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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 14, 2005 15:40:02 GMT -5
Hi All! Wow! What an ep! Eetah with everyone's raves and kudos. Especial eeeeetah with the Cliff love. (In fact, I think zimshan was a little too restrained. ;D) The Cliff and Logan snark-fests are the scenes I've watched over again, just for the fun. I absolutely *loved* the way Cliff proved himself insult-proof by taking every insult and turning it into his own by acknowledging it and making it worse. One other thing about Cliff and Logan: their final scene in the jail cell seemed to me to be Logan imprinting Cliff as a father-figure. 'Cause he's seen the ethically-challenged father-acting Cliff did for Veronica, just as he subsequently saw the morally-challenged father-acting Aaron did in his cell. And Cliff's advice was virtually the same as Aaron's. But Cliff was actually the one person in the entire episode telling Logan off strictly for his own good, with absolutely no agenda except to get out of being the defense attorney in a "marquee" murder case. But the biggest difference between Cliff and Aaron, IMO, was that Cliff actually came through for Logan by delivering *more* than he promised instead of less. The biggest spark of hope that I saw for Logan in this dark episode was the fact that he preferred what Cliff offered over what Aaron offered. Other than the above, and the extremely funny lines and acting, I thought this was a dark, dark, dark episode. Seems to me that this one was all about the tragic consequences of well-intentioned lies. Just the dissonance of Abel Koontz (the ultimate liar for the protection of family) being showered with balloons and confetti -- brrrr. And IMO, RT shows promise of being Joss-level evil. 'Cause the two relationships that actually allowed Veronica to survive last year, Wallace and Keith, are being torn apart. Last episode was her relationship with Wallace. This episode, her relationship with her dad was shaken. This was also the second episode where Keith's parenting skills comes under fire -- last time it was Alicia, this time it was Lamb. And guess what? Lamb hasn't even told Keith about Veronica's date-rape report. Just one more of Veronica's well-intentioned lies. (And, IIRC, the only season 1 major plot point not to be mentioned in this episode.) To me that's the biggest unexploded bomb in their relationship. It's the one thing that could make Keith believe that his relationship with his daughter has just been a lie he's been telling himself. It's really scary to contemplate. And the damage to her relationships are due to things that she still seems to be doing. Her emails to Wallace seem to me to still be all about her and her concerns. And her lies to her dad are still happening, despite their discussion of the body at the beach -- she *had* to have heard the pain in Keith's voice. I hope I'm wrong about where the relationships are headed. Other random thoughts: I'm thinking that it's plausible for Aaron to have had the Echolls house torched to conceal some sort of evidence. He's definitely working the angles of his trial, as indicated by his "if you don't believe me, why should a jury?" remark. Oh, and one of Aaron's fatal flaws (aside from being a murdering violent cradle-robbing child-abusing cheating lying scumbag) is that he can't seem to just shut up. Despite his "I have nothing to say" meeting with Keith, he couldn't seem to stop talking in the face of Keith's silences. And it gave me a shiver to think that Keith's threat to Aaron regarding Veronica's safety would have particular impact when I thought about Aaron's version of "protecting" his daughter Trina. (Dang it, another Aaron-as-father parallel.) Eetah about the major badness if Logan carries out the eviction of Weevil's grandmother. IMO, he would be stepping over a line that would be hard to come back from, even if he truly believes that the PCHers burned all of his possessions and mementoes of mom. I believe that he *wants* them to kick his ass, but hurting the innocent is the worst way to get them to do it. Whoa about Clarence Wiedman. Eetah with Sue about him being bad for Veronica. I believe that her distress at his questioning style was real -- it was the snark afterwards that was a cover. But it's disturbing to think that her reaction to his chilling "Whatever happens in Vegas" remark isn't "Don't kill him or I'm calling the cops on you." ETA: On second thought, has Clarence actually killed anyone? He's good with the menace, but his MO seems to be more the