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Post by Lola m on Nov 11, 2005 13:09:13 GMT -5
Is someone a rat? Has someone been ratting someone out? Don't they stuff a rat in your mouth before they kill you if you rat on someone in the underworld? I think the finding the rat moment was an excellent da da dun moment. Pixi, I think you're on to something! Who ratted out whom about what? The rat smell / bus crash occurred in the season's opening episode. What did the plot b concern? The conspiracy of the Boatload of Funners. Meg was the only 09er to fail. Apparently her parents weren't included in the group. Were they approached and declined on ethical grounds? And did someone with more to lose if the BOF was investigated think they or Meg ratted them out? The rat part of "Rat Saw God" is obvious? In the book, the GOD was an art club of sorts, but how does "God" fit into the VM episode? That's what points me to Meg's religious, morally scrupulous parents. Any other ideas how about the title applies? **nods** This is the kind of thing I've been wondering about - how "ratting someone out" could fit nicely into various conspiracy themes. Add in Erin's mention of property or homes I begin to see a pattern. Which of course means I will turn out to be completely wrong.
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Post by Karen on Nov 11, 2005 16:28:26 GMT -5
I'm fairly sure that Weevil and/or his gang burned the house, although I am holding some suspicion in reserve as we haven't seen quite the level of evidence that we did with Logan and Dick (gasoline cans). And I'm finding the storyline of escalating racial and class tensions very intriguing. It's so daring for TV to actually admit that such things exist, much less to permit it's main characters to be involved in them - particularly in an ongoing way, not just in a "very special episode". Although, what I am getting more and more interested in, is who really killed the guy on the bridge. I am still going with the premise that Logan didn't (not because in his drunken angry state he might not try it, but because I think he was too drunk and too beat up to succeed in killing one guy in the gang that was holding him down and beating the crap out of him). The juxtoposition of scenes obviously wants to make us think he did it, which is part of why I'm not completely convinced until I'm presented with other evidence. Call me cynical. OK, here's my theory on the house burning: It was Dick Casablancas. Weevil and the PCHers are too obvious, much like Duncan was too obvious as Lilly's killer. Episode 1, we see Dick and Cassidy loading gas cans into Logan's car (obstensibly to burn the pool...but that was a lot of gas). Same episode, Dick points out the "smell" that no one else really does, and orders a limo. Bus crashes. We see Big Dick involved in a real estate/stock scam involving hotels. So many house reference: Logan's pool house, the hallway in his house holding a huge clue to the crash, numerous scenes at Dick's house, Nicholas Cage's house. Why? I'm thinking that the big mystery of this season somehow rotates around the Casablancas, with the Logan/Weevil story as a related B plot. Interesting theory about the house references. Plus, 'casablancas' - white house? I'm on the side that Weevil and gang didn't burn Logan's house down. Not just because I lurve the bad-boy with a soft spot for Veronica (and Lilly), but because it just seems too obvious. I'm not sure that it could have been Dick's doing, tho, but I don't think his comment to Logan about 'doing his stepmother' was all that innocent and light, even though that's the way he played it. Dick really does not like Veronica. One of the first pieces of dialogue in this episode came from the Mayor's daughter to Veronica.....'What do you think about Dick?' - besides the obvious 12-year old thought, I think that question could have been directed to the audience.
