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Post by Pixi on Jan 26, 2006 9:34:42 GMT -5
Oh Lord. A TWoP shout out. Also: Hey! I was right! Congratulations Erin. I was spoiled for this one big time and I'm glad because there could have been serious damage to the TV if I wasn't. Things I liked: The boys - Cliff, Vinnie and of course Logan (you always come and Charisma's face - hee, hee) Keith. Loved him. Short list.
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Post by Pixi on Jan 26, 2006 9:36:35 GMT -5
Good Lordie, and how much do I LOVE that they brought SEAN back! So perfect! Fixing that Felix was with the Fitzs? I seriously don't buy it... Haha. I saw that there, Michael. Just a wee bit overacting there. And OH DAMN. SHOCKER TWIST! Nope, still drives me nuts. RT is indeed mean. Giving us what we want and then taking it away, just like that! And a Pulse trailer. Go KB! Oh, hey Shannon, it's the hit on her card that clues him in... so much for my idea of him knowing about the apartment next door. My sucky memory strikes again. Oh, also, earlier in the episode when she's by herself and her lip trembles like she's gonna cry? I got it this time, it's still viewer manip but I think it could legitmately be because she's tricking her father and he's being so nice and trusting right there so it's not Duncan she's tearing up over - it's what she's doing to Keith. Aww - thank you Rae. I did not get that so I am seriously happy to hear this because if not - hello, just practicing your acting or something? That makes sense.
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Post by Pixi on Jan 26, 2006 9:57:54 GMT -5
Here's what I posted in my LJ that pretty much summarizes my response to this episode:
Presenting (big dramatic musical flourish as the curtain rises)
"The Twagical Story of Twu Wuv Crossed Wuvers whoose Story Will Never, ever, ever End"
On Angel Cordelia and Wesley did a little dramatic replay of the story of Buffy and Angel for Fred that was hysterically funny. Now if we got Cassidy and Dick to re-enact the tale of Duncan and Veronica we would get:
Cassidy: Sweet Duncan, my first true love. You are so handsome and so virginal. You have saved yourself for me.
Dick: (Dude talk about sappy - who wrote this? Okay, okay) But the stars tore us apart - because doing your sister, just not cool. Now a stepmom - that would be different.
Cassidy: I missed you, I longed for you.
Dick: Me Not so much. I got a hot cheerleader, looked alot like you and then there was the whole meds and rage thing which I think I just kind of magically healed this year.
Cassidy: I had this mad impetuous fling with Logan.
Dick: Yea - what's up with all the macking you were doing?
Cassidy: But he was bad, bad, bad. So I dumped him after you stalked me oh so sweetly and lured me with cookies.
Dick: I sort of forgot to mention I knocked Meg up - but you know she was all comatized what with the crash and all.
Cassidy: I gave myself to you in a moment of sweet pure passion. We were in love till the fates tore us apart. And I will always love you - true heros do the right thing.
Dick: Yea, right. Off to find my next hot blonde. And you know - having a cute baby is a total chick magnet. But I will always love you. Always have, always will.
I liked Cliff, Vinnie,Keith and parts of Lamb's performance. Other than that - yawn!
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Post by Sue on Jan 26, 2006 10:47:28 GMT -5
Liked it.
(No, not ecstatic that Veronica will be pining for Duncan for some long, unspecified period. Still, I think it was a creative way to "write off" (somebody who has more facts please IM me with info about whether Teddy Dunn is seriously off the show or not---just curious) a character, but keep him available. Better than, "I have to leave you for your own good. Altho, the "we can never make love or I'll be too happy" really was awfully creative at the time as well. I mean, it beats the heck out of a staged accident with no body, or body burned beyond recognition... Besides which it means Veronica continues to know that he is alive so whenever she starts to date or fall for someone else there will always be that conflict.
My little Harlequin-heart hates that. (So very parallel to the Buffy/Angel dynamic which I'm sure someone has mentioned by now.) BUT I think it does well in context for the storytelling for the next year.