cover-up variety. Huh. Another funny / disturbing thing: Dick and Logan's reconciliation. "Dude! My stepmom?" Logan admitted wrong-doing, but then Dick (deliberately?) upped to ick-factor by retroactively ogling Logan's dead mom. (Did I mention that this episode was dark?) JD was wonderful conveying how not-OK that was. Joss! Dude! (Yay, etc., but what about my Spike movie?) The bus seemed awfully shiny for something that had been submerged for a couple of weeks. Ooogh about the duct-taped rats, though. (I'm actually grateful they weren't slimier -- the way they would probably have been in the water.) Seems like the rats were connected to the smell which was the reason that everyone sat in the front. Except for Meg, who survived. So, the rats were there to ensure that everyone died? Linda, late, but what an episode! Wonderful, Linda! Loved this post! I especially liked the Cliff vs Aaraon as Father-figure for Logan thoughts. And I join you in the Cliff-love! The character is just wonderful - wonderfully written, wonderfully acted. Yes, it was a dark episode. And you point out another "Dick steps over the line" moment with mentioning Logan's dead mom. Ooook. I do think that boy has real problems - real darkness - underneath that blonde surfer-boy thing. Clarence - I kinda like Clarence. I think he's . . . ethically challenged - I mean, he helped arrange the Lilly cover-up that sent Abel to jail - but I don't think he's a murderer, or a would-be murderer. I wonder if Logan will follow through on evicting Weevil and his family? It seems to me that he's already put the wheels in motion, and intends to go through with it. Talk about your major bad blood between those two hot-heads, after that! I don't know where that would all end up. Good to hear from you, Linda!
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Post by Alice on Nov 14, 2005 16:31:27 GMT -5
I've been keeping up with the posts here, but haven't had enough time to respond until now. So I'm going back, way back... Anybody else think Rat Saw God is an anagram? Dog Was Tar? At Graw DOA? As Draw Got? Award Togs? Star O'Wodg? People that have read the RT's Book "Rats Saw God", have said that in the book it's author points it out as a palindrome. 'Dog Was Star'. If I remember the posts correctly, he obsesses abit on the idea of the palindrome, how and why it exists and how it relates to life as a whole. Even in the singluar form used for this ep, 'Rat Saw God', it can still be a palindrome. 'Dog Saw Tar'. It's readable forward or backwards, although either way it's quite surreal, illogical, and just a bit ridiculous. I do wonder what it has to say about the episode itself. It's been said that Steve's narratorization(is that even a word?) is highly remeniscient of Logan. Especially with the father issues. So it might have just been that RT couldn't resist using the title because there was a dead rat in an ep that was highly Logan, especially with the father issues and downward spiraling.... Ok - this might be a stretch, but I keep wondering... what is RT's middle initial? Because it could be a funny ana/pali gram drome which would read "R.A.T. was god"
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Post by Queen E on Nov 14, 2005 17:07:00 GMT -5
I've been keeping up with the posts here, but haven't had enough time to respond until now. So I'm going back, way back... People that have read the RT's Book "Rats Saw God", have said that in the book it's author points it out as a palindrome. 'Dog Was Star'. If I remember the posts correctly, he obsesses abit on the idea of the palindrome, how and why it exists and how it relates to life as a whole. Even in the singluar form used for this ep, 'Rat Saw God', it can still be a palindrome. 'Dog Saw Tar'. It's readable forward or backwards, although either way it's quite surreal, illogical, and just a bit ridiculous. I do wonder what it has to say about the episode itself. It's been said that Steve's narratorization(is that even a word?) is highly remeniscient of Logan. Especially with the father issues. So it might have just been that RT couldn't resist using the title because there was a dead rat in an ep that was highly Logan, especially with the father issues and downward spiraling.... Ok - this might be a stretch, but I keep wondering... what is RT's middle initial? Because it could be a funny ana/pali gram drome which would read "R.A.T. was god" Ooh, excellent thought, Alice! I did a little google-fu, but can't seem to find a reference to his middle name... (I've missed seeing you; glad you're around again!)
