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Post by William the Bloody on Jan 30, 2006 10:30:24 GMT -5
It's been mentioned several times: "Why is Veronica crying in private wehn she is trying to fool her father about hte "breakup"?
I think the simple answer to this is that she was needing to fool her father AND she was thinking about hte fact that if the plan went successfully, she would not be seeing Duncan ever again. So, in a way, they were breaking up. Those thougths combined with her looking over the pictures of them together would surely make her upset. Veronica being the practical gal, also used this to make the "breakup" even that much more convincing.
Vlad
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Post by Sue on Jan 30, 2006 11:08:44 GMT -5
It's been mentioned several times: "Why is Veronica crying in private wehn she is trying to fool her father about hte "breakup"? I think the simple answer to this is that she was needing to fool her father AND she was thinking about hte fact that if the plan went successfully, she would not be seeing Duncan ever again. So, in a way, they were breaking up. Those thougths combined with her looking over the pictures of them together would surely make her upset. Veronica being the practical gal, also used this to make the "breakup" even that much more convincing. Vlad agree. And thanks to Rae, Erin and Fotada, who have all offered to help out with reviews if I continue to suffer sports-related pre-emptions.
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Post by Lola m on Jan 30, 2006 14:06:35 GMT -5
Initial reaction after watching this episode: Whoa!!! Wait. Whuh??? More later after rewatching and reading through the thread. ETA: OK, I lied. I'm completely confuzzled. It was a confuzzling ep.
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Post by Lola m on Jan 30, 2006 14:07:44 GMT -5
It's been mentioned several times: "Why is Veronica crying in private wehn she is trying to fool her father about hte "breakup"? I think the simple answer to this is that she was needing to fool her father AND she was thinking about hte fact that if the plan went successfully, she would not be seeing Duncan ever again. So, in a way, they were breaking up. Those thougths combined with her looking over the pictures of them together would surely make her upset. Veronica being the practical gal, also used this to make the "breakup" even that much more convincing. Vlad agree. And thanks to Rae, Erin and Fotada, who have all offered to help out with reviews if I continue to suffer sports-related pre-emptions. Adding my thanks and yayness to Rae for offering to step into the breach, and to Erin and Fotada as well!
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Post by Lola m on Jan 30, 2006 14:10:42 GMT -5
It's been mentioned several times: "Why is Veronica crying in private wehn she is trying to fool her father about hte "breakup"? I think the simple answer to this is that she was needing to fool her father AND she was thinking about hte fact that if the plan went successfully, she would not be seeing Duncan ever again. So, in a way, they were breaking up. Those thougths combined with her looking over the pictures of them together would surely make her upset. Veronica being the practical gal, also used this to make the "breakup" even that much more convincing. Vlad **nods** Add to this the sorta icky feeling in her tummy you know she had to have every time she thought about how she was fooling her dad, some fears about how this could all go wrong, and her own mixed feelings about Meg and the baby . . . Well. That's a lot to be going on emotionally.
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Post by Lola m on Jan 30, 2006 14:11:41 GMT -5
It also could be because she realizes that by helping Duncan go through with the kidnapping, she'll never be able to see him again. He is her boyfriend, and that would be understandably upsetting. Also, she knows that she's an accessory to a felony, and that must be pretty scary, even for a tough cookie like Veronica. Yes - those are also very significant ingredients you've added to the stew there, Fotada. Veronica had plenty of reasons to cry. **nods again** (This is what happens when I go thru the thread backwards . . . )
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Post by Lola m on Jan 30, 2006 14:15:44 GMT -5
Interesting on the repeated "You better." I haven't rewatched it, and can't remember the V-to-V "You better" so . . . no theories, other than it suggests there is something similar going on in the conversations. I can say that I thought, "You better" was an interesting response for Veronica to give Duncan. It suggests she's well aware of how much slack she's given him. Her "You better" grates my cheese. Better to say nothing at all in response to "I love you" than to make a flip remark. It reminds me of when she offered to help Duncan sneak into the hospital to see Meg, and when he tried to thank her, she brushed him off with, "I know, I'm a saint." As Spike would say, "Not bloody likely." Veronica frequently uses humour and flip remarks to cover up her feelings, though. And I'm guessing a lot of what she's covering up in these instances is anger and hurt over Duncan and Meg having a baby together. Not that it's a great response to have all the time. For example, following someone's declaration of love . . .
