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Post by KMInfinity on Nov 13, 2005 14:12:19 GMT -5
From Sue: (I can never get the hang of quotes within quotes......)
I'd never have thunk that TVGuide would have such a small poll participation!
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Post by zimshan on Nov 13, 2005 14:28:05 GMT -5
What a helluvan episode! Random comments while reading the thread: I join you all in praising the multiple goodnesses in this episode, especially the writing, with the multiple layers and meanings; and the actors, especially Christopher B. Duncan as Clarence Weidman and Darran Norris as Cliff, since it’s supporting actors of this calibre that set the show apart. And Joss of course. And once again, HH. And the regulars, natch. At the end of the week, the TVGuide link Pixi gave asks to vote for the best show all week. VM is currently 5th, behind Lost, Gilmore Girls, Gray’s Anatomy, and Arrested Devlopment. Most shows have no votes. www.tvguide.com/tv/watercooler/default.htmPimped it all over LJ VM communities right after you posted this, and we're already dominating with 42%! I knew if I sicced the lj fandom on them, it would be successful. We are quite powerful! BWAHAHAHAHAHA! Nothing gives me more joy than to see my little bitty show take the big behemoth Lost down a knock or too. Not that I have anything against the show. It just gets too much hype... So this makes me more happy than a stupid online poll probably should, but oh well... And wow! Excellent thoughts here! I haven't heard anyone else talk about this! The author of that book being mention, sooo not a coincidence. Oh, I love how intentional everything is on this show!
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 13, 2005 14:30:44 GMT -5
What a helluvan episode! Random comments while reading the thread: I join you all in praising the multiple goodnesses in this episode, especially the writing, with the multiple layers and meanings; and the actors, especially Christopher B. Duncan as Clarence Weidman and Darran Norris as Cliff, since it’s supporting actors of this calibre that set the show apart. And Joss of course. And once again, HH. And the regulars, natch. At the end of the week, the TVGuide link Pixi gave asks to vote for the best show all week. VM is currently 5th, behind Lost, Gilmore Girls, Gray’s Anatomy, and Arrested Devlopment. Most shows have no votes. www.tvguide.com/tv/watercooler/default.htmPimped it all over LJ VM communities right after you posted this, and we're already dominating with 42%! I knew if I sicced the lj fandom on them, it would be successful. We are quite powerful! BWAHAHAHAHAHA! Nothing gives me more joy than to see my little bitty show take the big behemoth Lost down a knock or too. Not that I have anything against the show. It just gets too much hype... So this makes me more happy than a stupid online poll probably should, but oh well... And wow! Excellent thoughts here! I haven't heard anyone else talk about this! The author of that book being mention, sooo not a coincidence. Oh, I love how intentional everything is on this show! Yes - fits very well with the "My Three Sons" mention, and the nihilism theme also fits well with the "dadaist" reference from Thomas' book Rats Saw God. Good work, KM.
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Post by KMInfinity on Nov 13, 2005 15:02:19 GMT -5
Ah thanks, Spring. That means a lot from you. : )
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Post by Michelle on Nov 13, 2005 16:29:30 GMT -5
I'm joining this discussion very, very late, but I'm the type to kind of mull things over for awhile before coming up with anything coherent. And, in my defense, I've only watched this episode two times, as opposed to my usual three viewings per VM episode. What? Me, obsessed? Pshaw. Anyway, I noticed this ep was rife with Veronica jumping to false conclusions. I'm not saying the conclusions she jumps to aren't understandable--they are. But she jumps nonetheless. - Gia asks her "What do you think about Dick?" and Veronica clearly thinks Gia is talking about something other than Ree-shard. Hee. - Veronica sees a man sitting in the hallway in front of the Mars Investigations office and her voice over indicates she believes he's a vagrant. It turns out to be Abel Koontz. - On the very vague description provided by the motel clerk, Veronica concludes that the guy with Amelia in the hotel room is her college boyfriend. We later find out her companion is the son of a diplomat whom she met in Ibiza. - When the girl she's communicating with on video mail tells her it's the guy next to Amelia in the photo, again Veronica concludes that she means the college b-friend. Only when she emails the photo to the hotel clerk does she find out the real answer. - And finally, when Veronica walks into Duncan's hotel room and sees a guy on the couch wearing Duncan's shirt, she concludes that it is Duncan. (This is one of the conclusions that I can completely understand her jumping to, but how fun that her last false conclusion brought her into Logan's arms??) I'm hoping this is a sign that Veronica is going to start to realize that she shouldn't take things at face value. She's a very smart girl, and a good detective, but she doesn't always look beyond the surface and that has been her mistake again and again in dealing with both Logan and Duncan. Someone on LJ actually made a table of all the times Veronica accused Logan of something for which he ultimately was found innocent. It was kind of amazing really. But this episode might be the catalyst for things to start to turn around. This episode makes me hopeful. I'm hopeful that Veronica will comes to Logan's assistance, and help him beat the Felix murder rap. I'm also hopeful that she will figure out that Duncan isn't the honest, normal boyfriend she would like to believe he is.