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Post by Michelle on Nov 14, 2005 18:34:37 GMT -5
Good catch, Fotada, about all the "mistakes" Veronica makes in the episode. The ep makes me hopeful as well, for Veronica's character growth, and this season! It's becoming a real potboiler. Thank you! And you wrote yet another excellent review, Spring! The episode was certainly enjoyable enough on its own, but you added about 16 more layers for me to contemplate now. For example, I've contemplated the twins imagery you mentioned. It reminded me that when Logan is talking to his father, he argues with him about Aaron killing his girlfriend, and when Aaron denies it, Logan points out that he tried to kill Veronica--also his girlfriend. So perhaps Lilly & Veronica are the Mary-Kate & Ashley of Logan's world? Identical in his eyes, both representing someone he loves, someone who has hurt him, someone he has lost.
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Post by Sue on Nov 14, 2005 19:03:27 GMT -5
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Post by zimshan on Nov 14, 2005 21:38:41 GMT -5
*jaw drops to floor*
WOW, Spring! That one just blew me away! I stand in amazement...
You made sense out of the title! I was sure there was just no way it made any sense in relation to the episode, but of course you found a way! Pulling it all together with Dadaism was just absolutely excellent!
I had been playing around the thoughts of truth and lies and I was trying to figure out the fire aspect, but I never even put that together with the ice dealings! Fire, ice. Lovely! And what's that? Oh just Shannon screaming, 'Symmetry!!' Again. RT's really keeping that one trick pony, isn't he?
I'd hate to be all 'general-comment-y' and run, but I've got a paper to finish before Wednesday. AHH!
But excellent job! Once again, I'm left stunned. And quite more VM knowledgable...I must rewatch this ep again. But oh, no! No time. *sighs* Is it Thanksgiving weekend yet?
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Post by Lola m on Nov 14, 2005 21:46:30 GMT -5
Wow!!! What an episode and what an analysis! I loved the visuals you used - the fire of Logan's house burning, the ice machine with the body inside. Your thoughts on twins and substitutes were very interesting and new to me. I hadn't noticed all the examples, but now they jump out at me. I hadn't even noticed the odd wording that Joss' character uses! What matters and what doesn't. Is Rob using this episode to try to guide us to what clues matter and what clues don't? Maybe he's telling us to not believe it when a first person is identifiied as guilty. That it is really someone else, or someone additional. After all, if it doesn't matter if the boyfriend is on the right or on the left, on the sofa or entering the room, then maybe he's telling us an individual "guilty person" doesn't matter, doesn't exist. The guilty parties can be substituted for one another. Hmmmmmm. You've sure given me a lot of food for thought! But it was your final summary that really pulled it all together. Wow! Just wow! Excellent episode and excellent analysis! Finally, snickering over the ballsy Sachs joke. I can't believe I missed that one entirely!! ;D
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Post by Pixi on Nov 15, 2005 6:25:57 GMT -5
I had heard about this but I hadn't seen it. Thanks for posting this Sue.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 15, 2005 7:37:10 GMT -5
Good catch, Fotada, about all the "mistakes" Veronica makes in the episode. The ep makes me hopeful as well, for Veronica's character growth, and this season! It's becoming a real potboiler. Thank you! And you wrote yet another excellent review, Spring! The episode was certainly enjoyable enough on its own, but you added about 16 more layers for me to contemplate now. Thanks. Yes - good catch - I think the "girlfriends" talk is also part of the "interchangeable/twins" imagery. Logan has two girlfriends; Amelia has two boyfriends; one of the first lines in the ep is Cliff saying "make it a double," about his drink; two days and two episodes of Ellen; Aaron complains there are only two chairs; it's all over the ep. I thought it was all about challenging the idea of uniqueness and individualism with the "one thing is as good as another," "it's all relative," idea of dadaism. But I'm guessing there could be other legit, quite possibly better, intrepretations of this. One thing for sure though, the references are definitely everywhere in the episode.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 15, 2005 7:46:09 GMT -5
*jaw drops to floor* WOW, Spring! That one just blew me away! I stand in amazement... You made sense out of the title! I was sure there was just no way it made any sense in relation to the episode, but of course you found a way! Pulling it all together with Dadaism was just absolutely excellent! I do think the title was deliberately obscure. Naming a work of art with a title that is, or seems, totally unrelated to its content is a very "dada" thing to do. But, then again - the art gallery, the "duh, Stain-duh," and Joss, a guy that everyone is comparing Rob to, being in this particular episode . . . with all it's mention of interchangeability and twins . . . right or wrong, it just sings to me. He's brilliant. Thanks so much for your wonderful encouragement and feedback. This particular review was a bear to do - it made my head hurt! So I have extra-appreciation for the feedback.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 15, 2005 7:49:58 GMT -5
Wow!!! What an episode and what an analysis! I loved the visuals you used - the fire of Logan's house burning, the ice machine with the body inside. Veronica also is shown taking that cup, with ice in it, from Cliff at the beginning fo the ep. Fire images for Logan, ice images for Veronica. No wonder she has to jump right out of his arms. She's afraid of rapid meltdown! No doubt it all is related to the central mystery in some way, but I'm coming up empty on the theories, there. Ballsy Sachs. Hee. The twelve year old corner is fun, huh? Thanks for the nice words on my review.