And, ya know, I really don't expect Veronica to totally follow Buffy's pattern. I'm going to hope that eventually she'll wake up one day and say "okay, enough is enough. It's been x years and I'm moving on. I'm not the same person. He's not the same person. There's not only one "Mr. Right" in all the universe. Oh look, there's Logan. He's the one who stayed around....."
Did I mention that I have a little Harlequin-heart?
I've not read the first 6 pages, but started here on page 7 so I see Pixi's remarks:
Question, Pix, how would you have liked/reviewed the ep if the scene with the kissing and declaring ever lasting love had been left out and we were allowed to assume that Duncan really had ridden off into the sunset and out of Veronica's life for good? And that she helped him primarily to fulfill her promise to Meg. (Oh, yeah, BTW, did that fulfill her promise? I thought Meg didn't want Duncan to have the baby?)
Did you really dislike the entire rest of the ep (outside of the things you mentioned) or was it primarily because of the VD? I thought the entire con was priceless; the pulling in of peripheral characters; the interactions, Lamb's character development (with the humiliation and all); etc was great.
==============
I'm going to assume that Jake and Celeste will want their son back eventually and will be willing to fight for custody of the baby in order to get Duncan as well. Really sorry Kyle Secor is on CiC, cause he would be so much more sympathetic than Celeste.
I'm going to hope that the Mannings eventually get nailed for abusing Grace. (I WILL be unhappy with RT if he leaves that plot point dangling with that child still in that house. Here is the real chance for Don Lamb to be a true hero.)
So---then you have the child's natural father (yes, he kidnapped her but certainly understandable given that he knew of Grace's treatment) with the entire Kane empire behind him suing for custody. The court wouldn't give her to the Mannings (assuming Grace has been removed from their custody) and nobody would think state or foster care would be superior to being with her father and the Kanes. It's a no brainer.
=================
Another question:
Was the entire Meg is pregnant storyline written to allow the separation of V and D thru these means? [Like Wallace has a different father storyline seems to have been written just to set up him going off to Chicago for several eps and getting in trouble there?] Or is there more to it?
Oops, I was only planning on dropping by briefly. JIm has chosen (of course, of course) to stay home this morning and fix a plumbing issues. So I've got to go get a few things done.
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Oh, like the ep. Haven't got a single clue as to what I'm going to write for a review. MUST rewatch.
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Post by raenstorm on Jan 26, 2006 11:01:04 GMT -5
For clarification purposes.
I was not insinuating that Logan SHOULD have known or been included in what was going on.
I'm saying that:
1. It is not logical to think that the FBI, investigating Duncan's disappearance, WOULD NOT interrogate the person sharing the same hotel suite as him. Sorry, that's just shitty investigation and I could believe it of Lamb but not the FBI. Not showing someone talking to Logan about it just because he "has enough going on" is poor reasoning. Especially since Logan doesn't exactly have an innocent reputation in this town - he's wearing an ankle bracelet, I don't think it's wrong of me to think that the FBI would be inherently suspicious of him and him possibly being involved. A throwaway mention, even, would have made it more believable.
2. Something felt off. It disappoints me that Duncan wouldn't ask for his best friend's help in this matter but it's not really all that surprising because, evidence shows, Duncan is not the best of friends. It also disappoints me that they set up Logan as the person to witness the cause of their breakup because it shows that V/D assumed Logan would spread the story. And, you know what? He did. Which feels completely out of character given what we've seen of Logan and his loyalty to his friends. Again, I could buy him tattling to Dick if this situation just involved Veronica... although, I can't really because he has Veronica investigating something for him and alienating her seems... hmm, odd, right now. But, Logan is an ass so I can see where he'd do it. It's the tattling on Duncan and spreading info about Duncan that doesn't feel right. Logan has never been shown to be anything but loyal to Duncan and to care about that friendship. I can't see him running to Dick with the info... or, certainly, I can't see him sharing the info with Dick until AFTER he knows Duncan and Veronica are over. So, yeah, once I had time to question why things felt off to me, I did wonder if Logan was involved purposely because he knows Dick is not complicated and that Dick, predictably, would be happy to spread the details around school. It's not like this episode is doing much to clarify who is involved and when, we get no Veronica VOs that refer to what's going on -- good I think for not giving away the twist but bad for helping us figure out the players.