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Post by Linda on Nov 13, 2005 20:01:43 GMT -5
Hi All!
Wow! What an ep!
Eetah with everyone's raves and kudos.
Especial eeeeetah with the Cliff love. (In fact, I think zimshan was a little too restrained. ;D) The Cliff and Logan snark-fests are the scenes I've watched over again, just for the fun. I absolutely *loved* the way Cliff proved himself insult-proof by taking every insult and turning it into his own by acknowledging it and making it worse.
One other thing about Cliff and Logan: their final scene in the jail cell seemed to me to be Logan imprinting Cliff as a father-figure. 'Cause he's seen the ethically-challenged father-acting Cliff did for Veronica, just as he subsequently saw the morally-challenged father-acting Aaron did in his cell. And Cliff's advice was virtually the same as Aaron's. But Cliff was actually the one person in the entire episode telling Logan off strictly for his own good, with absolutely no agenda except to get out of being the defense attorney in a "marquee" murder case.
But the biggest difference between Cliff and Aaron, IMO, was that Cliff actually came through for Logan by delivering *more* than he promised instead of less. The biggest spark of hope that I saw for Logan in this dark episode was the fact that he preferred what Cliff offered over what Aaron offered.
Other than the above, and the extremely funny lines and acting, I thought this was a dark, dark, dark episode.
Seems to me that this one was all about the tragic consequences of well-intentioned lies. Just the dissonance of Abel Koontz (the ultimate liar for the protection of family) being showered with balloons and confetti -- brrrr.
And IMO, RT shows promise of being Joss-level evil. 'Cause the two relationships that actually allowed Veronica to survive last year, Wallace and Keith, are being torn apart. Last episode was her relationship with Wallace. This episode, her relationship with her dad was shaken. This was also the second episode where Keith's parenting skills comes under fire -- last time it was Alicia, this time it was Lamb. And guess what? Lamb hasn't even told Keith about Veronica's date-rape report. Just one more of Veronica's well-intentioned lies. (And, IIRC, the only season 1 major plot point not to be mentioned in this episode.) To me that's the biggest unexploded bomb in their relationship. It's the one thing that could make Keith believe that his relationship with his daughter has just been a lie he's been telling himself. It's really scary to contemplate.
And the damage to her relationships are due to things that she still seems to be doing. Her emails to Wallace seem to me to still be all about her and her concerns. And her lies to her dad are still happening, despite their discussion of the body at the beach -- she *had* to have heard the pain in Keith's voice.
I hope I'm wrong about where the relationships are headed.
Other random thoughts:
I'm thinking that it's plausible for Aaron to have had the Echolls house torched to conceal some sort of evidence. He's definitely working the angles of his trial, as indicated by his "if you don't believe me, why should a jury?" remark.
Oh, and one of Aaron's fatal flaws (aside from being a murdering violent cradle-robbing child-abusing cheating lying scumbag) is that he can't seem to just shut up. Despite his "I have nothing to say" meeting with Keith, he couldn't seem to stop talking in the face of Keith's silences. And it gave me a shiver to think that Keith's threat to Aaron regarding Veronica's safety would have particular impact when I thought about Aaron's version of "protecting" his daughter Trina. (Dang it, another Aaron-as-father parallel.)
