have been with Duncan. Both Buffy and Veronica have and will face betrayal and lies from those they trust. As this series develops, I cannot see a writer of Robert Thomas’ caliber opting for stasis. So the question emerges, where do we go from here? Must we follow Veronica into darker realms? Can a strong woman have a happy ending? Whatever your opinion, can you suggest any shows that get it right today? What shows get it wrong. And where would you guide Veronica Mars if you had the helm of this show? Bluesman
|
|
wykbbb
Junior S'cubie
Posts: 18
|
Post by wykbbb on Mar 27, 2005 20:01:33 GMT -5
You know that part when we said we weren't going to update marsinvestigations.net until the next new episode? Well...we lied. But spending eternity in hell for lying is so worth it because we would like to announce...TA-DA... our interview with Michael Muhney (Sheriff Don Lamb, aka Officer Sweetiepie.) Woo-hoo! You might love to hate Sheriff Lamb now, but after reading this spoiler-free interview, you will so luuuv Michael. Trust us. Or don't. Because we do have a long history of lying. |
|
|
|
Post by Pixi on Mar 28, 2005 16:34:24 GMT -5
Shouldn't strong women be able to have happy endings?In the article styled Good girl, bad girl, Mary Spicuzza, the author, asks where have all the action heroines gone? She contends that Hollywood has replaced complex, witty women (who kick butt) with dysfunctional caricatures (who kick butt). www.sptimes.com/2005/03/26/Floridian/Good_girl__bad_girl.shtmlI found evocative Ms. Spicuzza's question: " Shouldn't strong women be able to have happy endings?". Must female heroines remain or descend into misery for storylines to remain appealing and fresh? Was Buffy's descent into a soul-destroying depression and dysfunctional relationship with Spike critical for BtVS to remain relevant? BtVS has ended. But we now have Veronica Mars. This young, outsider resides in a noir world of corrupt authorities, ambiguous loyalties, and constant betrayal. (<-- ambiguous loyalties and constant betrayal may appear redundant, but isn't it more satisfying to work in sets of three?). Veronica Mars starts in many ways emotionally level and akin to Buffy Summers of Season 6. Cast out by her former friends, deserted by her mother, she has literally been ripped from a heavenly world of teen innocence. Like Buffy, she has suffered the trauma of rape. Like Buffy, she faces a world of hazy might-have-been--romantic-love. With Buffy it was Angel/Riley, while Veronica yearns for what might have been with Duncan. Both Buffy and Veronica have and will face betrayal and lies from those they trust. As this series develops, I cannot see a writer of Robert Thomas’ caliber opting for stasis. So the question emerges, where do we go from here? Must we follow Veronica into darker realms? Can a strong woman have a happy ending? Whatever your opinion, can you suggest any shows that get it right today? What shows get it wrong. And where would you guide Veronica Mars if you had the helm of this show? Bluesman Very intesting read - thanks for posting this. I think Rob Thomas will have to continue his balancing act of dark/light and I must say so far he is doing a magnificent job. |
|
|
|
Post by Bluesman on Mar 31, 2005 17:03:39 GMT -5
Working Theory -- The Lilly Kane Murder: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . This Theory is Based on Speculation and Information Set Out in Episodes 1 through 16 -- so if you have not seen all the episodes you might want to avoid my theory ***** I considered the following motives: Lilly -- Celeste finds Lilly inappropriate; Weevil is angered at Lilly's dumping him. Veronica -- Celeste hates Veronica, arguably product of adulterous affair with Lianne; Jake Kane faces lost millions in paternity suit, plus embarassment. Celeste Kane has Anger Issues Jake cheated on Celeste with his old flame, Lianne Mars. The affair may have ended; it may have continued. In any event, Lianne has an ongoing, long-term obsession of Jake Kane. The two remain close and Celeste knows it. Then Duncan began to date Veronica, the daughter of Jake's old mistress. Celeste hated Veronica; she hated Duncan seeing Veronica. It drove her crazy. And it showed. Celeste had to end the relationship. So she told Duncan, "Look, your dad had an affair with Lianne Mars about nine months before Veronica's birth, you do the math. Your father and I have worked our problems out, but you cannot date Veronica any longer." Shocked, Duncan ends the relationship. But he remains hung up on Veronica. Celeste monitors her husband, Jake Kane. She suspects he still sees Lianne. She's losing her husband. She has to do something. So she calls Veronica and leaves a message: Jake Kane and your mother are screwing around. Lianne hears the message and telephones Jake. "Get your wife to back off or I'll name you in a paternity lawsuit. Lianne is bluffing to the extent she doesn't