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Post by zimshan on Nov 12, 2005 19:14:11 GMT -5
Okay, so I haven't gotten to read everyone else's posts yet, so much of this has already been discussed. It's been a crazy day today...and I chose to end it by writing a really long post of filled with rambling thoughts. So typical of me... Immediate reactions et al.... ************************************************* OH. MY. GOD. Mucho Logan + Mucho Cliff + Mucho Clarence + Koontz reappears + dead body + Joss Cameo + Harry Hamlin = BEST EPISODE EVER!! ;D Seriously, could that have been any more amazing? I had such unbelievably high expectations for it after hearing all the buzz, and they completely exceeded them. And I thought the last one was golden. Hah! This blew every other episode this season RIGHT out of the water! At this point, I'd seriously go so far as to say that it was the best ep ever. Okay, so I'm probably not reliable enough to determine that now seeing as how I've only watched it once but…OMG! Pixi? I think you may have been out-squeed! ;D zimsham meet Pixi; Pixi meet zimshan: SOULMATES 4EVAH! (I know you guys "know" each other, I just got a kick out of your similar reactions to the episode. I get a visual of the two of you clasping arms and jumping up and down and squeeing. Now all we need is Rae to stop in!) More comments on zimshan's specifics later. *Joins Pixi in her jumping up and down/squeeing mode*
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Post by zimshan on Nov 12, 2005 19:21:02 GMT -5
Side note: the guy that got the fake IDs for them all from Rhode Island is referred to in the close captioning as "M-bomb" or "N-bomb". Just taped over it, so I don't remember for sure. Yea, I noticed that. At first I thought it was a different play on the writer - Enbom -'s name, like someone's nickname, but now I think they definitely meant the kid, Enbom. And yes, I'm the crazy girl in the corner who always watches her television with closed captioning simply because I think it enhances my viewing experience. People think I'm nuts, but you catch somuch more dialogue when you have it on. I go insane without it! ;D
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Post by zimshan on Nov 12, 2005 19:26:46 GMT -5
As I recall, (someone correct me if I'm wrong) the scene with Clarence showing up with ice at the Kane family estate was a theory on Veronica's part that was playing out in her head. Oh, crap. Yea, you're right. Well there goes that theory! So maybe the writers were actually using continuity to reinforce that Veronica's mind strangely equates ice with Wiedman. Hehe.
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Post by zimshan on Nov 12, 2005 19:34:33 GMT -5
Complete loyalty to Kane Software seems to be Clarence's linchpin. Of course, that loyalty gets him what he wants or he wouldn't do the things he does. But it sure is a powerful force, that loyalty. Ah, yea. I'm hoping we will get to see more of him, and maybe he can be the one fulfilling Jake Kane's threat to Aaron, since he himself can't be around. I really, really want to see that addressed....
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 12, 2005 19:36:11 GMT -5
Anybody else think Rat Saw God is an anagram? Dog Was Tar? At Graw DOA? As Draw Got? Award Togs? Star O'Wodg? I sorta thought it was an anagram - sorta. I have provided my theory on this title in my review . . . lemme know what you think! (I just sent it to Vlad moments ago, so don't go look for it now, but soon!)
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 12, 2005 19:37:57 GMT -5
Joss is so geeky! Trying to impress her with German. "White. It's called white." "Stain." "Stained." "Kinda like that guy." Ah, Lamb, may you never change your weasely ways! "When you called to concede. Sorry I missed that call, by the way." Ouch! And then ratting V. out. Knotty schoolgirls. **snort** Good question. You've got millions of dollars and have been partying all over Europe, so what are you doing here? And Keith confronts her. Good! And gets her to tell him what's been going through her head - even gooder! Eeeeeeeeeeeeeep!!!!! Body in the ice chest! And Clarence Wiedman!!!!!!!!!!!!! I LOVED JOSS in the episode! Oh, he was the perfect geek! That look on his face! He's never gonna win any Emmys for his acting or anything, but it was just too adorable!