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Post by Lola m on Jan 30, 2006 14:16:33 GMT -5
Zim answered the rest, but I think that the "fake the doughnut" line was a slag on Duncan's ability to fully satisfy Veronica sexually. *nods* That's the way I read it. Adding my eetah.
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Post by Lola m on Jan 30, 2006 14:32:00 GMT -5
A (few) day(s) late, a dollar short. Or whatever it is that they say. Actually, that probably doesn’t work here, but give me a break, it’s 4.30 in the morning, I am not going to be making much sense anyway. I’m trying to be a bit more organized this time though, if that’s any consolation. Haven’t yet had the time to read most of your reactions. On first watching, I have to admit I was a bit miffed. Now I’m feeling fairly mellow. I didn’t NOT like the episode as much as I thought I perhaps would. All in all, I didn’t love it, I didn’t hate it. And I am excited to see the next episode. Things I liked: - All the little details that connected the episode to the previous episodes, the minor character cameos etc. Sean’s back. As much as I didn’t hate seeing Leo, I do think they did with much better job with Sean and the “he’s been there all along but we just haven’t seen him” than what they did in OAV where it almost felt like Leo was specifically brought in to fill a place in the script. You know what I’m saying? I think I do and I think I agree with you. I mean, it's logical that we simply would not have seen all the officers working at the station, or all the kids at the school, etc. Having a character simply be introduced as one who Veronica (and the audience) hasn't met yet is perfectly fine and actually less intrusive. **nods vigorously** The look on his face when he realises how Veronica has lied to him . . . ;D Loved every moment of the duel between Lamb and the FBI agents. Their put downs, the way he is sort of secretly proud to say that Veronica will fool them too, how easily they can make him look foolish and then how he also tricks them at the end even as he is being tricked. Just priceless! It seemed like a very Duncan-like ending for the character to me. His tendency to run and withdraw - the way he doesn't want to live his life the way his parents are trying to direct him toward but at the same time never wants to really confront them in a big way - etc. The baby is such a (oddly enough) simple solution, a simple relationship compared with so many of the others in his life. I can't really put my finger on when I figured out something was up. Like you, the argument didn't immediately trigger me - but the more the events unfurled, the more I kept looking back at the scene and being suspicious of it. So, it's like . . . . I guess it's like it was that scene that tipped me off, but only in conjuction with scenes that came after. I really really want to see an episode with more time devoted to unraveling Felix's murder - and more fun Logan and Weevil detectiving. But I'm not sure if we're gonna get a whole episode or if it will be sprinkled through a bunch of eps, which will tend to water it down somewhat. **nods very much about the last lines**
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Post by Michelle on Jan 30, 2006 16:41:41 GMT -5
I can't really put my finger on when I figured out something was up. Like you, the argument didn't immediately trigger me - but the more the events unfurled, the more I kept looking back at the scene and being suspicious of it. So, it's like . . . . I guess it's like it was that scene that tipped me off, but only in conjuction with scenes that came after. I was suspicious something was up from the beginning mainly because of the title "Donut Run," and some vague spoilers I'd come across. But I was completely bamboozled by who was in on it. While many people have speculated as to whether Kendall or Celeste or even Logan was in on the kidnapping plot, I've not read that anyone suspected Lamb as being in on the scheme. If the episode had aired almost as is, but minus the scene where he looks in the trunk of his car in surprise, I would have definitely assumed he was involved. When Veronica said something to him along the lines of, "Knowing what the Mannings are like, how can you not want the baby taken away from them?" my radar blipped. It had been established that he was willing to bend the law a little when it came to thwarting child abuse. And the final scene in "Nobody Puts..." of Lamb watching the Manning's house certainly illustrated that he didn't trust Meg's parents. Further, he seemed to really over-sell his desire to want to be in the FBI, almost as if he wanted Xena Warrior Princess to think he was a rube. Plus, the way he eagerly put his jacket on to head off to Big Bear seemed like another mislead to me, when all along he was sure Duncan was heading to Mexico. It was if he expected the FBI agents to say he couldn't go; he didn't put up much of a fight when he was denied, did he? And knowing they would go instead would leave an opening for him to be the only one available to head to Mexico when the ATM card was flagged. He could then get a message to Duncan that he was taking off so he could stow away in the trunk of his cruiser. That's a lot more plausible than Duncan somehow figuring out exactly when Lamb was leaving for Mexico to give him the opportunity to get to the sheriff's office before Lamb left. And more plausible than Duncan knowing how to break into the trunk of a police car. (Although I realize Veronica has a treasure trove of skeleton keys that might have helped that along). So. I don't really know why I'm posting this, since the episode did air with the scene at the end, and therefore totally blows my whole theory to pieces. But if anyone plans to re-watch the episode, maybe they could watch it with this theory in mind and consider whether it seems like a possible scenario. In my opinion, it would certainly have been a more satisfying scenario.
