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Post by Pixi on Apr 20, 2005 7:20:41 GMT -5
That would SO explain her lips!
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Post by Pixi on Apr 20, 2005 7:21:55 GMT -5
She was really really very good tonight, indeed! For me too, she was just Trina! I agree - good job tonight. Though the limp was a little funky - overdone or something. It didn't ring true to me but I did not think of Willow at all tonight.
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Post by Pixi on Apr 20, 2005 7:23:16 GMT -5
Yikes! Double Yikes! Hopefully this is not - like Artemis posted - an Agatha Christie moment.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 20, 2005 7:30:15 GMT -5
Great post! Ack - you all have got a head start on Wednesday I see. I'm kind of in the head spinning area too. I'm going to have to think and rewatch some more. So 2 minutes of heaven combined with someone I hate don't really seem to go together. And the previews show we get more kissage next week I see. I'm guessing the week after must be when everything hits the fan. I really enjoyed the sweet joyfulness of their kissing tonight. And they were saying everything we all were thinking last week - "what are we doing? We have to talk? etc. Really sweet scene after the really creepy scene. I agree with everyone who posted how terrific a job AH did tonight. There was no channeling of Willow at all. Great job. I too think the note/message was something sweet and smoopy from Weevil to Lilly - not incriminating. Got to go pick up Elise - I wonder how long this thread will be tomorrow? ;D I'm nodding along with you about stuff hitting the fan next week, except I think it'll keep hitting it for the rest of the season! I think we'll have a whole lot of secrets and feelings spilling out of everyone!
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Post by Lola m on Apr 20, 2005 7:46:10 GMT -5
Very well stated, Patti. I'm not going to sit here and say I love the character of Aaron now...but I...what was it Buffy said to Dawn about Spike? I feel for him. He was a victim too, once upon a time. This episode makes a pretty strong case that Aaron isn't merely playing his latest role here; the man seems to be genuinely attempting to connect with the remains of his family. Since he obviously has heavy and complex issues, tonight's attempt manifested itself rather violently...but hey! Can't say the guy didn't deserve the beating. Random stuff: 1. The best indication of talent in an actor, to me, is his or her ability to make you forget anything else you know of them. By the mid-point of this episode, I didn't even think about who was on-screen; I only saw vapid, self-involved Trina. I'm not surprised with how good Aly was, but it's always nice to see confirmation on screen. 2. I also wasn't surprised by Aaron's easy recognition of what had happened to his daughter. When he did his about-face and agreed to meet with Dylan, I immediately knew what was coming. 3. One thing that DID surprise me a little: how great Harry Hamlin was tonight. He made me pity and fear Aaron at the same time. Obviously the writing was there, but it's still not a simple thing to bring off. Hamlin's work elevated his status from TV Land nostalgia-casting (which was how I'd previously perceived him) to an important character. Very much with you on the appreciation (and a bit of the surprise) of Harry Hamlin's acting. Pity and fear is exactly how that scene felt. It was very effective, and he was a large part of that. Yes, as you said, there is the writing and the setting and music and the other characters reactions, but it could never have been the amazing scene without his performance. Looking up to greet Logan with the remark about school? Funny and creepy and cool and chilling. Oh, yeah! Sadly, (for my guess, but not because I don't agree with the bitca-ness of Celeste), I think you are correct. Well, later she mentioned that she had said they were close to catching the real murderer, or something like that, and that he'd gone straight to Lily's. But I'll have to rewatch, because when she said that, I remember thinking "you did?". They're definitely giving us reason to suspect everyone! But also, I think, making the point that Eli isn't just a fluffy-bunny "tough guy with a heart of gold". He has some true bad-guy-ness to him, and we, and Veronica, should remember that. He does have the helpful good-guy tender side we've been seeing too, but I think they want us to remember he's more than that. #rofl1# Liberated it from Keith's safe or back account? Knowing that she'd have to be sure to get it back before he knew it was gone? **pats Rob soothingly** Hey, I have a bit of Veronica/Wallace shipper in me too. We may yet see something! ;D ;D ;D ;D His mom works at Kane Software, doesn't she? I seem to remember they mentioned that when talking about the family moving to Neptune. **nodding in a slightly scared and nervousway** Good gots! Lola
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Post by Pixi on Apr 20, 2005 7:55:34 GMT -5
Something I thought was completely cold - Aaron hanging up on Logan while he was trying to talk to him about Trina's boyfriend. This really emphasized to me how little Aaron cares for Logan.
