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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 12, 2005 20:07:11 GMT -5
I don't think Clarence is a murderer.
That is all.
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Post by Lola m on Nov 12, 2005 20:08:13 GMT -5
Just chiming in. By the time I get to post these days, everyone has said everything I wanted to say. But this episode was just too damned good to let go by without adding my voice to the acclamation. So here's a big Kansas SQUEE! Hi, zimshan. Reading yours and Pixi's posts is like watching a very good tennis game - you both have such great things to say. Just curious: as a former Jersey girl myself, where in the Garden State are you? And Pixi, I think the other Russian author was Turgenev. Hey, I could add something after all! Becky!! **squees with you** Thanks for the other author name, as I only half heard it and wasn't sure on the spelling.
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Post by Lola m on Nov 12, 2005 20:10:36 GMT -5
That's nice for a no-tell motel for thirty a night. Haha. I was thinking the same. I was expecting her to open up the door to an ugly, dirt-on-the-wall motel room, and then it was pretty. What the hell, set designer? You guys are slacking... OoO. Very true. The gallery thing was fun, but Keith totally would have tracked her after hearing all that information. Plus, I was surprised at the card key rather than old fashioned metal key. Seemed a bit . . . fancy.
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Post by Lola m on Nov 12, 2005 20:11:41 GMT -5
A solo post devoted to the fabulousness of Harry Hamlin. Once again you absolutely ruled. Great, great scenes. And I want to give full props to the writers for making Harry everything he was in Season one. Still on his quest for improvement - psychology degree, reading the Russian Masters (and did anyone catch the second Russian master named - Tolstoy and ?) I loved the way he was evil and yet still living in his little - well I just snapped, I made a mistake, this is no big deal that I killed Lilly world and yet you could still see that he loved Logan. In his own warped twisted way of course. I mean I actually started thinking - did Duncan do it for a moment there. That's how good HH was in that scene. And then all the snarking to Keith, ending on that chilling moment when Keith says I was just showing you how easy it is for me to get to you. Shiver. I went back and watched this last night again, and what jumped out at me was how HH played that second scene with Keith completely echoing JD's Logan. The smirk, the hand movements, the high eyebrows, and then the reaction to the accusation. It scared the ever livin' daylights out of me when I realized it. Eeeks! Talk about chip off the old block... I hadn't thought of it that way . . .
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 12, 2005 20:12:17 GMT -5
I've been doing some research on some of the items mentioned on the show for the Love Shack and thought I'd bring it over here for enjoyment. Some of the commentary is very off the wall and reaching and some of it is just for fun but I find it interesting that even off the wall comments can be included in the show's themes. Fred McMurray - referenced when Veronica calls Cliff while he is questioning Logan in jail. Fred McMurray was born in 1908 and died in 1991 after a long successful career in both television and movies. One of his most famous movies was Double Indemnity, which was released in 1944, and is considered one of the best film noirs ever produced. The movie is about an insurance rep who lets himself be talked into helping the lucious blonde femme fatale (played by Barbara Stanwyk) commit an elaborate murder/insurance fraud scheme. Nothing and nobody are quite what they seem to be in this movie which features greed, unbridled lust and betrayal of the seemingly innocent and beautiful. Things not what they seem, conspiracy, betrayal, shocking death - just another episode of Veronica Mars. Interestingly enough McMurray is also fondly remembered for his portrayal of a kindly and wise father in the television series My Three Sons which ran from 1960 - 1972. In a series where fathers play such a prominent role ( Keith - the good father, Wallace's Dad - the prodigal, unknown father, and Aaron - the evil father) - are we being led to another key father figure playing the role of Murderer Number 1? <snip> There are lots of references to "doubles" and such in the ep, so, though I didn't mention it in my review, I did wonder about the MacMurray movie, "Double Indemnity" that you mention. Overall, I thought the MacMurray mention was about "My Three Sons." I LOVED CLIFF! What a great role, and so well realized.
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Post by Lola m on Nov 12, 2005 20:13:09 GMT -5
Well, this is an oft-repeated theme throughout VM last season and this. Many of Veronica's "solutions" wind up dragging in folks who wind up hurt by the knowledge which is uncovered. Ah, yes, and it's very typical theme for film noir in general. To be more than willing to let the ends justify the means in order to obtain a goal or prove a point. Yup, RT just keeps going with these noir angles and I love it! **nods** The noir element was one of the first things that hooked me on the show last year.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 12, 2005 20:14:35 GMT -5
OK, here's my theory on the house burning: It was Dick Casablancas. Weevil and the PCHers are too obvious, much like Duncan was too obvious as Lilly's killer. Episode 1, we see Dick and Cassidy loading gas cans into Logan's car (obstensibly to burn the pool...but that was a lot of gas). Same episode, Dick points out the "smell" that no one else really does, and orders a limo. Bus crashes. We see Big Dick involved in a real estate/stock scam involving hotels. So many house reference: Logan's pool house, the hallway in his house holding a huge clue to the crash, numerous scenes at Dick's house, Nicholas Cage's house. Why? I'm thinking that the big mystery of this season somehow rotates around the Casablancas, with the Logan/Weevil story as a related B plot. Interesting theory about the house references. Plus, 'casablancas' - white house? I'm on the side that Weevil and gang didn't burn Logan's house down. Not just because I lurve the bad-boy with a soft spot for Veronica (and Lilly), but because it just seems too obvious. I'm not sure that it could have been Dick's doing, tho, but I don't think his comment to Logan about 'doing his stepmother' was all that innocent and light, even though that's the way he played it. Dick really does not like Veronica. One of the first pieces of dialogue in this episode came from the Mayor's daughter to Veronica.....'What do you think about Dick?' - besides the obvious 12-year old thought, I think that question could have been directed to the audience. Yes - I mean, are we supposed to forget that Dick encouraged Beaver to RAPE VERONICA?? I love the way the character is realized on the show, but as a person, I do not like Dick. Casablancas. He is not a nice guy.