I am not a Logan apologist nor do I think that Logan has to be in on every storyline. I have issues with Veronica and Duncan but my issues are not borne out of any V/L hopes. I legitmately think that Logan had a place in what went down... if not actually being involved, at least being suspected of being involved. Plus, there is that whole other thing where Duncan and Logan have been friends FOREVER and I liked that friendship and I hate that that wasn't even a factor in the plot.
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Post by raenstorm on Jan 26, 2006 11:09:24 GMT -5
Oh, hey Shannon, it's the hit on her card that clues him in... so much for my idea of him knowing about the apartment next door. My sucky memory strikes again. Oh, also, earlier in the episode when she's by herself and her lip trembles like she's gonna cry? I got it this time, it's still viewer manip but I think it could legitmately be because she's tricking her father and he's being so nice and trusting right there so it's not Duncan she's tearing up over - it's what she's doing to Keith. Aww - thank you Rae. I did not get that so I am seriously happy to hear this because if not - hello, just practicing your acting or something? That makes sense. Haha, well no need to thank me. Shannon and I had talked about it and how we felt those scenes were there to manipulate us so I was looking for it in this viewing. I still think she played the loud music all night to cover up the sounds of a newborn baby next door and I can see that she would be feeling bad about how she's lying to her dad in that scene so it could explain her quivering lip and sad expression.
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Post by Pixi on Jan 26, 2006 11:11:29 GMT -5
Liked it. Question, Pix, how would you have liked/reviewed the ep if the scene with the kissing and declaring ever lasting love had been left out and we were allowed to assume that Duncan really had ridden off into the sunset and out of Veronica's life for good? And that she helped him primarily to fulfill her promise to Meg. (Oh, yeah, BTW, did that fulfill her promise? I thought Meg didn't want Duncan to have the baby?) Did you really dislike the entire rest of the ep (outside of the things you mentioned) or was it primarily because of the VD? I thought the entire con was priceless; the pulling in of peripheral characters; the interactions, Lamb's character development (with the humiliation and all); etc was great. Honestly Sue - this is not based on the VD though I think Rob did a diservice to the character this year. I know from reading Rob's commentary that he intended Duncan to be a normal guy this year, conflicted, guilty but overall a good guy. Unfortunately, the character in Rob's mind and the character we saw on the screen was not portrayed that way. He did a lot of things that Veronica would have eviserated Logan over but she let slide. I get that this was her first love and thus gets some slack but Veronica lets everything slide, risks being convicted of a federal crime, alienates her father all for this? I thought the fakeout was a sad replay of Normal. Duncan's parents are billionaires. As the father - there is no one in hell he wouldn't have got custody of the baby through normal legal proceedings. This made no sense. So now he's going to live the rest of his life on the lam? Yes Veronica made a promise - but while I know Veronica often skirts the line, she lied to her father big time here and could have gone to jail all for this? There were other better ways to solve this ridiculous plot line. I thought the pace was draggy, the fight was obviously faked (even if I hadn't known would Veronica have a public fight like that? ) What was the point of the Kendall presence? They faked Kendall just so they could have a public fight? Made no sense. Honestly Sue - even without the twu luv hero's ride into the sunset, I would not have liked this.
