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Post by Karen on Jan 31, 2006 23:12:30 GMT -5
A direct link for it is here: www.soulfulspike.com/vmars/VMep2-11.htmThough . . . you should be able to get to it by going to the S'cubie website www.soulfulspike.com - there's a link at the top of this posting board (the small banner with "S'cubie website, Board Rules, Smileys, Glamours&More.") Enjoy! Oh, thanks Spring! I don't know why I haven't been able to get to it through the actual page. Somehow, ever since 202, the rest of the links for all subsequent eps don't show up on my computer. I've been getting to them through Rae's links for months. Hehe. I've been having that problem myself, zimshan. I finally figured out that you need to right click on the page and selected the "This Frame" option, which give you the frame "Properties" at the bottom of the list. That's where you can find the url listed. Sneaky. Must be those new security options they put in place.
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Post by Linda on Jan 31, 2006 23:51:57 GMT -5
Hi Sue!!!#bid# Your review is a model of clarity! And very, very welcome after such a twisty grey episode. I love your connections and parallels. I wish I had more time to list *all* of the things that I loved, but I am posting this from work. I'll just have to summarize my reaction to your analysis by repeating: #bid# Linda, funnelcaked, but still appreciative of bright, shiny thoughts like Sue's (and everyone else's, for that matter.)
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Post by Lola m on Feb 1, 2006 8:11:14 GMT -5
If you haven't seen it already, cindywrites did a hilarious post over on LJ where Buffy, Spike, Willow, Giles, Xander, and Angel join in on the VM implosion about Donut Run. You can find it here. Read the comments. Guaranteed to laugh your ass off... ETA: Oh, damn. Sue's review is up and I can't get to it. Anyone want to post the link for it? **snerk** The comments kill me! ;D (Will comment on your review soon, Sue. I've printed it off to make notes and re-read and stuff. 'Cuz it's that good!! )
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Post by Sue on Feb 1, 2006 10:04:32 GMT -5
Kudos on your review, Sue! As Spring said, you really did outdo yourself. I liked your mini-synopsis of the episode, too. It's nice having a lot of the details spelled out in black and white for reference - especially considering my spotty memory and no time for rewatching. Absolutely agreed and loved your observation: I believe that the True Love Stories illustrated in this episode are really the ones between Veronica and Keith, and Duncan and Lilly. And I sincerely hope and believe that those will never end. What a great way to look at the fortune cookie meaning! True love stories - as love for a child is a prime example - never do end. I don't fault Duncan for taking the baby to Mexico (hopefully he didn't make a detour to the Island of the Lost - Hee!), and I agree with you when you say: I firmly believe Duncan himself wants to be gone from his parents. Who wouldn't? And now that he's off his medication - which I think that his parents used to control him, he has a chance to make his own way. It may be for the first time in his life that Duncan has found some purpose - a reason to truly live in the real world. Thank you for an awesome review! You rock the S'cubie house! Thanks, Karen. Yeah, I did the whole recap thing mainly just so I could sort out the action for myself. The review took me so long cause i was stuff on just recapping and understanding events. When I suddenly realized that Duncan and Keith were mirroring one another it was lightbulb moment. Keith wasn't always the mature, thoughtful guy he is now. I don't know that he would have kidnapped his own child but when he gets an idea in his head he can get pretty fixated on it even if it doesn't serve his (or Veronica's) immediate best interest. (Like pursuing the Lilly Kane murder.) Thanks for the kudos!
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Post by Sue on Feb 1, 2006 10:08:32 GMT -5
Hi Sue!!! Your review is a model of clarity! And very, very welcome after such a twisty grey episode. I love your connections and parallels. I wish I had more time to list *all* of the things that I loved, but I am posting this from work. I'll just have to summarize my reaction to your analysis by repeating: Linda, funnelcaked, but still appreciative of bright, shiny thoughts like Sue's (and everyone else's, for that matter.) Hi! Linda!Sorry about the funnelcaking. I'm honored that you could take time to read and comment. You always have some of the shiniest thoughts around!
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Post by Pixi on Feb 1, 2006 10:23:46 GMT -5
Sue I didn't envy you having to review Donut Run since I'm a huge, non-fan of the episode. But you did another great job. I don't agree with everything you posted but I loved the Truth, Lies, Grey areas section - good job!