The earlier postings about how he protects the girl and abuses the son play out here but I also think there is no love or affection at all in Aaron's feelings toward Logan.
That whole reconnecting with his family seems like another role to me. One he has thrown himself into wholeheartedly. Logan is just part of the package.
I felt so bad for Logan when his dad hung up on him like that.
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Post by Sue on Apr 20, 2005 7:57:03 GMT -5
These quotes make me all bittersweet. Which is the very BEST chocolate. ok, I'm going to create...THE POLL! eta: I did, but I had to leave out Keith Mars and Abel Koonz because there are only 8 slots. I figure those two are definitely out of the running, right? I would think Keith was definitely out. On the other hand, why did you rule out Abel? (I see you included Logan---you really aren't buying that air-tight alibi are you?) I was actually going to vote for Abel (which is NOT what I turned in for my guess.) But as I considered the double-frame of the previous episode, I decided Abel really did kill Lilly (for revenge). Jake probably doesn't know this: Duncan got home, found the body, (maybe even saw the murder), held dying Lilly (who maybe told her secret to him)--ergo the blood. Duncan repressed the memory (maybe had a fit after the fact.) Jake and Celeste got home--saw Duncan and assumed the worst. Abel agrees to take the fall for the money but he really did it anyway so double sweet revenge---he gets paid for killing boss's daughter! So he is "framed" by computer geek Jake (parallel to Pete framing Norris). THEN the less than bright law enforcement officer (Lamb) falls for the whole scenario (parallel to Ben) and buys into it. However, he wants to make sure of a conviction so he takes the sneakers which were confiscated as evidence from Lilly's room and plants them on Abel's houseboat (parallel to the planted fertilizer). Why am I posting all this? Well, I didn't submit his name and I can't vote for him so, in the unlikely event that I may have actually stumbled on the real scenario I want a record of my brilliance to point back to. The best thing about it is that it allows a known cast member to be guilty without it being anyone we love---or even anyone we love to hate. We all just hate Abel and he clearly wasn't coming back next year anyway! Yep! I'm talking myself into it!
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Post by Sue on Apr 20, 2005 8:01:42 GMT -5
everything's winding down, or up really... Summer's going to be boring...but more time to plan for S'cubiefest! First: artemis is correct: Episodes 20, 21, 22 left. The good news is that they are supposed to be showing repeats this summer. If they start May 17 and show all 22 episodes in order every Tuesday they can repeat them all and do the fall premiere on Oct 18. (But I doubt they will make that much sense---probably leave some out). I like the idea of being able to go back after the ending and watch for clues and foreshadowing.
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Post by Pixi on Apr 20, 2005 8:05:13 GMT -5
I would think Keith was definitely out. On the other hand, why did you rule out Abel? (I see you included Logan---you really aren't buying that air-tight alibi are you?) I was actually going to vote for Abel (which is NOT what I turned in for my guess.) But as I considered the double-frame of the previous episode, I decided Abel really did kill Lilly (for revenge). Jake probably doesn't know this: Duncan got home, found the body, (maybe even saw the murder), held dying Lilly (who maybe told her secret to him)--ergo the blood. Duncan repressed the memory (maybe had a fit after the fact.) Jake and Celeste got home--saw Duncan and assumed the worst. Abel agrees to take the fall for the money but he really did it anyway so double sweet revenge---he gets paid for killing boss's daughter! So he is "framed" by computer geek Jake (parallel to Pete framing Norris). THEN the less than bright law enforcement officer (Lamb) falls for the whole scenario (parallel to Ben) and buys into it. However, he wants to make sure of a conviction so he takes the sneakers which were confiscated as evidence from Lilly's room and plants them on Abel's houseboat (parallel to the planted fertilizer). Why am I posting all this? Well, I didn't submit his name and I can't vote for him so, in the unlikely event that I may have actually stumbled on the real scenario I want a record of my brilliance to point back to. The best thing about it is that it allows a known cast member to be guilty without it being anyone we love---or even anyone we love to hate. We all just hate Abel and he clearly wasn't coming back next year anyway! Yep! I'm talking myself into it! Ohhh I like this. I've thought with all the framing/double frame/influence behind the scene that something like this is a possibility too. How fun and great is a show that we can come up with multiple scenarios and have all of them work. I just had another thought - the last thing Lilly says to Veronica is I've got a secret. So could the message in the secret message pen be more important than I was thinking? If it was - then Weevil knows something important and isn't telling? Or what? Gah - and now we have to wait a whole week again. GRRRRR!!! The preview on UPN is full of goodness and I can see how they are going to segue into things at this point. So don't watch it if you don't want ideas floating about your brain because it is very different from the previews that aired after the show last night.