Eetah about the major badness if Logan carries out the eviction of Weevil's grandmother. IMO, he would be stepping over a line that would be hard to come back from, even if he truly believes that the PCHers burned all of his possessions and mementoes of mom. I believe that he *wants* them to kick his ass, but hurting the innocent is the worst way to get them to do it.
Whoa about Clarence Wiedman. Eetah with Sue about him being bad for Veronica. I believe that her distress at his questioning style was real -- it was the snark afterwards that was a cover. But it's disturbing to think that her reaction to his chilling "Whatever happens in Vegas" remark isn't "Don't kill him or I'm calling the cops on you." ETA: On second thought, has Clarence actually killed anyone? He's good with the menace, but his MO seems to be more the cover-up variety. Huh.
Another funny / disturbing thing: Dick and Logan's reconciliation. "Dude! My stepmom?" Logan admitted wrong-doing, but then Dick (deliberately?) upped to ick-factor by retroactively ogling Logan's dead mom. (Did I mention that this episode was dark?) JD was wonderful conveying how not-OK that was.
Joss! Dude! (Yay, etc., but what about my Spike movie?)
The bus seemed awfully shiny for something that had been submerged for a couple of weeks. Ooogh about the duct-taped rats, though. (I'm actually grateful they weren't slimier -- the way they would probably have been in the water.)
Seems like the rats were connected to the smell which was the reason that everyone sat in the front. Except for Meg, who survived. So, the rats were there to ensure that everyone died?
Linda, late, but what an episode!
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Nov 13, 2005 20:23:44 GMT -5
Anybody else think Rat Saw God is an anagram? Dog Was Tar? At Graw DOA? As Draw Got? Award Togs? Star O'Wodg? Still speculating about anagrams? Here you go: click here
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Post by Pixi on Nov 14, 2005 8:09:46 GMT -5
Enbom again. As in the writer. Enbom got the fake IDs. Enbom one of the Boatloads of Fun families. Interesting. I hadn't remembered Enbom being one of the Boatloads of Fun families so I went back to check. Here's the list for future references, because I'm sure we'll need it: Billy and Mary Jo Patton, Larry and Nancy Crawford, Milt and Milly F-over, Fo, uh, Mike and Lill Wacker, Esther Pomroy, and there's one more, Walt and Bunny Day. But although Enbom wasn't one of those families, I was interested to see his name did appear in the 201 script. Look: FLASHBACK: VERONICA: Dick. Hey, Cassidy. CASSIDY: What's up, Veronica? LOGAN: Boys.
Dick opens the back of the Xterra.
DICK: Got the supplies. Enbom and Rams are gonna meet us at the Sac-N-Pac.
Cassidy and Dick start to load gasoline into the back of the Xterra.I'm finding this quite interesting. Enbom was one of the ones who helped them burn down the community pool. So he's involved in this class warfare deal. He's one of the ones who's got Logan's back. I wonder if we'll get to see him at all. Since he technically was in the pilot they might be apprehensive about bringing him back if they can't get the same actor. Wouldn't want it to screw around with the continuity score they've got going. But it'd be awesome if they could get him to make an appearance since he's been all over the script lately. And I'm going to just assume that it was his father that was the director of 'The Long Haul' and now he owns his own airlines. A nice career change. Thanks zimshan - I always make that mistake with Enbom. I think seeing him as a writer and the way he incorporates his name into the script always throws me. But what's funny is this is the second time I did this and Rae caught my mistake the first time. Um - duh pixi. Third time I think I should be punished severely. Hmm - I'm thinking handcuffs, Logan . .. . . . .