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Post by Karen on Nov 11, 2005 16:33:06 GMT -5
Unless I've missed something, the show itself hasn't even hinted anything regarding Meg being with child. Isn't that mostly 'Net speculation stuff? As for Duncan not interested in sex...I think he took Logan in to help his friend. It's possible (in fact, in Duncan's case, even likely) he was clueless to all the ramifications of the arrangement. Unless, of course, Duncan's been on a revenge jag against everyone who'd been involved with Lilly...with no one exempted. Doing certain things himself, letting others be blamed so chaos would ensue, therefore having his perceived enemies take one another out. Thing is, can there possibly BE that sort of Machiavellian schemer inside Duncan? Is he the Iago in this whole mess? If so, Teddy Dunn's a better actor than I gave him credit for, 'cause color me shocked. My point is, it can't be both ways: Duncan can't be an evil genius/clueless lump. Those traits, I believe, would be mutually exclusive. One of them isn't real. Not sure where I'm going with this. Ah, but he doesn't have to be Machiavellian-ly clever. He could just be one side of Duncan we already know. The guy that just lets things happen. Add some passive-aggressive techniques and a lot of anger and you get someone who just . . . kind of lets the bad stuff happen, maybe tips things a little to the bad, depending on the person. *nods* Duncan's ability to shut himself down and withdraw from conflict, but also explode in rage shows a very mixed-up psyche.
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Post by Becky H on Nov 12, 2005 8:30:16 GMT -5
Just chiming in. By the time I get to post these days, everyone has said everything I wanted to say. But this episode was just too damned good to let go by without adding my voice to the acclamation. So here's a big Kansas SQUEE!
Hi, zimshan. Reading yours and Pixi's posts is like watching a very good tennis game - you both have such great things to say. Just curious: as a former Jersey girl myself, where in the Garden State are you?
And Pixi, I think the other Russian author was Turgenev.
Hey, I could add something after all!
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Nov 12, 2005 12:38:26 GMT -5
I got curious, and looked up Rats Saw God in the OC library system database. There seem to be about 25 copies in the system, so it must be popular.
Anyway, I found a summary and reviews of the book, which is apparently RT's first published novel.
Summary In hopes of graduating, Steve York agrees to complete a hundred-page writing assignment which helps him to sort out his relationship with his famous astronaut father and the events that changed him from promising student to troubled teen. Distributed by Syndetic Solutions, Inc.
Review In his first novel Thomas lays bare the pain, awkwardness and humor at the heart of one teenager's search for identity. Steve York has always lived in the long shadow cast by his too-perfect astronaut father. When his parents divorce just before he begins high school, Steve blames his father for the family's break-up, even though he doesn't know all the facts. Life with "the astronaut" (as Steve insists on calling him) is okay for a while as Steve juggles straight-As with a part-time job and hangs out with a wise-cracking crew of artsy, nonconformist cronies, one of whom, Dub, becomes his first love. But Dub's eventual betrayal causes Steve to flee his father's home and take a dive from scholar to stoner. His last chance for academic redemption lies in writing a 100-page paper for his new guidance counselor, a narrative that becomes the framework for this novel. Thomas, a former high school teacher, nails his setting with dead-on accuracy. The sharp descriptions of cliques, clubs and annoying authority figures will strike a familiar chord. The dialogue is fresh and Steve's intelligent banter and introspective musings never sound wiser than his years. Readers will likely enjoy the quick pace of Steve's journal-style flashbacks; on a deeper level, they will be moved by his emotional stumbles and impressed by his growing maturity. Ages 12-up. (June) Appeared in: Publishers Weekly, Jun 10, 1996 (c) Copyright 2004, Cahners Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier, Inc. All Rights Re served.
******* Gr 9 Up--"What happened in Texas?" asks Jeff DeMouy, the San Diego high school counselor trying to reach talented but stoned senior Steve York. The teen's 4.0 GPA has crashed so precipitously that he moves from Houston to live with his mother and her new husband. To fulfill a writing assignment that DeMouy requires for him to graduate, Steve begins to reflect on recent occurrences and his life in general. His first-person narrative flashes back to the years spent with his father, "the astronaut," who--the boy can't bring himself to recall--was either the third or fourth person to walk on the moon. Intelligent and mostly likable, Steve, along with his friends in the dadaist art study group at school, oozes a gently subversive strain of creativity. Through their club, he meets Dub (nee Wanda), with whom he journeys from first kiss to first sex to first betrayal, when Dub abandons him for their creative-writing teacher. The dead-on description of life as a bright underachiever makes the gradually converging stories, past and present, a delightful, challenging read. From the intriguing title to the final page, layers of cynical wit and careful character development accumulate achingly in this beautifully crafted, emotionally charged story. Steve's coming-of-age is not a smooth ballistic parabola, but more a series of explosive changes in relationships. These changes suggest to YA readers that, though complex and difficult, it is this weird willingness to establish interconnectedness that makes being human such a trip. This robust first novel is so hip and cool and strong it hurts.--Joel Shoemaker, Southeast Jr. High School, Iowa City, IA Appeared in: School Library Journal, Jun 1996 (c) Copyright 2004, Cahners Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
I haven't decided if I want to actually read the book, but it's nice to know that it's so readily available.