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Post by Sue on Jan 30, 2006 17:25:58 GMT -5
I can't really put my finger on when I figured out something was up. Like you, the argument didn't immediately trigger me - but the more the events unfurled, the more I kept looking back at the scene and being suspicious of it. So, it's like . . . . I guess it's like it was that scene that tipped me off, but only in conjuction with scenes that came after. I was suspicious something was up from the beginning mainly because of the title "Donut Run," and some vague spoilers I'd come across. But I was completely bamboozled by who was in on it. While many people have speculated as to whether Kendall or Celeste or even Logan was in on the kidnapping plot, I've not read that anyone suspected Lamb as being in on the scheme. If the episode had aired almost as is, but minus the scene where he looks in the trunk of his car in surprise, I would have definitely assumed he was involved. When Veronica said something to him along the lines of, "Knowing what the Mannings are like, how can you not want the baby taken away from them?" my radar blipped. It had been established that he was willing to bend the law a little when it came to thwarting child abuse. And the final scene in "Nobody Puts..." of Lamb watching the Manning's house certainly illustrated that he didn't trust Meg's parents. Further, he seemed to really over-sell his desire to want to be in the FBI, almost as if he wanted Xena Warrior Princess to think he was a rube. Plus, the way he eagerly put his jacket on to head off to Big Bear seemed like another mislead to me, when all along he was sure Duncan was heading to Mexico. It was if he expected the FBI agents to say he couldn't go; he didn't put up much of a fight when he was denied, did he? And knowing they would go instead would leave an opening for him to be the only one available to head to Mexico when the ATM card was flagged. He could then get a message to Duncan that he was taking off so he could stow away in the trunk of his cruiser. That's a lot more plausible than Duncan somehow figuring out exactly when Lamb was leaving for Mexico to give him the opportunity to get to the sheriff's office before Lamb left. And more plausible than Duncan knowing how to break into the trunk of a police car. (Although I realize Veronica has a treasure trove of skeleton keys that might have helped that along). So. I don't really know why I'm posting this, since the episode did air with the scene at the end, and therefore totally blows my whole theory to pieces. But if anyone plans to re-watch the episode, maybe they could watch it with this theory in mind and consider whether it seems like a possible scenario. In my opinion, it would certainly have been a more satisfying scenario. Wow, you make a great conspiracy theorist! I'm about to watch again (viewing 3) just to complete the fact-checking for my review and do the final editing, but I wouldn't buy it. I don't believe Lamb would ever conspire with Veronica over anything. I think it's all in the timing: Astrid had to play the tape in Big Bear, get back to Neptune, hook up with Vinnie, get the baby from Duncan and head off to Mexico (of course getting delayed by the roadblock searches.) I'm guessing that as soon as he turned over the baby Duncan immediately headed off to hide in the car (lots of water bottles and maybe food wrappers (I'll look). Then if Astrid was the one to use Veronica's ATM card once she got into Mexico (it seems like she and Vinnie put in several appearances that so witness could send Lamb on a wild goose chase) that would be a while later: Long enough to be sure the FBI had headed off to Big Bear, but short enough to lure Lamb south before they returned. Certainly there was luck involved. What if Lamb HAD gone to Big Bear with the FBI. Would one of the deputies gone to check out the Mexico thing? How would Duncan have known what car to hide in. Well, it IS fiction and I'm willing to go with some amount of suspension of disbelief to make the story work. (It's personal laziness. Instead of putting myself out to seriously fanwank small inconsistencies I just claim "willing suspension of disbelief" and sit back and enjoy. Sadly, I am really very easy to please.) As noted earlier on this thread it's really only horribly irritating when a character is required to act entirely out of character with no motivation. (I really don't have a problem with acting "out of character" because I don't expect the characters to be one-dimensional. There are plenty of people who can be laid back one day but some set of circumstances causes them to throw a fit the next. It's only when there is no reasonable explanation for unlikely behavior that it is irritating.) So, yeah, there was some luck involved but most Mission Impossible type capers are like that. I found this mostly believeable. I think you may be right, though, that RT may actually have been trying to do a mislead with regard to Lamb. I was just personally too dense to see it. Good on you for catching on.