know if Jake is Veronica's father or not. Not long after that her husband, Jake Kane, gets a telephone call from Lianne. He makes an excuse and he leaves the house. Lianne follows him or knows where he is headed. In the interview tapes, Jake Kane mentioned he stays at the Neptune Grand occasionally; it's a get away spot for he and Celeste when they can't take the kids and need some husband/wife time. Keith asks if he has receipts. There is no response. But Jake Kane does have receipts, only those receipts don't involve Celeste. Celeste heads to the Neptune Grand where Jake and Lianne meet. It’s not just convenient, it's the pair's usual spot. Celeste storms in and makes a scene. Lianne flees-standard operating procedure for Lianne when faced with unpleasantness. Jake and Lianne meet in a hotel room. Celeste has obviously been keeping tabs on her husband. So she decides to ambush the couple. She bursts into the room. A screaming fight ensues and Celeste storms out. Jake and Lianne may talk further or they may go their separate ways. In the meantime, Lilly has a secret and it's a good one. This is a potential hole in my theory, because Lilly’s secret arguably might provide motive to kill her. For now, I’ll go with she learned that Veronica may be her sister--a good secret from her point of view. You can also consider the secret involving Weevil, though, that seems old news to me. She also wrote herself a post-it note, "Meet Veronica. Call about Pilates session. Meet Duncan for coffee." This is seen in one of the episodes as a prop. I don't think she hooked up with Veronica. But she did meet Duncan. They were together. I think Duncan went into an epileptic seizure. Lilly was bent over Duncan, crying and trying to help. It was after 6:02 p.m., probably dark at the time. No Kane has an alibi at this point, not even Jake Kane, because the actual time of death is after the coroner’s stated time of death. Only Veronica knows this fact. Celeste comes home and sees Veronica (Lilly) kneeling over her son--mouth to mouth would be ideal, but I doubt that goes with epilepsy; two tiny blondes, same hair length, same clothes. Duncan is collapsed. She picks up a heavy object and hits the blond as hard as she can. Maybe she thinks she’s protecting Duncan. Maybe just the sight of the girl she thinks as Veronica, the girl who is the product of Jake's adulterous affair is too much for her and she snaps. Within moments, she knows she has killed her daughter Lilly. She calls Jake. My God, Duncan killed Lilly in an epileptic seizure. She's panicked. Jake isn't about to let his son go to prison. He swings into action. "Look Celeste," he says. "We need an alibi." He gets Clarence Weidman on the line. Abel Koontz is already dying. Duncan didn't kill his sister intentionally. Sure, they're covering up a murder, but it's not a murder with evil motive from Weidman and Jake's point of view. And Koontz is dead anyway. This way, his daughter gets something. Jake also has Weidman take some surveillance photos of Veronica. He probably has a paternity test run, which we'll learn the results of later. Celeste gets hold of the surveillance photos and again reaches out to the Mars family, this time threatening Lianne. In effect, "Get out of town or else." This protects the Kane family, because Lianne can destroy the alibi offered by Jake and Celeste. ***** I do not actually believe this theory hits it yet. But it's a theory that tries to work in most of the clues offered by Rob Thomas without treating them as red herrings. It's key flaw is that it relies on mistaken identity. Now, I have not yet seen the East coast promo which shows someone hitting Lilly. So the information in that promo might invalidate the theory. Also, both Jake Kane and Celeste Kane appear to be right handed. Lilly was hit on the left side of the head. This means the killer had to be left handed if he struck Lilly from behind, right handed if he struck Lilly from in front. Celeste is right handed, so she would have been facing Lilly when she struck her. I am going with the idea that she screamed at the blonde girl while swinging, Lilly turned and Celeste recognized her as she struck the girl--no time to pull her blow. Also, both Jake Kane and Celeste Kane appear to be right handed. Lilly was hit on the left side of the head. This means the killer had to be left handed if he struck Another problem, Lilly appears to have died at her house. Ideally for my mistaken identity theory, Lilly would have been somewhere Veronica might be found--i.e., meeting Veronica at her house. The body could have been moved of course. Bluesman |
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Mar 31, 2005 19:14:09 GMT -5
Bluesman - quite the theory. Hangs together nicely except . . . why the complication of Celeste doing it at all, why not just go with Duncan did it during a seizure? Wouldn't the whole thing work just as well?
