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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 29, 2006 15:48:01 GMT -5
Initial reaction after watching this episode: Whoa!!! Wait. Whuh???
More later after rewatching and reading through the thread.
ETA: OK, I lied. I'm completely confuzzled.
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Post by rosslyn on Jan 29, 2006 16:25:07 GMT -5
"...he (Logan) could live in the basement of the high school"
BWAHAHA, SpringSummers!
"I actually thought Logan was a little flat this episode too and it's interesting that Rob told Logan not to put any subtext into his scenes in this episode - to play it straightforward. I think that was a huge mistake because the character of Logan is always played with subtext and that is what makes his character so interesting and layered."
Agreed. "Playing it straight" doesn't work well for the Logan character. When he plays it obviously angry, he's giving off subtle sad and fearful vibes and vice versa. The only thing I can take from Rob's instructions is that sometimes Logan - by adding a helluva lot of subtext - comes off more sympathetic than Rob may want him to. Rob seems to have a more negative view of the Logan character than much of the fan base.
Very entertaining ep, this one, but such a convoluted, soapy mini-arc shouldn't have been necessary to write off Duncan. Remember how easily his BtVS counterpart Riley was written off in "Into the Woods?" (I hope that Wallace's new mini-arc doesn't end up equally soapy).
Loved much about this ep, especially Lamb and Logan/Weevil capers. I agree with the poster upthread who bemoaned the misuse of CC. She could be doing so much more as Neptune's resident shady lady. I wouldn't mind seeing her hook up with Lamb. I regretted the lack of Logan/Duncan, as I always bought their friendship. I thought that Teddy had more chemistry with Jason than with anyone else. I want something to happen, i.e. a letter or a long-distance call to Logan, as he deserves to be remembered. Otherwise, he's going to wonder, "Why am I so easy to leave?" (Think Lynn, Veronica and now Duncan).
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Post by Michelle on Jan 29, 2006 17:05:56 GMT -5
Very entertaining ep, this one, but such a convoluted, soapy mini-arc shouldn't have been necessary to write off Duncan. Remember how easily his BtVS counterpart Riley was written off in "Into the Woods?" (I hope that Wallace's new mini-arc doesn't end up equally soapy). I completely agree that Duncan's departure was "soapy." The only thing I can hope is that somehow the baby kidnapping thing is connected, however remotely, to the bus crash mystery. Haa! That *would* be a great match up, but I seriously doubt Kendall would consider a small town sheriff a suitable prospect. That occurred to me as well. Once again, Logan is being ditched by the people he cares about. And I really think his relationship with Duncan meant something to him. But frankly, I have to wonder why Logan cares so much about Duncan after the strange way he's acted so far this season. I can only imagine that Logan is holding on to the way Duncan used to be, before Lilly was killed, and that being around Duncan reminds him of that idyllic time--before he found out his father screwed around with, then murdered his girlfriend. Maybe Logan and Veronica can cry on each other's shoulders? Hey, a girl can dream! A few shout-outs were mentioned already - the numbers on the fortune being the same as the ones from Lost, and the TWOP flyer. I found another possible shout-out in this episode, though it may too vague to be considered so. Vinnie Van Lowe drops a (wired) pen in Veronica's bag, which of course Veronica discovers. She reads the side of the pen: "Sugar's Cabaret Invitational Long Ball Championship" and tells Vinnie she's pretty sure it's his pen. Ken Marino, who plays Vinnie, is probably best known for appearing several years ago on the SNL-like show, The State. One of Marino's more well-known characters was Louie, a guy who liked to enthusiastically exclaim, "I want to dip my balls in it!" Also, a note to Sue & Spring: I would be more than happy to be a guest reviewer for VM, if the need arises. It looks like you have everything covered for the time being, but if anything changes, I'd love to take a stab at it.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 29, 2006 18:55:39 GMT -5
OK, questions (and maybe I'm just really slow... please be gentle):
What does "time to fake the doughnut" mean?
How did the baby get across the border?
Why throw the tape recorder away?
Also, the "you better" was repeated in the Veronica/Vinnie conversation and then the Veronica/Duncan situation.
2nd time watching, I'm still confuzzled.
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Post by zimshan on Jan 29, 2006 19:53:32 GMT -5
Some people have remarked it's telling us early on that things will be faked. But why on earth Logan would say something like that, I still don't understand.
