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Post by Queen E on Apr 11, 2006 21:26:04 GMT -5
OK, and what about Larry the janitor? What was that about? So many questions!
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Post by Queen E on Apr 11, 2006 21:33:11 GMT -5
This is NOT one of my favorite episodes. Very creepy. I kept thinking that some of the "awake" scenes would end up being dreams and vice versa... I need to watch this one maybe three times in a row. It reminded me of "Restless" - kinda weird and disturbing yet intriguing, and so jammed with significance it makes your head hurt. The biggest question I have is how the title relates..so, the Rat saw God... who's the rat, and who's God? Veronica dismissed the phrase after she found the song title. Was she too quick to do so? (I admit, I'm a sucker for significant titles and can go way off track following non sequitar titles or red herring titles, or just plain mundane titles. Right there with ya; I've been trying to do a little google-fu to find the lyrics, but no dice. I don't think music is used accidentally at all.
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Post by Sue on Apr 11, 2006 21:42:07 GMT -5
Well, the land incorporation deal may have something to do with the mysteries but:
GAY, GAY, GAY, GAY.
It's apparently all about the GAY:
the two guys on the bus. Dick Sr.? Dick Jr. Cassidy? Woody? janitor Curly Moran
The life insurance thing is really weird. Since Dick Sr. is the one who sent the limo.
Woody told Gia not to take the bus. That's got to mean something. And he's clearly paid off Rhonda's family.
I love many of the teachers at Neptune: principal, Mr. Wu (how many of those egg drop contests have we taken part in?....); the English teacher. I'll be sorry to leave their next year.
I'll also be sorry if Veronica is forced to attend Hearst---if it's not her choice. So, she got into Stanford. Where else did she apply?
I'd love to see next season start during the summer---with Veronica working at Kane Enterprises and running into Clarence Weidmann and some industrial espionage plot.
Think Keith will get back with the guidance counselor? I guess Alicia is out of it, huh?
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Post by rae on Apr 11, 2006 21:58:20 GMT -5
Well, the land incorporation deal may have something to do with the mysteries but: GAY, GAY, GAY, GAY. It's apparently all about the GAY: the two guys on the bus. Dick Sr.? Dick Jr. Cassidy? Woody? janitor Curly Moran The life insurance thing is really weird. Since Dick Sr. is the one who sent the limo. Woody told Gia not to take the bus. That's got to mean something. And he's clearly paid off Rhonda's family.I love many of the teachers at Neptune: principal, Mr. Wu (how many of those egg drop contests have we taken part in?....); the English teacher. I'll be sorry to leave their next year. I'll also be sorry if Veronica is forced to attend Hearst---if it's not her choice. So, she got into Stanford. Where else did she apply? I'd love to see next season start during the summer---with Veronica working at Kane Enterprises and running into Clarence Weidmann and some industrial espionage plot. Think Keith will get back with the guidance counselor? I guess Alicia is out of it, huh? Oddly enough, tonight I realized that's probably one of the red herrings that can be explained by other things. Woody might have wanted Gia on the limo because that was where all the 09ers were going to be and he'd want her making connections with those kids given how he is probably aware he is about to try and incorporate. Plus, it's Dick Sr's limo so if he does have something going with the man, he'd want to encourage his daughter to be friend with the Casablancas boys. It doesn't really have to mean he knew anything about the bus itself... of course I still think he was involved with a cover up so it probably does mean something.
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Post by Rob on Apr 12, 2006 2:23:45 GMT -5
Lots of mysterious stuff. Apparently Veronica is getting imformation from the great beyond. Or is it just her own intuition speaking to her? One would hope; the occasional vaguely supernatural moment is ok (Lily's ghost, anyone?), but I'd rather it not play a large part in solving the mystery.
That said, the underwater bus was a cool effect. It was nice to see Meg again, though it makes me a little sad, too. I always liked Meg. Woody Goodman is gay. Could've arranged for the bus explosion out of fear of exposure from Peter...possibly hired Curly Moran, could be framing Terrance Cook. On the other hand, that would seem a bit too obvious. They're leaning on that more than I trust.
My inclination continues to involve Cassidy. Don't ask me how or why.
Best part of the episode - by FAR - was Wallace and Logan's interaction. They did a great job building all sorts of layers with just a few scenes of dialogue...and I love how easily Wallace saw through Logan's act after spending a little time. Wallace's great gift has always been his ability to see beyond the surface projection; he did it with Veronica, did it with Jackie...and, lo and behold, he's does it with Logan. Not that Logan's too thrilled about it...just like Veronica, he doesn't let down his guard easily or happily. Still, the way Wallace just laughs at Logan's attempt to brush off the real reason for working so hard on the project is perfect. Logan cares deeply for Veronica, and now Wallace has seen it with his own eyes.