Well - plenty of food for thought. Thanks for organizing these thoughts as you have.
I know this is as flimsy as can be, but almost since the first (or was it second?) ep, when we heard the name of Abel Koontz, I thought "the brother did it." Kane & Abel . . . it seemed like a big flashing light telling us "the brother did it."
Yes, I know - flimsy and perhaps too obvious.
|
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Mar 31, 2005 19:18:40 GMT -5
Shouldn't strong women be able to have happy endings?In the article styled Good girl, bad girl, Mary Spicuzza, the author, asks where have all the action heroines gone? She contends that Hollywood has replaced complex, witty women (who kick butt) with dysfunctional caricatures (who kick butt). www.sptimes.com/2005/03/26/Floridian/Good_girl__bad_girl.shtmlI found evocative Ms. Spicuzza's question: " Shouldn't strong women be able to have happy endings?". Must female heroines remain or descend into misery for storylines to remain appealing and fresh? Was Buffy's descent into a soul-destroying depression and dysfunctional relationship with Spike critical for BtVS to remain relevant? That whole "harrow hell" thing . . . isn't it part of the classic "hero's journey" thing? I don't think it has anything to do with her being a "strong woman" - I don't really accept the premise that the fact that Buffy is a strong woman is related to the decision to have her "descend into misery." This formula is nothing new for a hero's journey, and not confined to women. Buffy DID have a happy ending! Buffy got it right! I'd like to see her make a realistic journey to adulthood - whatever that might mean. That's what I liked about Buffy and though I don't want to see Buffy redone, for the simple reason that I've already seen Buffy . . . I just want to see emotional honesty and realistic character development, etc. From what I've seen so far, I think there is a good shot I will get my wish. |
|
|
|
Post by Bluesman on Mar 31, 2005 21:21:32 GMT -5
Bluesman - quite the theory. Hangs together nicely except . . . why the complication of Celeste doing it at all, why not just go with Duncan did it during a seizure? Wouldn't the whole thing work just as well? Spring, I considered Duncan. Partly, for the reasons you note. But I ruled him out. First, Duncan's killing Lilly during an epileptic seizure renders her death a motiveless, intentless, tragedy. Its akin to learning that Lilly died from falling out of a tree. Dramatically, it's unsatisfying. Plus, it really does not serve the analogy. Cain murdered his brother. To keep the analogy, Duncan must have struck Lilly intentionally, not in a epileptic seizure. And we have no motive for Duncan to kill his loved sister. Plus, I doubt UPN or RT will have Duncan kill his sister in an epileptic seizure, because they would face the inevitable accusation that they fostered fear of epileptics. Moreover, the epileptic seizure theory on its own renders many of RT's carefully planted clues meaningless in terms of the big arcs, e.g., the paternity issue, Lianne's affair, Celeste's hatred of Veronica, the decision for Celeste and Jake to concoct an alibi together (I see covering up Duncan's involvement, but why are Jake and Celeste cooperating to provide each other with an alibi?). Buffy DID have a happy ending! Buffy got it right! I'd like to see her make a realistic journey to adulthood - whatever that might mean. That's what I liked about Buffy and though I don't want to see Buffy redone, for the simple reason that I've already seen Buffy . . . I just want to see emotional honesty and realistic character development, etc. Well, in my opinion, Buffy got it right through Season 5--albeit death lacks the traditional ring of a happy ending, even a heavenly death. I found the Season 6 arc with Buffy's descent into a mutually abusive relationship and her deep (in my view clinical) depression particularly troubling. I never found Season 7 a particularly heartwarming or happy ending, though, she survived. Curious, how I find the ending of Season 5 which leaves Buffy dead in a grave more positive than that of Season 7. But I liked the choices Buffy made in leading to that particular ending. She still had that absolute sense of right and wrong, morality and its opposite. She refused to kill Ben. And she made a conscious decision to sacrifice herself to save her sister and the world. It was very akin to her decision to sacrifice Angel even though he was restored to her at the last moment. Basically, while I would not sacrifice any moment of Buffy, I gloried in BtVS Seasons 1 through 6 (up through Once More With Feeling); I shuddered at the second half of Season 6. For me Spike's attempted rape of Buffy was nothing compared to that balcony scene where he degrades her as Buffy looks down on her friends. Then we pick up again at Season 7 and I'm a happy camper. I really