Looks like we were supposed to believe that Vinnie and Astrid went down in the truck and acting as mother and father, got across the border with the baby. Astrid then proceeded to use Veronica's card at an ATM at some hotel and Lamb got word of the charge, driving to that exact place with Duncan in the trunk. With that, they were all reunited...
No friggin clue. Because now the FBI know that somehow Veronica was helping, since that whole phone call was staged. Some how it might be the mistake that bits them in them ass later
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Post by Queen E on Jan 29, 2006 20:10:05 GMT -5
OK, questions (and maybe I'm just really slow... please be gentle): What does "time to fake the doughnut" mean? How did the baby get across the border? Why throw the tape recorder away? Also, the "you better" was repeated in the Veronica/Vinnie conversation and then the Veronica/Duncan situation. 2nd time watching, I'm still confuzzled. Zim answered the rest, but I think that the "fake the doughnut" line was a slag on Duncan's ability to fully satisfy Veronica sexually.
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Post by Reetta on Jan 29, 2006 21:54:18 GMT -5
A (few) day(s) late, a dollar short. Or whatever it is that they say. Actually, that probably doesn’t work here, but give me a break, it’s 4.30 in the morning, I am not going to be making much sense anyway. I’m trying to be a bit more organized this time though, if that’s any consolation.
Haven’t yet had the time to read most of your reactions.
On first watching, I have to admit I was a bit miffed. Now I’m feeling fairly mellow. I didn’t NOT like the episode as much as I thought I perhaps would. All in all, I didn’t love it, I didn’t hate it. And I am excited to see the next episode.
Things I liked:
- All the little details that connected the episode to the previous episodes, the minor character cameos etc. Sean’s back. As much as I didn’t hate seeing Leo, I do think they did with much better job with Sean and the “he’s been there all along but we just haven’t seen him” than what they did in OAV where it almost felt like Leo was specifically brought in to fill a place in the script. You know what I’m saying?
- Keith…Keith. I love Keith so much in this episode. Seriously, I could have watched an entire episode just with him.
- The entire last scene with Keith and Veronica. The angst, the angst.
- (Some of) the Lamb scenes, more specifically the ones where he’s trying to impress the FBI agents. Adorably embarrassing.
Things that bothered me/Things I didn’t like:
- That Wallace and Logan were not in on the plan. Once again, Veronica keeps Wallace completely in the dark. Thinking that might be one of the reasons Wallace took off in the first place, one would think she’d actually learned something. As for Logan, I feel bad for him mostly on Duncan’s sake. I think the reason he is so surly in the elevator (“All the Italian ladies don’t grieve like this” and so on) is because he does not have any idea of what’s going on with Duncan while he’s sure that there is something going on.
- That they are calling the baby Lilly.
- The lines “She thinks you are Veronica”. I mean, please. As much as Veronica might be the mother figure in all of this, what about Meg? Does this really have to be all about Veronica?
- Well, the V/D scene at the end. Actually, I have sort of mixed feelings about the last five minutes. On first watching, the V/D felt a little soap operaish to me. Now, I can accept the scene in a “I am not going to see a very dear friend, one of the people who (used to) mean the most to me in the world, for a long time” kind of way because I can totally understand and relate to that and view her and Duncan as such. Mostly, it is probably the idea that Duncan is out there with a baby all on his own that I’m not so sure about. I don’t find that credible. Also, I’m a bit irked that we are never probably going to see any real friendship moments with Logan and Duncan anymore. Some of what I’m feeling might also be due to the fact that I feel that we never get to know what Duncan is exactly thinking. I wished we could have learned something more about Duncan. To me, it almost feels like Duncan gets to leave with not much of a conflict whatsoever – or even a reaction from anyone except Veronica. We never get to know what Duncan really thinks. Also, the last few frames of Duncan literally riding off into the sunset…that image, it’s okay I guess. It could have been much more unbearable. I kind of like how it is paired with the image of Veronica looking at a distance, at the sea (and on a side note, I loved all the outside shots in this episode. So pretty. I want to see more of the California scenery). On second watching, I might have even shed a few tears there at the end.