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Post by Lola m on Nov 14, 2005 11:51:25 GMT -5
Interesting theory about the house references. Plus, 'casablancas' - white house? I'm on the side that Weevil and gang didn't burn Logan's house down. Not just because I lurve the bad-boy with a soft spot for Veronica (and Lilly), but because it just seems too obvious. I'm not sure that it could have been Dick's doing, tho, but I don't think his comment to Logan about 'doing his stepmother' was all that innocent and light, even though that's the way he played it. Dick really does not like Veronica. One of the first pieces of dialogue in this episode came from the Mayor's daughter to Veronica.....'What do you think about Dick?' - besides the obvious 12-year old thought, I think that question could have been directed to the audience. Yes - I mean, are we supposed to forget that Dick encouraged Beaver to RAPE VERONICA?? I love the way the character is realized on the show, but as a person, I do not like Dick. Casablancas. He is not a nice guy. Not a nice guy at all. I've noticed that whenever a comment is made that goes way over the line of offensive, it's usually Dick that made it. It's like he actively works to make things . . . worse than they already are.
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Post by Lola m on Nov 14, 2005 11:54:37 GMT -5
What a helluvan episode! Random comments while reading the thread: I join you all in praising the multiple goodnesses in this episode, especially the writing, with the multiple layers and meanings; and the actors, especially Christopher B. Duncan as Clarence Weidman and Darran Norris as Cliff, since it’s supporting actors of this calibre that set the show apart. And Joss of course. And once again, HH. And the regulars, natch. At the end of the week, the TVGuide link Pixi gave asks to vote for the best show all week. VM is currently 5th, behind Lost, Gilmore Girls, Gray’s Anatomy, and Arrested Devlopment. Most shows have no votes. www.tvguide.com/tv/watercooler/default.htmI’m impressed with all of the spec and theories people are discussing. I especially like that maybe Weevil’s gang is undermining him and acting without his knowledge; that the real estate issues might be the key to the bus crash; and that Duncan has layers we haven’t seen. I hate Dick. I am hoping his stepmom kicks his ass six ways from Sunday, and maybe murders him at some point. In addition to Tolstoy, the other Russian Master mentioned by Aaron was Turgenev. Turgenev preceded Tolstoy and Dostoevsky. In fact, Turgenev is much more like Flaubert, imo, with a focus on real characters and detailed description. Turgenev’s most famous work: Fathers and Sons. It’s been a long time since I read it. It’s shorter than the other Russian behemoths, about 250 pages. This novel had, as major themes, an examination of how fathers and sons war, a focus on how class struggle influences history, and most especially the idea of nihilism as a philosophy. Turgenev didn’t invent the concept, but was the first writer to explore it. Who does this sound like? "A nihilist is a man who does not bow to any authorities, who does not take any principle on trust, no matter with what respect that principle is surrounded." (from Fathers and Sons, 1862)
Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. Fathers and Sons is available free here: etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/t/turgenev/ivan/t93f/index.htmlA good analysis of Fathers and Sons can be found here. eis.bris.ac.uk/~rurap/novelsof.htmThanks for the additional info on Turgenev, KMInfinity! How . . . fitting that Aaron is reading someone who's most famous work is titled Fathers and Sons.
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Post by Lola m on Nov 14, 2005 11:59:21 GMT -5
I'm joining this discussion very, very late, but I'm the type to kind of mull things over for awhile before coming up with anything coherent. And, in my defense, I've only watched this episode two times, as opposed to my usual three viewings per VM episode. What? Me, obsessed? Pshaw. Anyway, I noticed this ep was rife with Veronica jumping to false conclusions. I'm not saying the conclusions she jumps to aren't understandable--they are. But she jumps nonetheless. - Gia asks her "What do you think about Dick?" and Veronica clearly thinks Gia is talking about something other than Ree-shard. Hee. - Veronica sees a man sitting in the hallway in front of the Mars Investigations office and her voice over indicates she believes he's a vagrant. It turns out to be Abel Koontz. - On the very vague description provided by the motel clerk, Veronica concludes that the guy with Amelia in the hotel room is her college boyfriend. We later find out her companion is the son of a diplomat whom she met in Ibiza. - When the girl she's communicating with on video mail tells her it's the guy next to Amelia in the photo, again Veronica concludes that she means the college b-friend. Only when she emails the photo to the hotel clerk does she find out the real answer. - And finally, when Veronica walks into Duncan's hotel room and sees a guy on the couch wearing Duncan's shirt, she concludes that it is Duncan. (This is one of the conclusions that I can completely understand her jumping to, but how fun that her last false conclusion brought her into Logan's arms??) I'm hoping this is a sign that Veronica is going to start to realize that she shouldn't take things at face value. She's a very smart girl, and a good detective, but she doesn't always look beyond the surface and that has been her mistake again and again in dealing with both Logan and Duncan. Someone on LJ actually made a table of all the times Veronica accused Logan of something for which he ultimately was found innocent. It was kind of amazing really. But this episode might be the catalyst for things to start to turn around. This episode makes me hopeful. I'm hopeful that Veronica will comes to Logan's assistance, and help him beat the Felix murder rap. I'm also hopeful that she will figure out that Duncan isn't the honest, normal boyfriend she would like to believe he is. I love your list of instances where Veronica is mistaken. First, because this is one of the reasons I love this show. All the characters, even our main heroine, are complex and layered - not all good or bad, not all perfect or all imcompetant. Second, because I think you are right. All these examples are here to gives us hings about what's to come.