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Post by Pixi on Apr 20, 2005 8:06:18 GMT -5
First: artemis is correct: Episodes 20, 21, 22 left. The good news is that they are supposed to be showing repeats this summer. If they start May 17 and show all 22 episodes in order every Tuesday they can repeat them all and do the fall premiere on Oct 18. (But I doubt they will make that much sense---probably leave some out). I like the idea of being able to go back after the ending and watch for clues and foreshadowing. Oh me too, me too. I am so kicking myself for not keeping my earlier tapes but I really want it all on DVD so I can watch straight through without commercials.
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Post by Sue on Apr 20, 2005 8:10:54 GMT -5
Will definitely be responding to Rob's and Pixi's long, thoughtful posts later (probably after everyone else has had a chance to milk them dry ), but I've read everything and unless I skimmed over something has anyone asked: What made Keith decide to do the DNA test now? Celeste's comments. Has he been unaware all this time of the possibility that Veronica was not his? What a shock! How sad. Maybe, like Veronica, he is doing the test as an initial reaction to the information and by the time he gets the info back will realize it doesn't matter. (I know someone suggested this. But I want to know---still, I could see Keith tossing the results and it only coming out 2-3 seasons from now when Jake suspects and finds out, that she is really Jake's).
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Post by Bluesman on Apr 20, 2005 8:21:29 GMT -5
Celeste decreasingly looks like the killer. In fact, I begin to suspect none of the Kanes killed Lilly. So I have to look at other alternatives.
I don't rule out Abel Koontz and Clarence Weidman in some sort of plot to take the Kanes. Abel despised Jake Kane, so it is easy to believe he would not protect the Kanes merely for financial gain. Lianne Mars is an attractive killer in terms of maximum impact on Veronica--maybe too much so.
Robert Thomas has really done quality work in bringing about the Logan/Veronica relationship. The kiss last episode and the kisses this episode, wow! How did we get from the pyschotic ass in the pilot to this Logan? But I don't see us ending the season with hearts and flowers between Veronica and Logan. These two kids hurt too much and Veronica is either going to use Logan in some manner that pisses him off or her deep and extremely rational trust issues are going to leap to some conclusion that hurts Logan. She does tend to leap to conclusions.
Of course, we now know we'll have a second season for Robet Thomas to put Logan and Veronica back together. Nancy remains convinced the note in Lilly's pen reveals or hints at Weevil's homosexuality. Of course, Nancy is so into Weevil, she'll be thrilled to learn he's straight. I'm not sure what is going through her mind to be honest, other than I dare not breath loudly or mutter a sound when Weevil's on the screen. She also noted it looks like he'll be on an upcoming episode (Francis Capra) of Blind Justice. She'll be watching that episode; I'll take a pass.
Bluesman
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Post by Pixi on Apr 20, 2005 8:35:31 GMT -5
Robert Thomas has really done quality work in bringing about the Logan/Veronica relationship. The kiss last episode and the kisses this episode, wow! How did we get from the pyschotic ass in the pilot to this Logan? But I don't see us ending the season with hearts and flowers between Veronica and Logan. These two kids hurt too much and Veronica is either going to use Logan in some manner that pisses him off or her deep and extremely rational trust issues are going to leap to some conclusion that hurts Logan. She does tend to leap to conclusions. Of course, we now know we'll have a second season for Robet Thomas to put Logan and Veronica back together. Nancy remains convinced the note in Lilly's pen reveals or hints at Weevil's homosexuality. Of course, Nancy is so into Weevil, she'll be thrilled to learn he's straight. I'm not sure what is going through her mind to be honest, other than I dare not breath loudly or mutter a sound when Weevil's on the screen. She also noted it looks like he'll be on an upcoming episode (Francis Capra) of Blind Justice. She'll be watching that episode; I'll take a pass. Bluesman I too stand amazed at the evolution in Logan's character and in a this all seems natural, they did this just right way. I did not like Logan in the pilot, pretty much dismissed him and slowly over the course of the season - bolstered by some fantastic chemistry and unbelievably fine acting choices - became totally involved in his character. I think the key was that breakdown in the hotel after Logan faced the truth that his mother was dead. That has made his changing toward Veronica believable. She and only she helped him. She was there when he broke down. She didn't tell anyone or task him with it in any way afterwards. Plus they have a history a background. In the Wrath of Con he tells Lilly his first impression of VM was that she was hot. And they all shared all those moments together. So I find his changing -with her - and how great was it that they kept the snark elsewhere - believable. He trusts her, he is attracted to her, he is unsure what to do - the vulnerbility in his eyes when he is with her is so sweet. Plus - you know hot kissage. But yes - this is television - heartbreak and angst are right around the corner. I'm still so so happy we get a second season to hopefully bring them back together. Because I believe the writers on this show are talented enough to show a complicated, realistic relationship where they are angry, silly, frustrated, turned-on, wildly in love or wildly hating, real -life teenage relationship and keep it fascinating and interesting.