As an aside, nice bit of acting by both. I've wanted to see Jason Dohring and Percy Daggs work together for at least a year, 'cause I thought their dynamic would be interesting. Their characters are completely different, yet they share deep feeling for Veronica. There's a lot that can be done between these two, and I hope there's a lot more to come. It was surely more interesting than watching Logan and Dick together.
For those of the LoVe persuasion, I'd say this episode stands as a very positive development. Veronica's expression when Wallace gently came to Logan's defense spoke volumes. She values Wallace's feelings and instincts (rightfully so)...and he just might have planted a seed by showing outward compassion.
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Post by artemis on Apr 12, 2006 5:34:59 GMT -5
Best part of the episode - by FAR - was Wallace and Logan's interaction. They did a great job building all sorts of layers with just a few scenes of dialogue...and I love how easily Wallace saw through Logan's act after spending a little time. Wallace's great gift has always been his ability to see beyond the surface projection; he did it with Veronica, did it with Jackie...and, lo and behold, he's does it with Logan. Not that Logan's too thrilled about it...just like Veronica, he doesn't let down his guard easily or happily. Still, the way Wallace just laughs at Logan's attempt to brush off the real reason for working so hard on the project is perfect. Logan cares deeply for Veronica, and now Wallace has seen it with his own eyes. As an aside, nice bit of acting by both. I've wanted to see Jason Dohring and Percy Daggs work together for at least a year, 'cause I thought their dynamic would be interesting. Their characters are completely different, yet they share deep feeling for Veronica. There's a lot that can be done between these two, and I hope there's a lot more to come. It was surely more interesting than watching Logan and Dick together. For those of the LoVe persuasion, I'd say this episode stands as a very positive development. Veronica's expression when Wallace gently came to Logan's defense spoke volumes. She values Wallace's feelings and instincts (rightfully so)...and he just might have planted a seed by showing outward compassion. i just wanted to quote this back because i totally agree with all of it. ;D i thought the difference between logan's interactions with dick and his interactions with wallace were so telling. one question is: does he hang out with dick because he feels like has (or actually has) no other friends, or does he do it because he wants to hide? maybe a little bit of both? i should have more to say about this episode after i have some coffee.
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Post by Pixi on Apr 12, 2006 7:33:12 GMT -5
Now that was an interesting episode. Huh. And wow. And what the? And you know - I liked it. It was different, it was risky, it was confusing, it was stuffed to the gills with clues, red herrings, a few goldfish but I liked it.
Gilmore Girls - which is usually fast, witty and adorable has been slowly deconstructing on the creator's idiotic plotline and tearing down of what makes the show work. I sat and watched GG and was all - yea, yea - is it time for VM yet? And I love GG! Sniff.
VM was what, what does that mean, oh look hot makeout-whew!, Wallace and Logan - yea!, Dick - whoa, look at Keith - hee -shutting Veronica in the closet, Mr. Wu - hey look - it's Disco bus and that's the end? Seriously - that's the end. Waaaa - is it Tuesday yet?
A very stylized episode that jumped all about, felt confusing and disorienting and yet for me I felt like I was Veronica, I'm tired and confused and don't have a clue what this all means. Very nicely done.
Loved the diss at Paris Hilton (hee, hee), the gentle knee bump leading to the makeout reminiscing between V and L, the slow build in Wallace and Logan's relationship leading to his defense of Logan and Veronica's what just happened face (hee - shout out to Steve Buscemi who I love), Keith finding Veronica in the closet - yes, that's mine (indeed!), the dead kids t-shirts, Mr. Wu, Dick the complete ass and his Brokeback mt. moment (hee)and did I mention the makeout? Not as hot as the dance of sizzling chemistry but still very nice.
So clues - what are they?
Big Dick took out an insurance policy on the boys. Whoever set off the bomb had to be able to see the bus (according to Cervando) Beaver keeps getting blamed for Dick's transgressions Bettina wanted a little Dick of her own (hee, I can't believe I just typed that, I am so 12) Dick picked up a bag from the stadium out of the trash and gave it to Bettina We should be asking why Peter is on the bus.
The minor mystery about the students scamming to get out of tests was sort of negligible but I adored Keith's endurance dating. Hee, hee.
Loved, loved, loved Veronica's squeal of glee when she was accepted at Stanford. Awwwww.
Still need to process more, I don't think this has changed my ideas about the solution to the bus crash. I applaud Rob for taking a chance with this episode. It didn't work on every level but it worked for me. I like my mysteries confusing and convoluted.