And I also agree with you that
This is an excellent analogy of what a true love story is. I also found your insights about what parents will do for their children to be spot on. I have a hard time with Duncan being so parental, so suddenly but then Duncan's solution to his problems - to run away - is completely in keeping with his characters.
I do have to disagree on this being a perfect end to Duncan's arc. I feel his character was sadly misused this season. There was so much potential, unanswered questions, strange behavior that in the end was just covered up in white shining armour. I found the soap operaish comababy over the top and kind of unworthy of Rob. But, in the end, it's his show and his right to do as he wishes with it. Course - whether he has anyone watching, well - Donut Run had the lowest ratings of any episode this season and was beaten by reruns on the WB.
Still - great review Sue. I loved the parental insight and the references to the Hardy Boys.
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Post by rae flying by on Feb 1, 2006 11:01:19 GMT -5
Sue I didn't envy you having to review Donut Run since I'm a huge, non-fan of the episode. But you did another great job. I don't agree with everything you posted but I loved the Truth, Lies, Grey areas section - good job! And I also agree with you that This is an excellent analogy of what a true love story is. I also found your insights about what parents will do for their children to be spot on. I have a hard time with Duncan being so parental, so suddenly but then Duncan's solution to his problems - to run away - is completely in keeping with his characters. I do have to disagree on this being a perfect end to Duncan's arc. I feel his character was sadly misused this season. There was so much potential, unanswered questions, strange behavior that in the end was just covered up in white shining armour. I found the soap operaish comababy over the top and kind of unworthy of Rob. But, in the end, it's his show and his right to do as he wishes with it. Course - whether he has anyone watching, well - Donut Run had the lowest ratings of any episode this season and was beaten by reruns on the WB. Still - great review Sue. I loved the parental insight and the references to the Hardy Boys. To be fair to DR, this show was pre-empted by a lot of games throughout the US... I'm sure that didn't help the ratings. Sue: Loved the review. I haven't had the free time yet today but, once I do, I'll be back with better feedback than that.
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Post by Pixi on Feb 1, 2006 12:20:36 GMT -5
Sue I didn't envy you having to review Donut Run since I'm a huge, non-fan of the episode. But you did another great job. I don't agree with everything you posted but I loved the Truth, Lies, Grey areas section - good job! And I also agree with you that This is an excellent analogy of what a true love story is. I also found your insights about what parents will do for their children to be spot on. I have a hard time with Duncan being so parental, so suddenly but then Duncan's solution to his problems - to run away - is completely in keeping with his characters. I do have to disagree on this being a perfect end to Duncan's arc. I feel his character was sadly misused this season. There was so much potential, unanswered questions, strange behavior that in the end was just covered up in white shining armour. I found the soap operaish comababy over the top and kind of unworthy of Rob. But, in the end, it's his show and his right to do as he wishes with it. Course - whether he has anyone watching, well - Donut Run had the lowest ratings of any episode this season and was beaten by reruns on the WB. Still - great review Sue. I loved the parental insight and the references to the Hardy Boys. To be fair to DR, this show was pre-empted by a lot of games throughout the US... I'm sure that didn't help the ratings. Sue: Loved the review. I haven't had the free time yet today but, once I do, I'll be back with better feedback than that. That's true and the first episode back after a long break is going to suffer in ratings too. I guess I was coupling low ratings with a lot of general dissatisfaction on the boards but I didn't mean to sound dismissive. I too loved the review. You did a great job Sue but then you always do. I'm doing my humbly bow before greatness salaam.