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Post by Pixi on Jan 26, 2006 11:13:22 GMT -5
For clarification purposes. I was not insinuating that Logan SHOULD have known or been included in what was going on. I'm saying that: 1. It is not logical to think that the FBI, investigating Duncan's disappearance, WOULD NOT interrogate the person sharing the same hotel suite as him. Sorry, that's just shitty investigation and I could believe it of Lamb but not the FBI. Not showing someone talking to Logan about it just because he "has enough going on" is poor reasoning. Especially since Logan doesn't exactly have an innocent reputation in this town - he's wearing an ankle bracelet, I don't think it's wrong of me to think that the FBI would be inherently suspicious of him and him possibly being involved. A throwaway mention, even, would have made it more believable. 2. Something felt off. It disappoints me that Duncan wouldn't ask for his best friend's help in this matter but it's not really all that surprising because, evidence shows, Duncan is not the best of friends. It also disappoints me that they set up Logan as the person to witness the cause of their breakup because it shows that V/D assumed Logan would spread the story. And, you know what? He did. Which feels completely out of character given what we've seen of Logan and his loyalty to his friends. Again, I could buy him tattling to Dick if this situation just involved Veronica... although, I can't really because he has Veronica investigating something for him and alienating her seems... hmm, odd, right now. But, Logan is an ass so I can see where he'd do it. It's the tattling on Duncan and spreading info about Duncan that doesn't feel right. Logan has never been shown to be anything but loyal to Duncan and to care about that friendship. I can't see him running to Dick with the info... or, certainly, I can't see him sharing the info with Dick until AFTER he knows Duncan and Veronica are over. So, yeah, once I had time to question why things felt off to me, I did wonder if Logan was involved purposely because he knows Dick is not complicated and that Dick, predictably, would be happy to spread the details around school. It's not like this episode is doing much to clarify who is involved and when, we get no Veronica VOs that refer to what's going on -- good I think for not giving away the twist but bad for helping us figure out the players. I am not a Logan apologist nor do I think that Logan has to be in on every storyline. I have issues with Veronica and Duncan but my issues are not borne out of any V/L hopes. I legitmately think that Logan had a place in what went down... if not actually being involved, being suspected of being involved. Plus, there is that whole other thing where Duncan and Logan have been friends FOREVER and I liked that friendship and I hate that that wasn't even a factor in the plot. I so completely agree. I thought the stereotypical FBI's are arrogant idiots plot was boring also.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 26, 2006 11:26:08 GMT -5
For clarification purposes. I was not insinuating that Logan SHOULD have known or been included in what was going on. I'm saying that: 1. It is not logical to think that the FBI, investigating Duncan's disappearance, WOULD NOT interrogate the person sharing the same hotel suite as him. Sorry, that's just shitty investigation and I could believe it of Lamb but not the FBI. Not showing someone talking to Logan about it just because he "has enough going on" is poor reasoning. Especially since Logan doesn't exactly have an innocent reputation in this town - he's wearing an ankle bracelet, I don't think it's wrong of me to think that the FBI would be inherently suspicious of him and him possibly being involved. A throwaway mention, even, would have made it more believable. I kinda just assumed they (the authorities) did talk to Logan. Anyone involved (anyone "in the know") is put in major danger. As Keith said - kidnapping: Major crime. Long term prison possible - federal crime; felony. FBI!! You'd keep as many people you cared about out of it, as you could. Also, the plan was such that "the more people genuinely convinced V&D were on the outs, the less people in the know, the better." It was a "absolutely need to know" kinda plan. That was my overall take. So no Logan. No Wallace. No Keith. No Mac. No anyone that wasn't absolutely essential, even if they could have been of some help, even if you trusted them - minimize the danger to all, maximize success for the plan.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 26, 2006 11:31:09 GMT -5