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Post by Sue on Nov 12, 2005 13:57:49 GMT -5
Just chiming in. By the time I get to post these days, everyone has said everything I wanted to say. But this episode was just too damned good to let go by without adding my voice to the acclamation. So here's a big Kansas SQUEE! Hi, zimshan. Reading yours and Pixi's posts is like watching a very good tennis game - you both have such great things to say. Just curious: as a former Jersey girl myself, where in the Garden State are you? And Pixi, I think the other Russian author was Turgenev. Hey, I could add something after all! Becky, You add something anytime you drop in and certainly when you take precious time to post! Hang in there. Sue
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Post by zimshan on Nov 12, 2005 15:59:58 GMT -5
I've been keeping up with the posts here, but haven't had enough time to respond until now. So I'm going back, way back... Anybody else think Rat Saw God is an anagram? Dog Was Tar? At Graw DOA? As Draw Got? Award Togs? Star O'Wodg? People that have read the RT's Book "Rats Saw God", have said that in the book it's author points it out as a palindrome. 'Dog Was Star'. If I remember the posts correctly, he obsesses abit on the idea of the palindrome, how and why it exists and how it relates to life as a whole. Even in the singluar form used for this ep, 'Rat Saw God', it can still be a palindrome. 'Dog Saw Tar'. It's readable forward or backwards, although either way it's quite surreal, illogical, and just a bit ridiculous. I do wonder what it has to say about the episode itself. It's been said that Steve's narratorization(is that even a word?) is highly remeniscient of Logan. Especially with the father issues. So it might have just been that RT couldn't resist using the title because there was a dead rat in an ep that was highly Logan, especially with the father issues and downward spiraling....
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Post by zimshan on Nov 12, 2005 16:09:07 GMT -5
That's nice for a no-tell motel for thirty a night. Haha. I was thinking the same. I was expecting her to open up the door to an ugly, dirt-on-the-wall motel room, and then it was pretty. What the hell, set designer? You guys are slacking... OoO. Very true. The gallery thing was fun, but Keith totally would have tracked her after hearing all that information.
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Post by zimshan on Nov 12, 2005 17:28:21 GMT -5
My only complaint was that I didn't quite get how Veronica solved the mystery of the other guy, the killer. That was a bit abrupt. Ah, yea. And the fact that that that comment of brown hair, medium height, and t-shirt and her jumping to the boyfriend. Doesn't that describe like half the population of guys in the world? But I can overlook little things like that... Aww, he said it was one of his favorite episodes? I don't remember reading that. But I can totally see how it would. It looks like he had a ball with this script! Hehe. Let's band together and demand Cliff every week! Omg. Can you even imagine? Okay, everyone keeps talking about this. Who was the top model? It didn't even notice it, which I guess is good because that means it wasn't bad... Hehe. I liked how they had to give her a major thing to work on so she could really focus her attention onto it. It's just oh so Veronica. I did like that we got that frozen horror look especially when it contrasted so much to Duncan and Dick's reaction. And what on earth was up with that, by the way? They're all excited about getting fakes while Logan's in jail? Dick's a bad influence on Duncan. Reminds me of 108, 'Like a Virgin' when Duncan joins Dick in making horribly bad fun of Meg and her scores. And then he went and dated her. Grr, Duncan. Just grr.