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 12, 2005 19:38:57 GMT -5
Amelia was with her boyfriend? Or am I missing something . . . Is it the boyfriend in the ice? Is it here? Clarence didn't do it? Aaron is such a sociopathic psycho liar killier guy. Go, Keith! I came out here to show you just how easily I can get to you. It is just too . . . odd to see Clarence and Veronica workign together. Logan, you can be such an asshole. Can't you see you make everything so much worse? Yes, yes you can. You just don't care. You want it to be worse - you already think it is worse and are hoping to spiral down even more than now. Evicting Weevil and his Grandma is low. Really low. Oh my god she's getting in so deep. "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegan". Veronica, Veronica, Veronica. And she lies to Abel to make his last days not terrible. In a family of well intentioned lies, one more won't hurt. Something tells me this is important . . . Logan's living with Duncan. Well, isn't that cosy? And Keith breaks in to look at the bus. Go, Keith! Look out, Keith!! What was that he saw??? But the hand was a girl's hand - no?
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Post by zimshan on Nov 12, 2005 19:43:58 GMT -5
OK, here's my theory on the house burning: It was Dick Casablancas. Weevil and the PCHers are too obvious, much like Duncan was too obvious as Lilly's killer. Episode 1, we see Dick and Cassidy loading gas cans into Logan's car (obstensibly to burn the pool...but that was a lot of gas). Same episode, Dick points out the "smell" that no one else really does, and orders a limo. Bus crashes. We see Big Dick involved in a real estate/stock scam involving hotels. So many house reference: Logan's pool house, the hallway in his house holding a huge clue to the crash, numerous scenes at Dick's house, Nicholas Cage's house. Why? I'm thinking that the big mystery of this season somehow rotates around the Casablancas, with the Logan/Weevil story as a related B plot. OoO. Very interesting thought. I'm not too sure about seeing Dick actually take iniatitive to get something as huge as this done. But now I have to wonder, was Dick really as cool with the whole Logan/ Kendall thing as he let on? Has he lost his house yet? You'd think at some point, this is going to happen. That all of his father's assets would be gone. Right? And the one thing Dick values more than anything else is his money. If Logan is the reason why he has lost it, I can see him completely losing it. I keep going back to the inclusion of Dick's shooting practice shot in the credits. It leads us to that thought that Dick can be quite menancing...
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 12, 2005 19:50:54 GMT -5
Re the red: Right there with you, scooter. This bothers me a lot. It's one thing for Weevil and Logan to fight, or, in a broader sense, the PCHers and the '09ers (whoa, Outsiders flashback!), but what's happening is dragging in the uninvolved. I'm sorry, but Dick and Cassidy and Logan burning down the community pool is just wrong. Why should people who have nothing to do with this have to suffer, especially kids? Not to mention that Weevil's grandma worked for the Echolls for years, and exactly who started the fire is unresolved. All signs point to the PCHers, but, then again, all signs pointed to Duncan as Lily's killer. The fire could be related to the bus crash as well. Those boys are going to have to make up for; especially Logan and Cassidy, since, unlike Dick, they've shown a glimmer of humanity in the past. ETA: Of course, I'm open to the possibility that the pool burning was merely attributed to Dick, Logan, and Cassidy. Well, this is an oft-repeated theme throughout VM last season and this. Many of Veronica's "solutions" wind up dragging in folks who wind up hurt by the knowledge which is uncovered. Point in fact: the bus crash. Don't know who (or what) the motive was but durned sure that innocent bystanders got caught up in something they had no part of. As for the pool burning. I don't think there's any doubt that Dick and Logan were involved---they were loading the gasoline into Logan's car. And Logan made some snarky remark. This is a serious prank, but still only took away the access of some to a fun activity. Kicking someone out of their home is a whole different level of bad and if Logan actually goes through with it is going to seriously impact the viewers (my) ability to empathize with him. (Maybe not quite the level as the AR by Spike or Buffy beating Spike, but in some ways even worse since, as you point out, he's trying to hurt Weevil by attacking poor Grandma. At least B and S only went after each other. Not like Spike refused to help Dawn or Buffy beat up Clem.) Weevil lives with Grandma, right? So the target is Weevil. But Logan doesn't care if Grandma is hurt in the process.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 12, 2005 19:53:50 GMT -5