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Post by Pixi on Nov 15, 2005 10:23:45 GMT -5
Wow!!! What an episode and what an analysis! I loved the visuals you used - the fire of Logan's house burning, the ice machine with the body inside. Veronica also is shown taking that cup, with ice in it, from Cliff at the beginning fo the ep. Fire images for Logan, ice images for Veronica. No wonder she has to jump right out of his arms. She's afraid of rapid meltdown! No doubt it all is related to the central mystery in some way, but I'm coming up empty on the theories, there. Ballsy Sachs. Hee. The twelve year old corner is fun, huh? Thanks for the nice words on my review. I really like the fire and ice imagery. But it does trigger "Walk through the Fire" in my brain. I know ladydisdain has done a video of the VM characters to that song but I don't know the link right off hand. Still I am looking forward immensely to the day the ice queen melts in the fire. Unfortunately I'm starting to believe it might be May sweeps before it happens.
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 15, 2005 11:47:18 GMT -5
Whew! Just got thru everybody's posts. Great thoughts, all. Spring, great review, but when will get more Spikecentricity? Is that too five minutes ago? Rat saw God; a cat can look at a king, can't he? Reference to class warfare/relations? Logan is VM's "honest" boyfriend. Spike was always honest with Buffy; she couldn't see the truth of him. Is RT playing with that, or is it just me?
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 15, 2005 14:43:37 GMT -5
Whew! Just got thru everybody's posts. Great thoughts, all. Spring, great review, but when will get more Spikecentricity? Is that too five minutes ago? Rat saw God; a cat can look at a king, can't he? Reference to class warfare/relations? Logan is VM's "honest" boyfriend. Spike was always honest with Buffy; she couldn't see the truth of him. Is RT playing with that, or is it just me? Thanks, Di. No, I definitley don't think BtVS is too "five minutes ago." Just been kinda overwhelmed with other stuff and needed a long break. I honestly do plan to get back to them - I want to. Interesting theory on the class warfare being part of the meaning of the title.
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Post by Me not signed in on Nov 15, 2005 22:55:41 GMT -5
Awesome analysis, Spring! Once again, you've blown us all away.
Interesting though -- with all the fire and ice imagery, you didn't mention Robert Frost's poem (or was that too obvious? (and my apologies if someone has mentioned it -- I haven't gone through the whole discussion)):
Fire and Ice Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice. From what I've tasted of desire I hold with those who favour fire. But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate To say that for destruction ice Is also great And would suffice.
What gets me is the "apocalyptic-y" aspect of the poem, in conjunction with all the destruction and destructive behavior in the episode. Do we know that Amelia was dead before whoever-it-was stuck her in the ice machine? Or was that how the murderer killed her (hit her on the head or drugged her and left her to freeze to death)?
There's also a lot of "desire" and "hate" running rampant through the episode. Weevil and his boys clearly "desire" justice -- or their version of it -- and turn to fire to get it. And someone definitely "hates" (or fears) Amelia (or what she can potentially do) enough to resort to ice.
(The poem also picks up on your theme of "duplicity" -- "if it had to perish twice.")
Again, brava, cara!
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