I suppose everyone’s been cataloguing the time when they started suspecting that something was off. The point where something in the reactions and/or the actions of the characters was so obviously over the top that it would never really have happened that way if you looked past the superficial. No, I didn’t have much of a reaction with Duncan and Veronica’s very public fake break up. Although on second watching, when I knew what to look for, there is definitely something in the facial expressions that could have given us subtle hints. But no, I think it was somewhere around the point when they mentioned the password: Meg Kane backwards or maybe somewhere in the middle of the Celeste scene. I do think Celeste was in on the plan, or at least some part of the plan, although there are a few things might prove me wrong: Vinnie saying “Better than your mother” when Duncan gives him $30,000 at the end and well, the fact that I can’t imagine a situation in which she would willingly let go off her son for a long time, even if she knew where he would be staying. Celeste’s voice sounds so cold in that scene at the police station, devoid of any emotion… that, and the lines “I find comfort in the fact that the child isn’t yours”… I thought that I’d never say this, but she sounds a bit too (and by that I mean uncharacteristically) immature and insensitive even for her. So, it wasn’t the most obvious things that gave it away. Anyway, this paragraph is already way longer than I intended so shutting up about that now. Other things/Things that made me go hmm:
- Why is Veronica breaking down, sputtering and crying her eyes out in private if the intention was to fool everyone else?
- I am deliberately disregarding the fortune cookie, because well, eh (that was pretty much the extent of my reaction).
- Logan and Weevil scenes. I expected a little bit more. They were a little so-so, but I suppose the things are really going to escalate in the next few episodes.
- Snow White, the Angel of Mercy? Also, lots of green colors in this episode; indicating purity, noble intentions, the prince and princess ideas? Mostly I just think green, pretty.
My reaction: swings both ways. I do want to see what happens in the next episode(s) and I am very much looking forward to them (which probably means that this episode holds its place as a set up). I’m more than willing to let go of this one though and move on to the next. It seems that everyone’s lives are getting screwed up, big time. And it’s not like they didn’t brought it on themselves. All of the characters have pretty much painted themselves in a corner now.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 29, 2006 22:17:11 GMT -5
A (few) day(s) late, a dollar short. Or whatever it is that they say. Actually, that probably doesn’t work here, but give me a break, it’s 4.30 in the morning, I am not going to be making much sense anyway. I’m trying to be a bit more organized this time though, if that’s any consolation. Haven’t yet had the time to read most of your reactions. On first watching, I have to admit I was a bit miffed. Now I’m feeling fairly mellow. I didn’t NOT like the episode as much as I thought I perhaps would. All in all, I didn’t love it, I didn’t hate it. And I am excited to see the next episode. Things I liked: - All the little details that connected the episode to the previous episodes, the minor character cameos etc. Sean’s back. As much as I didn’t hate seeing Leo, I do think they did with much better job with Sean and the “he’s been there all along but we just haven’t seen him” than what they did in OAV where it almost felt like Leo was specifically brought in to fill a place in the script. You know what I’m saying? - Keith…Keith. I love Keith so much in this episode. Seriously, I could have watched an entire episode just with him. He was absolutely outstanding! My feeling on this is that V &D are keeping the ones they love out of it, partly to protect their loved ones. It's a felony they are committing after all. Logan especially doesn't need that. I hated this too - I'm not sure why. I can understand this feeling; lots of people have expressed it . . . but having a kid depending on you is a huge motivator, and people can, have and do rise to such occasions. Duncan is hardly perfect, but he is very bright and capable and committed. He can do it. The theory here on this board (I think Rae & Pixi were the ones who theorized it ) is that Veronica is crying because she feels so badly about fooling her father. I hope so as well. I love Logan & Weevil scenes. Yep. I pretty much feel the same way. Thanks for sharing the interesting thoughts and impressions, Reetta. Also - did you notice the "S'cubiefest Date" thread on the main board? If you still plan to be in the US later this year, go take a look and vote on your preferences!
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 29, 2006 22:24:03 GMT -5
OK, questions (and maybe I'm just really slow... please be gentle): What does "time to fake the doughnut" mean? I think Erin is right that it's some kind of slang suggesting something about Kendall or Duncan, and the need to "fake." I think zimshan got this one on the nose. Maybe Duncan carelessly or accidentally threw it away - not really part of the plan? Though that is probably not right . . . let's see . . . uhm . . . it's part of making sure Lamb will be suspicious enough of Veronica to make that trip across the border? Interesting on the repeated "You better." I haven't rewatched it, and can't remember the V-to-V "You better" so . . . no theories, other than it suggests there is something similar going on in the conversations. I can say that I thought, "You better" was an interesting response for Veronica to give Duncan. It suggests she's well aware of how much slack she's given him.