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Post by Sue on Feb 1, 2006 12:34:56 GMT -5
Sue I didn't envy you having to review Donut Run since I'm a huge, non-fan of the episode. But you did another great job. I don't agree with everything you posted but I loved the Truth, Lies, Grey areas section - good job! And I also agree with you that This is an excellent analogy of what a true love story is. I also found your insights about what parents will do for their children to be spot on. I have a hard time with Duncan being so parental, so suddenly but then Duncan's solution to his problems - to run away - is completely in keeping with his characters. I do have to disagree on this being a perfect end to Duncan's arc. I feel his character was sadly misused this season. There was so much potential, unanswered questions, strange behavior that in the end was just covered up in white shining armour. I found the soap operaish comababy over the top and kind of unworthy of Rob. But, in the end, it's his show and his right to do as he wishes with it. Course - whether he has anyone watching, well - Donut Run had the lowest ratings of any episode this season and was beaten by reruns on the WB. Still - great review Sue. I loved the parental insight and the references to the Hardy Boys. Hey Pixi, thanks for the props, even though some of the ep disgruntled you. I actually meant to include in the section on "the writing Duncan off arc" that the writers had also attempted to prepare us for his parentalness via the "Animatronic Parental Lifestyle Simulator." Maybe it feels to you like that was out of the blue, but it did at least attempt to give some backstory support to his inclinations (and possibly abilities) toward fatherhood. The ep clearly showed him being way more "parental" than Veronica. I'm not sure I felt it was the perfect end to Duncan's arc, I simply felt it was quite a bit more unique than the average "disappeared off a boat in the middle of the ocean but no body is ever found until he turns up years later (sometimes in a totally different body) having suffered from amnesia" approach. I liked that it met the challenge of writing off a character (who, let's face it was not terribly popular with the majority of viewers and was quite possibly a real roadblock to Veronica's future development or relationships) head on, rather than taking the cheap and easy (see above) way out. Unrealistic maybe, but still, to my way of thinking more "real world-ish" than the soap opera scenario above. Teen pregancy, single fatherhood, really bad choices (committing a felony) --- to me are much more interesting choices than suddenly developing a split personality and being committed or any of those overworked soap opera ploys. I'll not try to claim it all made sense, just that I thought it was a bold and unusual move; and also that it didn't come totally out of the blue: looking back now I can find plenty of backstory to support such a development. Some I mentioned in my review regarding his parents, you mentioned the motif of running away being entirely in character. And, if Rob was trying to accomplish a scenario in which Veronica is separated but still tied to Duncan and still sees him as a knight in shining armor to be pined over (in stark contrast to Logan's nasty remarks) well, then he's accomplished it. It probably helps that I have very few preconceived notions, or even expectations, of what I'd like to see happen. So I'm pretty laid back about going for the ride. I'm guessing that Rob thinks he dealt with the whole Duncan situation very creatively. [And, if he ever decides to bring the character back --- in another body (i.e. a different actor) --- he's got the perfect excuse to explain extensive plastic surgery: Duncan was running from the law.
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Post by Sue on Feb 1, 2006 12:39:30 GMT -5
Sue I didn't envy you having to review Donut Run since I'm a huge, non-fan of the episode. But you did another great job. I don't agree with everything you posted but I loved the Truth, Lies, Grey areas section - good job! And I also agree with you that This is an excellent analogy of what a true love story is. I also found your insights about what parents will do for their children to be spot on. I have a hard time with Duncan being so parental, so suddenly but then Duncan's solution to his problems - to run away - is completely in keeping with his characters. I do have to disagree on this being a perfect end to Duncan's arc. I feel his character was sadly misused this season. There was so much potential, unanswered questions, strange behavior that in the end was just covered up in white shining armour. I found the soap operaish comababy over the top and kind of unworthy of Rob. But, in the end, it's his show and his right to do as he wishes with it. Course - whether he has anyone watching, well - Donut Run had the lowest ratings of any episode this season and was beaten by reruns on the WB. Still - great review Sue. I loved the parental insight and the references to the Hardy Boys. To be fair to DR, this show was pre-empted by a lot of games throughout the US... I'm sure that didn't help the ratings. Sue: Loved the review. I haven't had the free time yet today but, once I do, I'll be back with better feedback than that. Good point about the ratings Rae. What we really need are some figures on how many markets UPN usually reaches --- isn't something like on 88% of what the other stations get, to begin with with. And then how many were additionally pre-empted. (I mean Nashville has UPN and is fairly large Metro area but there will be no VM for at least the next two weeks.) Then the viewing numbers and I could do the math to see how many viewers could be actually expected if UPN were in ALL markets, with NO pre-emptions. That would be a much fairer comparison.