For clarification purposes. I was not insinuating that Logan SHOULD have known or been included in what was going on. I'm saying that: 1. It is not logical to think that the FBI, investigating Duncan's disappearance, WOULD NOT interrogate the person sharing the same hotel suite as him. Sorry, that's just shitty investigation and I could believe it of Lamb but not the FBI. Not showing someone talking to Logan about it just because he "has enough going on" is poor reasoning. Especially since Logan doesn't exactly have an innocent reputation in this town - he's wearing an ankle bracelet, I don't think it's wrong of me to think that the FBI would be inherently suspicious of him and him possibly being involved. A throwaway mention, even, would have made it more believable. 2. Something felt off. It disappoints me that Duncan wouldn't ask for his best friend's help in this matter but it's not really all that surprising because, evidence shows, Duncan is not the best of friends. It also disappoints me that they set up Logan as the person to witness the cause of their breakup because it shows that V/D assumed Logan would spread the story. And, you know what? He did. Which feels completely out of character given what we've seen of Logan and his loyalty to his friends. Again, I could buy him tattling to Dick if this situation just involved Veronica... although, I can't really because he has Veronica investigating something for him and alienating her seems... hmm, odd, right now. But, Logan is an ass so I can see where he'd do it. It's the tattling on Duncan and spreading info about Duncan that doesn't feel right. Logan has never been shown to be anything but loyal to Duncan and to care about that friendship. I can't see him running to Dick with the info... or, certainly, I can't see him sharing the info with Dick until AFTER he knows Duncan and Veronica are over. So, yeah, once I had time to question why things felt off to me, I did wonder if Logan was involved purposely because he knows Dick is not complicated and that Dick, predictably, would be happy to spread the details around school. It's not like this episode is doing much to clarify who is involved and when, we get no Veronica VOs that refer to what's going on -- good I think for not giving away the twist but bad for helping us figure out the players. I am not a Logan apologist nor do I think that Logan has to be in on every storyline. I have issues with Veronica and Duncan but my issues are not borne out of any V/L hopes. I legitmately think that Logan had a place in what went down... if not actually being involved, being suspected of being involved. Plus, there is that whole other thing where Duncan and Logan have been friends FOREVER and I liked that friendship and I hate that that wasn't even a factor in the plot. I so completely agree. I thought the stereotypical FBI's are arrogant idiots plot was boring also. It wasn't one of my faves either - though my "eh" response is mostly around the "can barely keep it all straight" convulted nature of the storyline. Trying to keep Logan & Weevil's plans and motives straight, while trying to understand Veronica's & Duncan's plans & motives, while trying to figure out what Wallace was lying about and why . . . my head was ready to explode! My favorite parts were the Lamb/FBI parts, and it was fun to see Logan & Weevil interacting, and nice to have Wallace back. If I was analyzing this ep, the first thing I'd do is rewatch and try to get really straight in my head just who did what, and why, and how. I'd probably have to rewatch at least two times, because my head can only hold so much at once.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 26, 2006 11:33:48 GMT -5
Aww - thank you Rae. I did not get that so I am seriously happy to hear this because if not - hello, just practicing your acting or something? That makes sense. Haha, well no need to thank me. Shannon and I had talked about it and how we felt those scenes were there to manipulate us so I was looking for it in this viewing. I still think she played the loud music all night to cover up the sounds of a newborn baby next door and I can see that she would be feeling bad about how she's lying to her dad in that scene so it could explain her quivering lip and sad expression. Good 'splainy! I was wondering about that one. Makes sense.
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Post by raenstorm on Jan 26, 2006 11:37:58 GMT -5
I kinda just assumed they (the authorities) did talk to Logan. Anyone involved (anyone "in the know") is put in major danger. As Keith said - kidnapping: Major crime. Long term prison possible - federal crime; felony. FBI!! You'd keep as many people you cared about out of it, as you could. Also, the plan was such that "the more people genuinely convinced V&D were on the outs, the less people in the know, the better." It was a "absolutely need to know" kinda plan. That was my overall take. So no Logan. No Wallace. No Keith. No Mac. No anyone that wasn't absolutely essential, even if they could have been of some help, even if you trusted them - minimize the danger to all, maximize success for the plan. I can assume that the authorities talked to Logan too but it feels like we keep having to assume a lot of things this season. Plus, the assumption doesn't feel right because the scenes with Logan never give off the vibe that he's worried about Duncan. In the end, I'm just going to chalk it up to the fact that there is too much going on to show everything. Also, I do get what you're saying about them not involving people because of the risks. I even buy it, a little. It still doesn't explain why Logan is spreading tales about Veronica finding Kendall in Duncan's shower. (I know, I know, Logan is an ass. Thanks, Rob T., I GET IT.)