enjoyed BtVS Season 7 until the slayer-ettes came on the scene (for me, their purpose only served to steal screen time and dialogue from the charactes I wanted to see). And, honestly, I did not appreciate the character developments that Buffy went through from that point on as I saw Buffy as possessing the capabilty to be a strong, compassionate, caring leader, but I saw something else in Season 7 in her dealings with the slayer-ettes and her friends. Of course, I know many people who love the arcs the show took in Season 6 and Season 7. The point I see in the article is we don't allow strong women to have solid, strong, loving relationships with men. I can point to a number of good hero television where male characters have solid, loving supportive relationships. But generally, when you have a female heroine, you take the angsty relationship. Let's look at Buffy. With Angel, I loved that relationship. And I saw exactly how and why Buffy loved Angel. The fact that Angel later turned into a monster who killed Jenny Calendar, well, that cannot be held against Buffy. Spike was a different matter until he regained his sould. I loved his character. I loved the vivid acting James Marsters brought to he role, the way he imbued the souless spike with complexity. But pre-soul, he remained a monster. Now, mind you, I very much enjoyed the relationship Spike and Buffy had up to Once More with Feeling and I savored their relationship in Season 7 (a very genuine, heartfelt relationship, a positive relationship). |
|
|
|
Post by Spring on the run on Mar 31, 2005 22:04:09 GMT -5
Spring, I considered Duncan. Partly, for the reasons you note. But I ruled him out. First, Duncan's killing Lilly during an epileptic seizure renders her death a motiveless, intentless, tragedy. Its akin to learning that Lilly died from falling out of a tree. Dramatically, it's unsatisfying. Plus, it really does not serve the analogy. Cain murdered his brother. To keep the analogy, Duncan must have struck Lilly intentionally, not in a epileptic seizure. And we have no motive for Duncan to kill his loved sister. Plus, I doubt UPN or RT will have Duncan kill his sister in an epileptic seizure, because they would face the inevitable accusation that they fostered fear of epileptics. Moreover, the epileptic seizure theory on its own renders many of RT's carefully planted clues meaningless in terms of the big arcs, e.g., the paternity issue, Lianne's affair, Celeste's hatred of Veronica, the decision for Celeste and Jake to concoct an alibi together (I see covering up Duncan's involvement, but why are Jake and Celeste cooperating to provide each other with an alibi?). Yes - agree completely. No, disagree completely. But no time to talk turkey!Thanks for the interesting and thorough response. |
|
|
|
Post by Bluesman on Mar 31, 2005 22:22:09 GMT -5
No, disagree completely. But no time to talk turkey!Thanks for the interesting and thorough response. *grin* No surprise there. Its a wonderful broad Jossverse filled with differing opinions. |
|
|
|
Post by Sue on Apr 5, 2005 13:52:44 GMT -5
Hi guys, This is not an original writing, but since it contained comments on both VM and Buffy I thought it might be of some interest to you who frequent this thread. Here's a link to an possibly interesting discussion on st_salieri's livejournal re a Salon article on Veronica Mars. (can comparing VM to Buffy). www.livejournal.com/users/st_salieri/109323.html She's an excellent fanfic writer and uses language very precisely. Notice that as the comments progress they get further and further from her original point (which is quite specific). Instead of commenting on her observations posters start to answer one another and veer the discussion away from the main point. Sadly, as you can imagine there are people out there who can't just say: Show A is good; Show B is good; different strokes for different folks. Instead they feel compelled to say "Show A is better than Show B yada, yada and make it into a huge competition thing. What I like about salieri is she is highly specific in her comments and limits them primarily to the language used by the writer of the article. She disagrees with the writer's premise--primarily because of the form of it's presentation. Not agreeing or disagreeing here---just admiring someone with the ability to write an intelligent rebuttal without generalizing or deteriorating into the mindlessness of some fans. |
|
|
|
Post by Pixi on Apr 6, 2005 12:02:36 GMT -5
|
|
wykbbb
Junior S'cubie
Posts: 18
|
Post by wykbbb on Apr 9, 2005 0:13:06 GMT -5
Rob Thomas called Couch Baron from TWoP to announce the show was picked up for a second season.!!! |
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Apr 9, 2005 13:12:27 GMT -5
Rob Thomas called Couch Baron from TWoP to announce the show was picked up for a second season.!!! Thanks, wykbb! Hooray!! YAH --- HOO!! |
|