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Post by Michelle on Feb 1, 2006 13:33:15 GMT -5
Sue!! I am really, really impressed by your review. It has a clarity that frankly for me, the episode did not have. I am struck by the "I love you. I will always love you" line being shared by Keith & Duncan. I hadn't caught that, and I'm so glad you pointed it out. It makes a lot of sense, and I also think it sheds a little light on how Rob Thomas views Duncan as a character. That actually helps me feel a little bit more sympathy for some of Duncan's choices.
And I agree with you, the show will HAVE to address the aftermath of Veronica and Duncan's collusion. It will be interesting to see where RT plans to take us on this journey.
I did get the Ralph/Sam reference, and I thought it was pretty amusing. Ken Marino should be a semi-regular on the show. He's like a shot of espresso after a good meal.
I like the partnership between Logan & Weevil, but are we to assume that Logan didn't follow through on evicting Weevil's grandmother? I don't think Weevil would agree to work with Logan otherwise, but it would be nice if that was made clear.
Your hard work on this review is much appreciated!
You rock, Sue!! (Sorry, I was channeling JM for a second there.)
P.S. I am stupid: Can someone tell me what everyone voted for? I'm referring to the "I Voted!" image in the sig of many of S3 folks.
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Post by Sue on Feb 1, 2006 14:45:25 GMT -5
Sue!! I am really, really impressed by your review. It has a clarity that frankly for me, the episode did not have. I am struck by the "I love you. I will always love you" line being shared by Keith & Duncan. I hadn't caught that, and I'm so glad you pointed it out. It makes a lot of sense, and I also think it sheds a little light on how Rob Thomas views Duncan as a character. That actually helps me feel a little bit more sympathy for some of Duncan's choices. And I agree with you, the show will HAVE to address the aftermath of Veronica and Duncan's collusion. It will be interesting to see where RT plans to take us on this journey. I did get the Ralph/Sam reference, and I thought it was pretty amusing. Ken Marino should be a semi-regular on the show. He's like a shot of espresso after a good meal. I like the partnership between Logan & Weevil, but are we to assume that Logan didn't follow through on evicting Weevil's grandmother? I don't think Weevil would agree to work with Logan otherwise, but it would be nice if that was made clear. Your hard work on this review is much appreciated! You rock, Sue!! (Sorry, I was channeling JM for a second there.) P.S. I am stupid: Can someone tell me what everyone voted for? I'm referring to the "I Voted!" image in the sig of many of S3 folks. There's a thread on the main board discussing possible dates for a S'cubiefest III next summer. We are ranking possible dates. I'm not entirely sure if you have to be a "Master S'cubie" to vote. (you need 200 posts, but that's easy to do if you just come over to the main thread a couple of times and say "hi" back to everyone who talks to you. We've had people do it in less than a week and you're already almost half way there.) ======== Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I was SOOO pleased when I caught that and I'm SURE it was quite deliberate. Keith may think that Duncan should have made different, less drastic choices, but I doubt that he (Keith) sat down and reasonably considered his choices: "Hmm, if I back Veronica up in her part in this crime am I being a bad role model and enabling future bad behavior? Maybe I should allow her to suffer the consequences of her choices so she will make more mature choices in the future. I mean, we could probably hire a lawyer, plead temporary emotional insanity or some type of pyschological udress by Duncan. Point out that her mother is an alcohol who abandoned her, stole her money, she was almost murdered, she had 7 classmates die in the bus crash, Meg made a deathbed plea. If she cooperates we would probably get her off on probation......" Yeah, right. Nope Keith took immediate action, committed his own crime and protected Veronica. Total parallel. And, the more I thought about it the more I'm convinced that even the fortune really did point to the father/daughter love. (Altho, the LOST numbers? PLUS Logan answering, "where's Duncan" by saying "LOST", may signal that Duncan has gone off to some otherworldly, unreachable exile---but I may be reading too much into that.)
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Post by Sue on Feb 1, 2006 19:57:30 GMT -5
One more, since I can't post on this week's or next week's eps until Sat. (have I mentioned that enough?) and got the review done so late.
I know there was also some discussion of the disconnect between Logan being Duncan's best friend and yet having no part (or even clue) of what was going on vis a vis the kidniapping.