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Post by Karen on Jan 29, 2006 23:42:40 GMT -5
OK, questions (and maybe I'm just really slow... please be gentle): What does "time to fake the doughnut" mean? How did the baby get across the border? Why throw the tape recorder away? Also, the "you better" was repeated in the Veronica/Vinnie conversation and then the Veronica/Duncan situation. 2nd time watching, I'm still confuzzled. Zim answered the rest, but I think that the "fake the doughnut" line was a slag on Duncan's ability to fully satisfy Veronica sexually. *nods* That's the way I read it.
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Post by zimshan on Jan 30, 2006 2:35:13 GMT -5
- That they are calling the baby Lilly. I hated this too - I'm not sure why. I was going to comment on this in my big post but seeing as how it probably will not get done. Yes, I'm in the camp that hating the Lilly naming. For one it was just too cutesy and cliche. But ultimately, it just feels completely false to me. Lilly was the one and only. Never to be replaced or remembered in another person. She was herself. Completely at once, her own individual. And if Veronica and Duncan believed one thing about Lilly, it would be that. Therefore I just can't buy it. I'm abit offend that the writers are asking me to. One of the girls on LJ wrote this little ficlet where Duncan in Mexico is visited by Ghost!Lilly who reminds him. 'Am I not unique, incredible, she after whom everyone else will pale in comparison always and forever?' Hehe. Then he wakes up and decides on switching the name. So I'm just going to chose to believe that happened for now.
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Post by Michelle on Jan 30, 2006 9:14:55 GMT -5
The theory here on this board (I think Rae & Pixi were the ones who theorized it ) is that Veronica is crying because she feels so badly about fooling her father. It also could be because she realizes that by helping Duncan go through with the kidnapping, she'll never be able to see him again. He is her boyfriend, and that would be understandably upsetting. Also, she knows that she's an accessory to a felony, and that must be pretty scary, even for a tough cookie like Veronica.
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Post by Michelle on Jan 30, 2006 9:24:11 GMT -5
Interesting on the repeated "You better." I haven't rewatched it, and can't remember the V-to-V "You better" so . . . no theories, other than it suggests there is something similar going on in the conversations. I can say that I thought, "You better" was an interesting response for Veronica to give Duncan. It suggests she's well aware of how much slack she's given him. Her "You better" grates my cheese. Better to say nothing at all in response to "I love you" than to make a flip remark. It reminds me of when she offered to help Duncan sneak into the hospital to see Meg, and when he tried to thank her, she brushed him off with, "I know, I'm a saint." As Spike would say, "Not bloody likely."
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 30, 2006 10:06:17 GMT -5
I hated this too - I'm not sure why. I was going to comment on this in my big post but seeing as how it probably will not get done. Yes, I'm in the camp that hating the Lilly naming. For one it was just too cutesy and cliche. But ultimately, it just feels completely false to me. Lilly was the one and only. Never to be replaced or remembered in another person. She was herself. Completely at once, her own individual. And if Veronica and Duncan believed one thing about Lilly, it would be that. Therefore I just can't buy it. I'm abit offend that the writers are asking me to. One of the girls on LJ wrote this little ficlet where Duncan in Mexico is visited by Ghost!Lilly who reminds him. 'Am I not unique, incredible, she after whom everyone else will pale in comparison always and forever?' Hehe. Then he wakes up and decides on switching the name. So I'm just going to chose to believe that happened for now. Yes - I can picture that kind of reaction from Lilly. Naming a child after a deceased sibling can stir up lots of different feelings in a family, from "That's wonderful; what a great honor and remembrance" to "Don't do that - it's too painful to have that kind of reminder" to the sort of "But there should be only one 'Lilly'!" kind of reaction you mention here. No doubt Duncan meant it as a way to honor and remember his sister, and he did it out of love - so I didn't hold it against him in any way. But it's just not my speed - I tend to fall more into the "it hurts too much," category. But if this happened in my family, I would hope to accept it in the spirit of honoring the deceased. Your comments make me wonder though, how Jake & Celeste would take it . . .
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 30, 2006 10:10:07 GMT -5
The theory here on this board (I think Rae & Pixi were the ones who theorized it ) is that Veronica is crying because she feels so badly about fooling her father. It also could be because she realizes that by helping Duncan go through with the kidnapping, she'll never be able to see him again. He is her boyfriend, and that would be understandably upsetting. Also, she knows that she's an accessory to a felony, and that must be pretty scary, even for a tough cookie like Veronica. Yes - those are also very significant ingredients you've added to the stew there, Fotada. Veronica had plenty of reasons to cry.
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