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 26, 2006 11:40:32 GMT -5
So - do we think Duncan is being "written off?" If this will truly follow the Buffy-Angel pattern, doesn't this mean a "Duncan" spin off? (Hee.)
My guess - truly a total guess, I am zero percent spoiled - is that Duncan will be back. But as with Buffy, this frees Veronica up to do some growing up and move away from the whole idealized HS thing.
About Lamb: You know, with his underlying empathy for abused kids, and with his irritation at being treated so badly by the FBI, I think he deliberately let the FBI go on wild goosechases that he was suspicious of . . . because he was suspicious of Veronica all the way through. He went after Duncan and baby-Faith, mostly because he wanted to show up the FBI. I wonder how much he'll really care after this.
Enrico!: He was super in this ep. His performance made up for a lot of things. He was soooo good in that scene telling Veronica about his hurt and disappointment. Just wonderful.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 26, 2006 11:45:25 GMT -5
I kinda just assumed they (the authorities) did talk to Logan. Anyone involved (anyone "in the know") is put in major danger. As Keith said - kidnapping: Major crime. Long term prison possible - federal crime; felony. FBI!! You'd keep as many people you cared about out of it, as you could. Also, the plan was such that "the more people genuinely convinced V&D were on the outs, the less people in the know, the better." It was a "absolutely need to know" kinda plan. That was my overall take. So no Logan. No Wallace. No Keith. No Mac. No anyone that wasn't absolutely essential, even if they could have been of some help, even if you trusted them - minimize the danger to all, maximize success for the plan. I can assume that the authorities talked to Logan too but it feels like we keep having to assume a lot of things this season. Plus, the assumption doesn't feel right because the scenes with Logan never give off the vibe that he's worried about Duncan. In the end, I'm just going to chalk it up to the fact that there is too much going on to show everything. Plot WAY too convulted, and too much going on. Oh! I kinda put that off to what I would imagine would be Logan's . . . subconscious inner glee, for lack of a better phrase . . . at the idea of trouble between V & D, expressing itself. I mean - I could imagine not being able to keep myself from saying a few things to friends, if I was in Logan's place. My ex, who I still have feelings for but who prances around acting like my roomie is wonderful and she and he are soooo great together, suddenly finds "Kendall in the shower." Yep. I am ashamed to admit I'd get a little inner glow off that one, and have to share a bit.
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Post by Queen E on Jan 26, 2006 11:50:50 GMT -5
I can assume that the authorities talked to Logan too but it feels like we keep having to assume a lot of things this season. Plus, the assumption doesn't feel right because the scenes with Logan never give off the vibe that he's worried about Duncan. In the end, I'm just going to chalk it up to the fact that there is too much going on to show everything. Plot WAY too convulted, and too much going on. Oh! I kinda put that off to what I would imagine would be Logan's . . . subconscious inner glee, for lack of a better phrase . . . at the idea of trouble between V & D, expressing itself. I mean - I could imagine not being able to keep myself from saying a few things to friends, if I was in Logan's place. My ex, who I still have feelings for but who prances around acting like my roomie is wonderful and she and he are soooo great together, suddenly finds "Kendall in the shower." Yep. I am ashamed to admit I'd get a little inner glow off that one, and have to share a bit. Hmm...it couldn't have been Kendell saying something to Dick, rather than Logan? I guess that's reaching.
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