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Post by Queen E on Apr 20, 2005 9:05:17 GMT -5
Very well stated, Patti. I'm not going to sit here and say I love the character of Aaron now...but I...what was it Buffy said to Dawn about Spike? I feel for him. He was a victim too, once upon a time. This episode makes a pretty strong case that Aaron isn't merely playing his latest role here; the man seems to be genuinely attempting to connect with the remains of his family. Since he obviously has heavy and complex issues, tonight's attempt manifested itself rather violently...but hey! Can't say the guy didn't deserve the beating. Random stuff: 1. The best indication of talent in an actor, to me, is his or her ability to make you forget anything else you know of them. By the mid-point of this episode, I didn't even think about who was on-screen; I only saw vapid, self-involved Trina. I'm not surprised with how good Aly was, but it's always nice to see confirmation on screen. 2. I also wasn't surprised by Aaron's easy recognition of what had happened to his daughter. When he did his about-face and agreed to meet with Dylan, I immediately knew what was coming. 3. One thing that DID surprise me a little: how great Harry Hamlin was tonight. He made me pity and fear Aaron at the same time. Obviously the writing was there, but it's still not a simple thing to bring off. Hamlin's work elevated his status from TV Land nostalgia-casting (which was how I'd previously perceived him) to an important character. 4. Was Backup cool in tonight's episode or what? Did you see him stylin' in the back seat of the car when Veronica followed the Mexican sawhorse rider? That's how he rolls. 5. Celeste is a bee-yotch. Which pretty much eliminates her from the murder suspect list, if you ask me. 6. Ok, Weevil went straight to the Kane mansion from Mars Investigations. Did Veronica perhaps say something to trigger this sudden attack of felonious behavior? 7. Speaking of Eli, can't say I liked him very much tonight. He lied to Veronica, then manipulated her to spring him. When she discovered his true motive, all he gave her was a smartass remark. What could he possibly be hiding...and why? 8. Re #4: yes, I am aware it's safer for a dog to ride in the back seat, especially in a convertible. That doesn't change the fact that he was a bad mother (shut your mouth! I'm talkin' about Backup!) in this episode. 9. Ok, I hate continuity questions as much as anyone...but didn't last week's episode make it pretty clear Veronica was tapped out? Where, exactly, did she find $1,000.00 lying around? Perhaps she scotch-taped Logan's check back together and cashed it. 10. All right...fine. Logan and Veronica have chemistry. There. I said it. I'll try to let go of any future hope for Veronica/Wallace. Ever notice how nice, honest and relatively uncomplicated guys never wind up with the lead female character? Always the best buddy. I tell you, it's gettin' old fast. 11. Sing it with me: who is the dog who helps to save his brother dogs? Backup! You daaaamn right! 12. Did next week's preview suggest Wallace's mom somehow being involved with Clarence Weidman? That'd be an unpleasant twist. Incidentally, Weidman's signature top hat is an almost exact replica of my Grandpa Selmer Sorenson's. He wore it to all church functions. 13. Aforementioned preview also says something about a connection between the rape and Lilly's murder...which I think most of us suspected all along. I should point out that I never actually believed my post from the previous episode thread regarding Troy as the rapist. That's the sort of scenario I would want to see...but it looks more and more likely that it's going to be a character we know considerably better. Which I really, really do not want. 14. I'd be a little worried about my future health if I were the rapist. If Logan or Keith don't kill the perpretrator, Wallace just might. If I could envision a scenario where Wallace could be violent, this would fit the bill. That's all I've got. Rob, dude, you rock my world. You're the true Shaft...
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Post by artemis on Apr 20, 2005 9:32:55 GMT -5
Nope, this is all Jake and Lianne's fault. But I don't like Celeste either. heh - i meant that keith wouldn't have done it right then, i don't think, if not for what celeste said to veronica in the office. but no, it's definitely not her fault that they had an affair.
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