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Post by Matthew on Nov 12, 2005 20:22:31 GMT -5
As I recall, (someone correct me if I'm wrong) the scene with Clarence showing up with ice at the Kane family estate was a theory on Veronica's part that was playing out in her head. Oh, crap. Yea, you're right. Well there goes that theory! So maybe the writers were actually using continuity to reinforce that Veronica's mind strangely equates ice with Wiedman. Hehe. Oooh! neat observation!
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Post by Sue on Nov 12, 2005 22:13:04 GMT -5
Haha. I was thinking the same. I was expecting her to open up the door to an ugly, dirt-on-the-wall motel room, and then it was pretty. What the hell, set designer? You guys are slacking... OoO. Very true. The gallery thing was fun, but Keith totally would have tracked her after hearing all that information. Plus, I was surprised at the card key rather than old fashioned metal key. Seemed a bit . . . fancy. Not fancy, practical. The metal keys walk off and don't get returned causing two problems: they are expensive to replace and it's a security issue. The cheapest hotels will most definitely switch to key cards. Some of the most very expensive still use keys but that's an affectation.
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Post by Sue on Nov 12, 2005 22:16:53 GMT -5
Interesting theory about the house references. Plus, 'casablancas' - white house? I'm on the side that Weevil and gang didn't burn Logan's house down. Not just because I lurve the bad-boy with a soft spot for Veronica (and Lilly), but because it just seems too obvious. I'm not sure that it could have been Dick's doing, tho, but I don't think his comment to Logan about 'doing his stepmother' was all that innocent and light, even though that's the way he played it. Dick really does not like Veronica. One of the first pieces of dialogue in this episode came from the Mayor's daughter to Veronica.....'What do you think about Dick?' - besides the obvious 12-year old thought, I think that question could have been directed to the audience. Yes - I mean, are we supposed to forget that Dick encouraged Beaver to RAPE VERONICA?? I love the way the character is realized on the show, but as a person, I do not like Dick. Casablancas. He is not a nice guy. I don't like him. I don't like the character, the actor, or the role. It's not a strong dislike, just a meh, spend the time on someone else. I hope that he is not a main cast member next year. And, regarding other posts about houses, has anyone mentioned -- doesn't Casa mean house? Is Casa-blancas "white house"? Feel free to correct me. Don't know any Spanish.
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Post by zimshan on Nov 12, 2005 23:25:34 GMT -5
Yes - I mean, are we supposed to forget that Dick encouraged Beaver to RAPE VERONICA?? I love the way the character is realized on the show, but as a person, I do not like Dick. Casablancas. He is not a nice guy. *nods head furiously* Yea, I don't get the Dick love AT. ALL. He wanted Beaver to rape Veronica, and makes a habit out of drugging his girlfriends. No matter what they do with his character, there is NO coming back from that for me. He may have some funny lines or what not, but I can't bring myself to support that character. And I'm really hoping that the writers don't try to make me. The fact that Logan is still friends with him erks me but now Duncan's chummy with him too? What the hell?
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 13, 2005 7:09:26 GMT -5
Yes - I mean, are we supposed to forget that Dick encouraged Beaver to RAPE VERONICA?? I love the way the character is realized on the show, but as a person, I do not like Dick. Casablancas. He is not a nice guy. *nods head furiously* Yea, I don't get the Dick love AT. ALL. He wanted Beaver to rape Veronica, and makes a habit out of drugging his girlfriends. No matter what they do with his character, there is NO coming back from that for me. He may have some funny lines or what not, but I can't bring myself to support that character. And I'm really hoping that the writers don't try to make me. The fact that Logan is still friends with him erks me but now Duncan's chummy with him too? What the hell? Yes - I believe we are meant to be suspicious of Dick. I don't think he is . . . just a harmless doofus with a loose mouth. I agree with Karen that he really doesn't like Veronica - the jokey "ewwws" disguise a real dislike. And I don't trust him at all. Poor little Cassidy!