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Post by Lola m on Nov 14, 2005 12:15:16 GMT -5
Hi All! Wow! What an ep! Eetah with everyone's raves and kudos. Especial eeeeetah with the Cliff love. (In fact, I think zimshan was a little too restrained. ;D) The Cliff and Logan snark-fests are the scenes I've watched over again, just for the fun. I absolutely *loved* the way Cliff proved himself insult-proof by taking every insult and turning it into his own by acknowledging it and making it worse. One other thing about Cliff and Logan: their final scene in the jail cell seemed to me to be Logan imprinting Cliff as a father-figure. 'Cause he's seen the ethically-challenged father-acting Cliff did for Veronica, just as he subsequently saw the morally-challenged father-acting Aaron did in his cell. And Cliff's advice was virtually the same as Aaron's. But Cliff was actually the one person in the entire episode telling Logan off strictly for his own good, with absolutely no agenda except to get out of being the defense attorney in a "marquee" murder case. *bounce, bounce* Yes! Exactly! Very much so! Lots of ambiguous and downright wrong actions taken by everyone. Veronica buddying up with Clarence, not seeming to object all that much to his violent methods. The torching of Logan's home, likely by Weevil and the PCHer's. Logan's revenge purchase and eviction. The casual racism and hostility at school. And I get the feeling things are gonna get worse before they get any better. **nods** The scene with the two of them talking on the phone was very sobering. For Veronica and for the viewers. Keith is not taking this most recent holding back of info by Veronica well. Good point!!! I'm sure the police have his video tapes in their possesion and that they searched the house, but you know he had other hiding places for things. It's the movie star thing coming out, I think. He keeps thinking he can be . . . charming. And then this will all go away. Neither Keith nor Logan are gonna be "charmed". Although his attempts are so much more harmful to Logan, because they keep stirring those "dad really does love me in his own way" emotions up. Yup. Dick has a way of always pushing his language over anyone else's self-imposed limit. Yay, Linda, for all the shiny thoughts!
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Post by Pixi on Nov 14, 2005 13:57:36 GMT -5
Spring - I'm humbly bowing before my computer as I once again contemplate your greatness. And if I were standing in front of something relective - like those commercials were people are listening to IPODS and their reflection is dancing - you would see me jumping up and down yelling "This is why I'm Spring's Minion. This is why - she's so great!!"
You know - I've been blipping about all over LJ and various websites talking about this episode and I have never seen the reference to Art being a God. Nice catch and fascinating that Veronica sets up an art gallery. By jove - to paraphrase Henry Higgins - I think you've got something there. Neat!
I also loved the way you picked up on the twinness and especially this quote from Joss:
Because I particularly noticed those lines when I rewatched the episode on UPN yesterday and I think they are important. But I'm also now confused on what we are supposed to get from this twinness.
I loved the way you pulled out the names and places theme repetition that was playing throughout the episode. These are never things I pick up on my own.
I agree with all your conclusions and I too think Woody is behind the crash. I posted something about it way back in the thread but along with there being something up with Duncan, I firmly believe Woody has a role in everything else going on.