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Post by rosslyn on Jan 30, 2006 22:59:38 GMT -5
"If the episode had aired almost as is, but minus the scene where he looks in the trunk of his car in surprise, I would have definitely assumed he was involved."
Although the kidnapping bugs me, as it's such a serious crime, weirdly enough I would have been more ok with it if Lamb had been willingly involved. (Maybe it's just because I'm such a silly Lamb fangirl). *g* Anyway, it would have been kinda cool if he had assisted the "conspirators" if only to piss off the FBI. (They majorly pissed me off in denigrating Lamb). But if we really wanted to buy into him being actually and knowlingly involved, we could always say, "Hey, he looked surprised and dismayed as Duncan wasn't supposed to get out of the truck until they reached Town X."
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Post by Lola m on Jan 31, 2006 8:30:34 GMT -5
I can't really put my finger on when I figured out something was up. Like you, the argument didn't immediately trigger me - but the more the events unfurled, the more I kept looking back at the scene and being suspicious of it. So, it's like . . . . I guess it's like it was that scene that tipped me off, but only in conjuction with scenes that came after. I was suspicious something was up from the beginning mainly because of the title "Donut Run," and some vague spoilers I'd come across. But I was completely bamboozled by who was in on it. While many people have speculated as to whether Kendall or Celeste or even Logan was in on the kidnapping plot, I've not read that anyone suspected Lamb as being in on the scheme. If the episode had aired almost as is, but minus the scene where he looks in the trunk of his car in surprise, I would have definitely assumed he was involved. When Veronica said something to him along the lines of, "Knowing what the Mannings are like, how can you not want the baby taken away from them?" my radar blipped. It had been established that he was willing to bend the law a little when it came to thwarting child abuse. And the final scene in "Nobody Puts..." of Lamb watching the Manning's house certainly illustrated that he didn't trust Meg's parents. Further, he seemed to really over-sell his desire to want to be in the FBI, almost as if he wanted Xena Warrior Princess to think he was a rube. Plus, the way he eagerly put his jacket on to head off to Big Bear seemed like another mislead to me, when all along he was sure Duncan was heading to Mexico. It was if he expected the FBI agents to say he couldn't go; he didn't put up much of a fight when he was denied, did he? And knowing they would go instead would leave an opening for him to be the only one available to head to Mexico when the ATM card was flagged. He could then get a message to Duncan that he was taking off so he could stow away in the trunk of his cruiser. That's a lot more plausible than Duncan somehow figuring out exactly when Lamb was leaving for Mexico to give him the opportunity to get to the sheriff's office before Lamb left. And more plausible than Duncan knowing how to break into the trunk of a police car. (Although I realize Veronica has a treasure trove of skeleton keys that might have helped that along). So. I don't really know why I'm posting this, since the episode did air with the scene at the end, and therefore totally blows my whole theory to pieces. But if anyone plans to re-watch the episode, maybe they could watch it with this theory in mind and consider whether it seems like a possible scenario. In my opinion, it would certainly have been a more satisfying scenario. This is really interesting, because I was also getting a "Lamb is in on it" vibe, until the trunk scene and even in the face of my knowing (as Sue points out) that Lamb would never do a deal like that with Veronica. I'm thinking, perhaps the episode had such a feel of "who's conning who" that it spilled over onto everyone.
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Post by Sue on Jan 31, 2006 8:53:06 GMT -5
It's done.
But I dumped it on Spring at 1 a.m. so not a very nice thing to do.
She says she'll try to get it posted at lunch, but really, it would have been so much easier had I gotten it to her over the weekend.
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Post by Michelle on Jan 31, 2006 9:28:25 GMT -5
This is really interesting, because I was also getting a "Lamb is in on it" vibe, until the trunk scene and even in the face of my knowing (as Sue points out) that Lamb would never do a deal like that with Veronica. I'm thinking, perhaps the episode had such a feel of "who's conning who" that it spilled over onto everyone. Agreeance: The whole "who is conning who"undertone made EVERYONE a suspect, and obviously brought out the conspiracy theorist in me. Heh. But as far as Lamb never making a deal with Veronica: I'm not so sure. In a way, he already conspired with Veronica and Duncan when he let them out of his cruiser in "Nobody Puts Baby..." If the Mannings had wanted to pursue breaking and entering charges, it would cause trouble for Lamb if Veronica or Duncan let it out that he released them from his custody. Basically, if anything worked in Lamb's favor, however shady, I think he'd consider it. But even with the misleads, it's apparent that Lamb had nothing to do with the kidnapping. That Rob Thomas: he's a crafty one!
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