See - I'm going to disagree here. I think it is clear that Weevil burned down Logan's house. He is a bad guy. I mean - yeah we all like him for the way he help out Veronica in the past but still he told Veronica himself that a leopard can't change his spots. This scene coming after the hallway scene shows me yes Weevil and the PCHers burned Logan's house. And Logan retaliated in a way that he knew would hurt Weevil - through his grandmother. It wasn't nice but burning his house wasn't nice either. Neither of them are being "nice" to each other. And it does drag in the uninvolved but unfortunately collateral damage always happens in "warfare". I'm probably not expressing myself very well here but I think each action was in character for each of them. I'm not saying it's right but I think Logan is scared, unsupervised with no adult direction whatsoever, and is reacting in the only way he knows how to hurt Weevil. Weevil hurt him, he hurt him back. I love the way all of RT's characters are swimming in shades of grey. I for one don't believe Veronica is very ethical in many of her actions. I think Duncan's actions are probably motivated by a hidden (evil) agenda. I think Woody is probably behind the class warfare or if not, heavily implicated and even Keith- our beloved Keith should not have taken Alicia's papers by breaking in. This reminds me (in a weird way) of Spike's comment to Xander that magic always has consequences. And evil always has consequences that ripple out. The burning of the pool, house and eviction all hurt the one it's aimed at but also ripples out and hurts others. My opinion: I also think that the PCHers burned the house. However, since I am so very very often so very very wrong about these things this proves nothing. Still---remember that they think Logan killed their friend, got off once and now is out on bail and in their faces. They probably feel pretty powerless on top of lots of rage at all sorts of inequities which may not be Logan's fault directly, but he's the poster boy for class oppression. Plus there are still unresolved Lilly issues between those two. So, yes, I could definitely see a gang of guys egging each other on to commit really, really bad stuff. Logan's retaliation: also really bad, but I believe he things it is fitting: They stole his house (and, remember he's lost his mom and his dad---the house and the possessions are all he has left of that life---I'm pretty sure they destroyed a whole lot more than just his place to sleep); his home, his memories, what was left of his previous life. So he feels that taking Weevil's home is turnabout/"fair" play. Of course he's not thinking, "Well, I have the money to get another house and I'm putting helpless old lady literally on the street." He's thinking: you took my house, I'll take yours. It's a power struggle and Logan is feeling pretty powerless right now too. (Not defending him, just tryint to get into his head.) I think the PCHers torched the house, too. And yes - it's all about the power. The PCHers are trying to give Logan a message: "You can't get away with killing one of us, no matter who you are. We won't let you treat us that way." And then Logan gives one back: "You can't get away with torching my house, no matter how justified you think you are. I won't let you treat me that way."
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Post by zimshan on Nov 12, 2005 19:55:27 GMT -5
Just chiming in. By the time I get to post these days, everyone has said everything I wanted to say. But this episode was just too damned good to let go by without adding my voice to the acclamation. So here's a big Kansas SQUEE! Hi, zimshan. Reading yours and Pixi's posts is like watching a very good tennis game - you both have such great things to say. Just curious: as a former Jersey girl myself, where in the Garden State are you? And Pixi, I think the other Russian author was Turgenev. Hey, I could add something after all! Hi Becky! Ah, yes, New Jersey. Although right now I'm in NC for college, my home's in Central Jersey, around the New Brunswick area? It's gotten way too populated by us recently, so I must admit, right now I'm glad to be breathing some fresh air down here.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 12, 2005 19:55:43 GMT -5
See - I'm going to disagree here. I think it is clear that Weevil burned down Logan's house. He is a bad guy. I mean - yeah we all like him for the way he help out Veronica in the past but still he told Veronica himself that a leopard can't change his spots. This scene coming after the hallway scene shows me yes Weevil and the PCHers burned Logan's house. And Logan retaliated in a way that he knew would hurt Weevil - through his grandmother. It wasn't nice but burning his house wasn't nice either. Neither of them are being "nice" to each other. And it does drag in the uninvolved but unfortunately collateral damage always happens in "warfare". I'm probably not expressing myself very well here but I think each action was in character for each of them. I'm not saying it's right but I think Logan is scared, unsupervised with no adult direction whatsoever, and is reacting in the only way he knows how to hurt Weevil. Weevil hurt him, he hurt him back. I love the way all of RT's characters are swimming in shades of grey. I for one don't believe Veronica is very ethical in many of her actions. I think Duncan's actions are probably motivated by a hidden (evil) agenda. I think Woody is probably behind the class warfare or if not, heavily implicated and even Keith- our beloved Keith should not have taken Alicia's papers by breaking in. This reminds me (in a weird way) of Spike's comment to Xander that magic always has