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Post by zimshan on Nov 12, 2005 17:35:52 GMT -5
Throwing out for discussion: Veronica - in her voiceover for the final scene - says she is coming home to her adorable (gag) HONEST boyfriend. Thinking it's Duncan. I think we are clearly, clearly being given an indication that there is something going on with Donut and that this is foreshadowing. Because the wording - just weird. And I think all of Duncan's weird behavior is hiding something. And while I don't think they are going to retcon the solution of Lilly's murder - I do think that Aaron saying it was Duncan - choosing Duncan as his defense means something. We are being given hints that something is up with the Donut. All of his mysterious behavior - the Veronica stalking, the Meg hospital lurking, his standing by and notice while his friend is being rearrested again he chooses his favorite option of idly standing by - all seem to hint to me of Donut deception. Something is up. Yea, one poster was saying how Veronica calling Duncan her "honest boyfriend" only to literally find out he's not who she thinks he is, jsut reeks of hints. I do think there's something major that Duncan is hiding. Maybe it's something that he finds small and little but could have major ripple effect. And I do think that it will be caused by him standing idly by. That seems to be RT's montra with him, and I don't see him recanting that. Still I think RT's got something major under his sleeve for Duncan....
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Post by zimshan on Nov 12, 2005 17:58:57 GMT -5
A solo post devoted to the fabulousness of Harry Hamlin. Once again you absolutely ruled. Great, great scenes. And I want to give full props to the writers for making Harry everything he was in Season one. Still on his quest for improvement - psychology degree, reading the Russian Masters (and did anyone catch the second Russian master named - Tolstoy and ?) I loved the way he was evil and yet still living in his little - well I just snapped, I made a mistake, this is no big deal that I killed Lilly world and yet you could still see that he loved Logan. In his own warped twisted way of course. I mean I actually started thinking - did Duncan do it for a moment there. That's how good HH was in that scene. And then all the snarking to Keith, ending on that chilling moment when Keith says I was just showing you how easy it is for me to get to you. Shiver. I went back and watched this last night again, and what jumped out at me was how HH played that second scene with Keith completely echoing JD's Logan. The smirk, the hand movements, the high eyebrows, and then the reaction to the accusation. It scared the ever livin' daylights out of me when I realized it. Eeeks! Talk about chip off the old block...
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Post by zimshan on Nov 12, 2005 18:13:14 GMT -5
Enbom again. As in the writer. Enbom got the fake IDs. Enbom one of the Boatloads of Fun families. Interesting. I hadn't remembered Enbom being one of the Boatloads of Fun families so I went back to check. Here's the list for future references, because I'm sure we'll need it: Billy and Mary Jo Patton, Larry and Nancy Crawford, Milt and Milly F-over, Fo, uh, Mike and Lill Wacker, Esther Pomroy, and there's one more, Walt and Bunny Day. But although Enbom wasn't one of those families, I was interested to see his name did appear in the 201 script. Look: FLASHBACK: VERONICA: Dick. Hey, Cassidy. CASSIDY: What's up, Veronica? LOGAN: Boys.
Dick opens the back of the Xterra.
DICK: Got the supplies. Enbom and Rams are gonna meet us at the Sac-N-Pac.
Cassidy and Dick start to load gasoline into the back of the Xterra.I'm finding this quite interesting. Enbom was one of the ones who helped them burn down the community pool. So he's involved in this class warfare deal. He's one of the ones who's got Logan's back. I wonder if we'll get to see him at all. Since he technically was in the pilot they might be apprehensive about bringing him back if they can't get the same actor. Wouldn't want it to screw around with the continuity score they've got going. But it'd be awesome if they could get him to make an appearance since he's been all over the script lately. And I'm going to just assume that it was his father that was the director of 'The Long Haul' and now he owns his own airlines. A nice career change.