Thoughts:
1. Logan didn't really understand that there was a problem. My guess he thinks Duncan was incredibly careless to get Meg pregnant and it is a good thing that the Mannings want to take the baby off his hands.
2. Duncan deliberately doesn't want Logan involved. Maybe he is protecting Logan much as Veronica kept Keith and Wallace out of it. Besides Logan already has plenty of legal problems of his own. Finally, Duncan likely realizes that Logan would not be supportive and just doesn't need to hear another person give him grief.
3. Logan has the lead on who killed Felix and a chance to clear himself so it's understandable that he would have tunnel vision.
Surely once word got out about the kidnapping Logan replayed the Kendall/Veronica scene in his mind and reached his own conclusions about the staged "break-up." The best thing he could do was stay out of their way and not let on to anyone that he was purty durn sure that V was helping D.
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Now, as to whether the police would question Logan, that should probably have been addressed, however briefly. Even a one-liner from Lamb to the FBI (or vice-versa) about it being clear that "the Echolls kid" didn't know anything would have been appreciated.
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Post by Lola m on Feb 1, 2006 23:06:50 GMT -5
Sue!!!Wow! Wow! Wow! What an excellent review/analysis! The tale of two fathers was the key - all the parallels between Keith & Veronica and Duncan & Lilly Jr. Why didn't I see that? I mean, the matching lines ("I love you. I'll always love you."), the matching protective behavior. I already was convinced that the true love story was Veronica and Keith - father and daughter. In an episode about a father taking his daughter. You are so on target with this! I really should have spotted this, but I'm so glad you did and were able to show it to the rest of us. Really liked your description of Duncan's reasons for not turning to his parents. You paint a picture that feels very right about that as well as his reasons for naming the baby Lilly. It was a very nice touch to gather all the "additional" plots into one area, showcasing what they all have in common. Themes and threads that were created in previous eps and/or setting up arc for the future. Plus, I loved how you highlighted the overarching emotional theme of the show. and Guess we saw how that theme of trust and how it can be betrayed followed us into the next ep. The bullet points were wonderfully insightful and snarky. And I join all those who say "thank you thank you thank you" for the plotline summary. It really helped me straighten out several details that I kept mixing up in my head. What a complex episode! Whew!! I applaud you for the marvelous job you did, especially facing such a challenging storyline!
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Post by Sue on Feb 1, 2006 23:38:03 GMT -5
Sue!!!Wow! Wow! Wow! What an excellent review/analysis! The tale of two fathers was the key - all the parallels between Keith & Veronica and Duncan & Lilly Jr. Why didn't I see that? I mean, the matching lines ("I love you. I'll always love you."), the matching protective behavior. I already was convinced that the true love story was Veronica and Keith - father and daughter. In an episode about a father taking his daughter. You are so on target with this! I really should have spotted this, but I'm so glad you did and were able to show it to the rest of us. Really liked your description of Duncan's reasons for not turning to his parents. You paint a picture that feels very right about that as well as his reasons for naming the baby Lilly. It was a very nice touch to gather all the "additional" plots into one area, showcasing what they all have in common. Themes and threads that were created in previous eps and/or setting up arc for the future. Plus, I loved how you highlighted the overarching emotional theme of the show. and Guess we saw how that theme of trust and how it can be betrayed followed us into the next ep. The bullet points were wonderfully insightful and snarky. And I join all those who say "thank you thank you thank you" for the plotline summary. It really helped me straighten out several details that I kept mixing up in my head. What a complex episode! Whew!! I applaud you for the marvelous job you did, especially facing such a challenging storyline! Thank you Sweetie! I'm really impressed by how much people like the review. I wasn't that sure about it. Especially because I spent the first 2 viewings and 2 days of writing just reconstructing the recap, but that didn't feel like it really gave any insight into the episode. I get so excited when I see something that nobody else has really mentioned, or at least elaborated on. But I know I don't examine my "off" episodes nearly so carefully. Yes, if I haven't come up with the Duncan/Keith thing I probably would have focused more on the trust issues. But by late Monday night just didn't have it in me to do more than bullet points. But I'm glad people appreciated the recap at the end.
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