Aaron is a murderer and unrepentent and trying to fly a defense in front of Logan that he has rehearsed and seems fairly plausible (and hee, hee - he must have been talking to Rob since he is using Duncan- Rob's backup choice for Lilly's killer - as his defense).
Oh Spring #clap# - you are so original! I love this!
Great review - as always. We need a great review smiley that we can insert whenever you or Sue are writing. You are both quite a tagteam.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 14, 2005 15:24:15 GMT -5
Spring - I'm humbly bowing before my computer as I once again contemplate your greatness. And if I were standing in front of something relective - like those commercials were people are listening to IPODS and their reflection is dancing - you would see me jumping up and down yelling "This is why I'm Spring's Minion. This is why - she's so great!!" You're the best minion, ever! Thanks, Pixi. Something I don't mention in the review, that occurred to me later, is that I believe the ep title is deliberately obscure. Giving a work of art a title that is, or at least seems, entirely unrelated to its content is a very "dada" thing to do. It forces everyone to come up with their own answers - in other words, "it's all relative," and there is no objective reality. I think the twinness was again about juxtaposing the importance of a unique identity and individualism, against the idea that "it doesn't matter," we are all interchangeable (like Cliff not caring what kind of booze, as long as it's booze), and everything is relative to the observer. Yes, about Joss as "God" . . . I was just thinking that if the Rat mention really did mean to refer to that fairly well-known definition of art (as rat with a letter shifted), then Rob should have been in the episode, as God. But he wasn't. I was frowning and rethinking it all, when I suddenly realized that hey JOSS was in the episode - and all those twin references, and allusions to the idea that similar things are interchangeable and such . . . and of course, I am already predisposed to think of Joss as God-like - so I thought Joss was subbing for Rob, as the Creator - the way Cliff subbed for Veronica in keeping Keith company; the way $3 million subbed for Mike in keeping Amelia company; the way Logan momentarily subbed for Duncan on the couch; the way Mary-Kate subbed for Ashley (and vice versa) on Full House.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 14, 2005 15:30:08 GMT -5
I'm joining this discussion very, very late, but I'm the type to kind of mull things over for awhile before coming up with anything coherent. And, in my defense, I've only watched this episode two times, as opposed to my usual three viewings per VM episode. What? Me, obsessed? Pshaw. Anyway, I noticed this ep was rife with Veronica jumping to false conclusions. I'm not saying the conclusions she jumps to aren't understandable--they are. But she jumps nonetheless. - Gia asks her "What do you think about Dick?" and Veronica clearly thinks Gia is talking about something other than Ree-shard. Hee. - Veronica sees a man sitting in the hallway in front of the Mars Investigations office and her voice over indicates she believes he's a vagrant. It turns out to be Abel Koontz. - On the very vague description provided by the motel clerk, Veronica concludes that the guy with Amelia in the hotel room is her college boyfriend. We later find out her companion is the son of a diplomat whom she met in Ibiza. - When the girl she's communicating with on video mail tells her it's the guy next to Amelia in the photo, again Veronica concludes that she means the college b-friend. Only when she emails the photo to the hotel clerk does she find out the real answer. - And finally, when Veronica walks into Duncan's hotel room and sees a guy on the couch wearing Duncan's shirt, she concludes that it is Duncan. (This is one of the conclusions that I can completely understand her jumping to, but how fun that her last false conclusion brought her into Logan's arms??) I'm hoping this is a sign that Veronica is going to start to realize that she shouldn't take things at face value. She's a very smart girl, and a good detective, but she doesn't always look beyond the surface and that has been her mistake again and again in dealing with both Logan and Duncan. Someone on LJ actually made a table of all the times Veronica accused Logan of something for which he ultimately was found innocent. It was kind of amazing really. But this episode might be the catalyst for things to start to turn around. This episode makes me hopeful. I'm hopeful that Veronica will comes to Logan's assistance, and help him beat the Felix murder rap. I'm also hopeful that she will figure out that Duncan isn't the honest, normal boyfriend she would like to believe he is. Good catch, Fotada, about all the "mistakes" Veronica makes in the episode. The ep makes me hopeful as well, for Veronica's character growth, and this season! It's becoming a real potboiler.
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