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Post by zimshan on Nov 12, 2005 18:27:07 GMT -5
Well, this is an oft-repeated theme throughout VM last season and this. Many of Veronica's "solutions" wind up dragging in folks who wind up hurt by the knowledge which is uncovered. Ah, yes, and it's very typical theme for film noir in general. To be more than willing to let the ends justify the means in order to obtain a goal or prove a point. Yup, RT just keeps going with these noir angles and I love it!
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Post by zimshan on Nov 12, 2005 18:37:00 GMT -5
My opinion: I also think that the PCHers burned the house. However, since I am so very very often so very very wrong about these things this proves nothing. Still---remember that they think Logan killed their friend, got off once and now is out on bail and in their faces. They probably feel pretty powerless on top of lots of rage at all sorts of inequities which may not be Logan's fault directly, but he's the poster boy for class oppression. Plus there are still unresolved Lilly issues between those two. So, yes, I could definitely see a gang of guys egging each other on to commit really, really bad stuff. Logan's retaliation: also really bad, but I believe he things it is fitting: They stole his house (and, remember he's lost his mom and his dad---the house and the possessions are all he has left of that life---I'm pretty sure they destroyed a whole lot more than just his place to sleep); his home, his memories, what was left of his previous life. So he feels that taking Weevil's home is turnabout/"fair" play. Of course he's not thinking, "Well, I have the money to get another house and I'm putting helpless old lady literally on the street." He's thinking: you took my house, I'll take yours. It's a power struggle and Logan is feeling pretty powerless right now too. (Not defending him, just tryint to get into his head.) *nods head* 'Get tough, get even.' That's exactly what he was doing. And in Logan's defense, he could have gone and torched Weevil's house too, (which I actually totally expected he might do) but he didn't. Took the more 'Logan' approach by exercising his status and money power. Less with the menancing and violence, more with the smuggery. I do wonder though. RT has literally stripped Logan of everything now. Girlfriend, mother, father, other girlfriend, and now his house. The only thing he's got left is his money. And I can't help but wonder if RT's playing on tackling that next. So he literally is left with nothing. Because all RT keeps talking about is pain for this kid, and I can totally see this being the next step...
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Post by zimshan on Nov 12, 2005 19:10:45 GMT -5
So what does everyone think about the rat? (oh and Erin you did totally call this so kudos). It's interesting, isn't it , that the rat was at the back of the bus. When Dick complained about the smell Miss Dumas told him to move to the front of the bus. When we see them start riding home - Meg is at the back of the bus. Meg is the only one to survive - so far that is. Was the rat/smell placed in the back of the bus so that most of the kids would be in the front of the bus where they would be killed? Was the explosion in the front? The rat's purpose seems to most definitely be the smell. Whether it was to mask another smell or to get the kids to another area, I don't know. But want I do find interesting is that the bus had no immediate sign of an explosion. So it must have been something internal that exploded which causes the bus to go off the cliff. Either brakes, or steering? At any rate, that doesn't really help the rat stuff. Because if the explosion was internal, then why would it have been important for the kids to be in front? Unless there's some crazy physics explanation involved. I don't know. A stupid rat is making my head spin! Look at what you've done RT!! I had originally thought the title was plural rats, and was trying to figure out where all the rats were. I didn't get very far. Just lots of guesses... Lamb rats on Veronica to Keith. He also ratted Keith out about not charging Ed Doyle with a DUI, causing him to lose. Perhaps the ratting out could go back to what's on Meg's computer. (Whatever's on that computer, I'm convinced that it's valid, important information into the case in a way that Meg never would have realized.) Or perhaps it leads us back to Curly, and how he might been set out to rat someone out before someone killed him. Or the bus crash was to squelch someone who was planning on ratting someone out. You could argue that Duncan is behaving suspiciously, or 'rat-like'. But to me, the thought of 'rats' goes back to the greed theme that has been ongoing this year. Money. It relates to selfishness and untrustworthiness, that ultimately goes back to the political arena, the sheriff, and the mayor. Dun, dun, dun....
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