consequences. And evil always has consequences that ripple out. The burning of the pool, house and eviction all hurt the one it's aimed at but also ripples out and hurts others. Sue pretty much said what I was going to say about the rest of it, but I take issue with saying Weevil is a bad guy. How is Weevil not allowed the shades of grey that Logan is? I'm not saying that Logan is a bad guy, but I certainly wouldn't classify him as "good" either. Yes, Weevil is involved in a gang. We have yet to hear that he has murdered anyone, although theft and assault have been mentioned (Logan also could be accused of both crimes). He is loyal to his friends. He has a well-developed sense of family ties (taking the fall for his cousin in "Credit Where Credit Is Due"). Part of what makes Logan a fascinating character (and this is where the comparisons to Spike seem to occur), is that he really is a magnificent bastard. You want to hug him and smack him at the same time. And he and Weevil mirror one another in a myriad of ways... Definitely. Logan and Weevil are quite a lot alike, really. Logan isn't the only one who is a "sensitive boy," and Weevil is (obviously) not the only one who can be absolutely ruthless when he thinks it's necessary.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 12, 2005 19:59:25 GMT -5
This is somewhat unrelated, but it bothers me and I was just wondering (because I have not yet seen all the episodes of this season)… Did Logan at any point get rid of all the Aaron “memorabilia” in the house? It was just somehow really weird that Logan kept all those things that still reminded him of his father. They were all still there in Cheaty Cheaty Bang Bang, weren’t they? ETA: And immediately after I wrote this, I started thinking that maybe he just wanted avoid another confrontation with Aaron in case he gets out (which is pretty much what Pixi said). I wondered about that, too. But I imagine that the whole thing is very traumatic for Logan. It's hard to deal with, and do, all the "duties" that are required. Logan went through with formal emancipation, but - I can buy that it wouldn't be easy to go about the business of truly divesting himself of his father, completely. Also, there could be a simpler explanation: It would be a very big job, to get rid of all the Aaron stuff, in the house that the very vain Aaron built. But I guess that is all a moot point, now.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 12, 2005 20:01:08 GMT -5
So what does everyone think about the rat? (oh and Erin you did totally call this so kudos). It's interesting, isn't it , that the rat was at the back of the bus. When Dick complained about the smell Miss Dumas told him to move to the front of the bus. When we see them start riding home - Meg is at the back of the bus. Meg is the only one to survive - so far that is. Was the rat/smell placed in the back of the bus so that most of the kids would be in the front of the bus where they would be killed? Was the explosion in the front? And why is the little sucker still non-decomposty? I want Gil and Sara and Nick and Warrick (no Catherine please) going over the bus and figuring this all out. Is someone a rat? Has someone been ratting someone out? Don't they stuff a rat in your mouth before they kill you if you rat on someone in the underworld? I think the finding the rat moment was an excellent da da dun moment. Poor little rat sure saw God, didn't it?
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 12, 2005 20:04:48 GMT -5
Plus all the did he or didn't he impregnate Meg? And why is Duncan uninterested in having sex with Veronica? First he turns her down and then he invites Logan to live with them - which has got to cut down on the sex. Unless I've missed something, the show itself hasn't even hinted anything regarding Meg being with child. Isn't that mostly 'Net speculation stuff? As for Duncan not interested in sex...I think he took Logan in to help his friend. It's possible (in fact, in Duncan's case, even likely) he was clueless to all the ramifications of the arrangement. Unless, of course, Duncan's been on a revenge jag against everyone who'd been involved with Lilly...with no one exempted. Doing certain things himself, letting others be blamed so chaos would ensue, therefore having his perceived enemies take one another out. Thing is, can there possibly BE that sort of Machiavellian schemer inside Duncan? Is he the Iago in this whole mess? If so, Teddy Dunn's a better actor than I gave him credit for, 'cause color me shocked. My point is, it can't be both ways: Duncan can't be an evil genius/clueless lump. Those traits, I believe, would be mutually exclusive. One of them isn't real. Not sure where I'm going with this. I speculated on the preggers thing in my review of the Green-Eyed Monster ep (and I'm sure others did around the net also). The show has done no direct hinting, but I did think there were hints in the episode. Duncan mentions "continuing the Kane legacy," there's reason to believe Meg's parents are Catholic in the ep, and then, later, there's a reference to Irish Catholics who don't believe in birth control . . . and that ep is the one where Wallace learns of his true paternity. It just . . . might not pan out, but I thought the hints were there.
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