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 13, 2005 7:10:59 GMT -5
Plus, I was surprised at the card key rather than old fashioned metal key. Seemed a bit . . . fancy. Not fancy, practical. The metal keys walk off and don't get returned causing two problems: they are expensive to replace and it's a security issue. The cheapest hotels will most definitely switch to key cards. Some of the most very expensive still use keys but that's an affectation. Earlier in the thread, someone - I think Erin - did mention the "white house" translation. No doubt, this foreshadows Dick's assent to the US Presidency.
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Post by KMInfinity on Nov 13, 2005 12:13:21 GMT -5
What a helluvan episode! Random comments while reading the thread: I join you all in praising the multiple goodnesses in this episode, especially the writing, with the multiple layers and meanings; and the actors, especially Christopher B. Duncan as Clarence Weidman and Darran Norris as Cliff, since it’s supporting actors of this calibre that set the show apart. And Joss of course. And once again, HH. And the regulars, natch. At the end of the week, the TVGuide link Pixi gave asks to vote for the best show all week. VM is currently 5th, behind Lost, Gilmore Girls, Gray’s Anatomy, and Arrested Devlopment. Most shows have no votes. www.tvguide.com/tv/watercooler/default.htmI’m impressed with all of the spec and theories people are discussing. I especially like that maybe Weevil’s gang is undermining him and acting without his knowledge; that the real estate issues might be the key to the bus crash; and that Duncan has layers we haven’t seen. I hate Dick. I am hoping his stepmom kicks his ass six ways from Sunday, and maybe murders him at some point. In addition to Tolstoy, the other Russian Master mentioned by Aaron was Turgenev. Turgenev preceded Tolstoy and Dostoevsky. In fact, Turgenev is much more like Flaubert, imo, with a focus on real characters and detailed description. Turgenev’s most famous work: Fathers and Sons. It’s been a long time since I read it. It’s shorter than the other Russian behemoths, about 250 pages. This novel had, as major themes, an examination of how fathers and sons war, a focus on how class struggle influences history, and most especially the idea of nihilism as a philosophy. Turgenev didn’t invent the concept, but was the first writer to explore it. Who does this sound like? "A nihilist is a man who does not bow to any authorities, who does not take any principle on trust, no matter with what respect that principle is surrounded." (from Fathers and Sons, 1862)
Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. Fathers and Sons is available free here: etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/t/turgenev/ivan/t93f/index.htmlA good analysis of Fathers and Sons can be found here. eis.bris.ac.uk/~rurap/novelsof.htm
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Post by Sue on Nov 13, 2005 13:19:28 GMT -5
What a helluvan episode! Random comments while reading the thread: I join you all in praising the multiple goodnesses in this episode, especially the writing, with the multiple layers and meanings; and the actors, especially Christopher B. Duncan as Clarence Weidman and Darran Norris as Cliff, since it’s supporting actors of this calibre that set the show apart. And Joss of course. And once again, HH. And the regulars, natch. At the end of the week, the TVGuide link Pixi gave asks to vote for the best show all week. VM is currently 5th, behind Lost, Gilmore Girls, Gray’s Anatomy, and Arrested Devlopment. Most shows have no votes. www.tvguide.com/tv/watercooler/default.htmI’m impressed with all of the spec and theories people are discussing. I especially like that maybe Weevil’s gang is undermining him and acting without his knowledge; that the real estate issues might be the key to the bus crash; and that Duncan has layers we haven’t seen. I hate Dick. I am hoping his stepmom kicks his ass six ways from Sunday, and maybe murders him at some point. In addition to Tolstoy, the other Russian Master mentioned by Aaron was Turgenev. Turgenev preceded Tolstoy and Dostoevsky. In fact, Turgenev is much more like Flaubert, imo, with a focus on real characters and detailed description. Turgenev’s most famous work: Fathers and Sons. It’s been a long time since I read it. It’s shorter than the other Russian behemoths, about 250 pages. This novel had, as major themes, an examination of how fathers and sons war, a focus on how class struggle influences history, and most especially the idea of nihilism as a philosophy. Turgenev didn’t invent the concept, but was the first writer to explore it. Who does this sound like? "A nihilist is a man who does not bow to any authorities, who does not take any principle on trust, no matter with what respect that principle is surrounded." (from Fathers and Sons, 1862)
Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. Fathers and Sons is available free here: etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/t/turgenev/ivan/t93f/index.htmlA good analysis of Fathers and Sons can be found here. eis.bris.ac.uk/~rurap/novelsof.htmWow, Karen, (KM---aka "the other Karen ) Great stuff on Fathers and Sons. I am so out of my depth with all of these literary allusions. I need to be doing the LOST numbers gig---but I don't find it nearly so fascinating. And you are soooooooo influential. You posted this an hour ago and I don't know how many of us have gone to the link, but I just voted and VM was ahead by a mile (32% with LOST second at 12%). So I'm guessing it's a very small sample of actual voters if it's that easy to change the percentages.
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