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Post by Pixi on Apr 12, 2006 7:37:50 GMT -5
Lots of mysterious stuff. Apparently Veronica is getting imformation from the great beyond. Or is it just her own intuition speaking to her? One would hope; the occasional vaguely supernatural moment is ok (Lily's ghost, anyone?), but I'd rather it not play a large part in solving the mystery. That said, the underwater bus was a cool effect. It was nice to see Meg again, though it makes me a little sad, too. I always liked Meg. Woody Goodman is gay. Could've arranged for the bus explosion out of fear of exposure from Peter...possibly hired Curly Moran, could be framing Terrance Cook. On the other hand, that would seem a bit too obvious. They're leaning on that more than I trust. My inclination continues to involve Cassidy. Don't ask me how or why. Best part of the episode - by FAR - was Wallace and Logan's interaction. They did a great job building all sorts of layers with just a few scenes of dialogue...and I love how easily Wallace saw through Logan's act after spending a little time. Wallace's great gift has always been his ability to see beyond the surface projection; he did it with Veronica, did it with Jackie...and, lo and behold, he's does it with Logan. Not that Logan's too thrilled about it...just like Veronica, he doesn't let down his guard easily or happily. Still, the way Wallace just laughs at Logan's attempt to brush off the real reason for working so hard on the project is perfect. Logan cares deeply for Veronica, and now Wallace has seen it with his own eyes. As an aside, nice bit of acting by both. I've wanted to see Jason Dohring and Percy Daggs work together for at least a year, 'cause I thought their dynamic would be interesting. Their characters are completely different, yet they share deep feeling for Veronica. There's a lot that can be done between these two, and I hope there's a lot more to come. It was surely more interesting than watching Logan and Dick together. For those of the LoVe persuasion, I'd say this episode stands as a very positive development. Veronica's expression when Wallace gently came to Logan's defense spoke volumes. She values Wallace's feelings and instincts (rightfully so)...and he just might have planted a seed by showing outward compassion. Rob- I so agree. I've been waiting for this forever too. I enjoyed the slow build between them - the foreplay line - squee - but I think your analysis is spot on. There is really nothing to add here but yes indeed.
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Post by raenstorm on Apr 12, 2006 8:35:05 GMT -5
Lots of mysterious stuff. Apparently Veronica is getting imformation from the great beyond. Or is it just her own intuition speaking to her? One would hope; the occasional vaguely supernatural moment is ok (Lily's ghost, anyone?), but I'd rather it not play a large part in solving the mystery. That said, the underwater bus was a cool effect. It was nice to see Meg again, though it makes me a little sad, too. I always liked Meg. Woody Goodman is gay. Could've arranged for the bus explosion out of fear of exposure from Peter...possibly hired Curly Moran, could be framing Terrance Cook. On the other hand, that would seem a bit too obvious. They're leaning on that more than I trust. My inclination continues to involve Cassidy. Don't ask me how or why. Best part of the episode - by FAR - was Wallace and Logan's interaction. They did a great job building all sorts of layers with just a few scenes of dialogue...and I love how easily Wallace saw through Logan's act after spending a little time. Wallace's great gift has always been his ability to see beyond the surface projection; he did it with Veronica, did it with Jackie...and, lo and behold, he's does it with Logan. Not that Logan's too thrilled about it...just like Veronica, he doesn't let down his guard easily or happily. Still, the way Wallace just laughs at Logan's attempt to brush off the real reason for working so hard on the project is perfect. Logan cares deeply for Veronica, and now Wallace has seen it with his own eyes. As an aside, nice bit of acting by both. I've wanted to see Jason Dohring and Percy Daggs work together for at least a year, 'cause I thought their dynamic would be interesting. Their characters are completely different, yet they share deep feeling for Veronica. There's a lot that can be done between these two, and I hope there's a lot more to come. It was surely more interesting than watching Logan and Dick together. For those of the LoVe persuasion, I'd say this episode stands as a very positive development. Veronica's expression when Wallace gently came to Logan's defense spoke volumes. She values Wallace's feelings and instincts (rightfully so)...and he just might have planted a seed by showing outward compassion. I don't think she got any information from the supernatural there. It's all information she already has in her head, she's just trying to put it together. #1 - LUCKY: She read about Lucky in Meg's emails. I'm guessing Meg was emailing with someone about her parents trying to set her up with the guy but them not knowing that he's not quite he pretends to be as he's the one who supplies the guys at school with beer, etc. Plus, Logan points out that Veronica actually met Lucky so it was probably some of her subconscious knowing that she should know "Lucky" but not quite remembering from where - that's why she asks Ms. James about him, trying to figure it out. #2 - PETER'S CRUSH: She obviously went back and read all of Peter's posts on SHIP once she found out he died on the bus. Peter telling her that she doesn't really know him from what he posted is, again, her own subconscious making that distinction. So, she knew about the crush and then goes after the files of the students later and from what's in them and other things that he's posted puts together the Mr. Wu connection. #3 - CERVANDO SUSPECTS WEEVIL: Again, the only thing she knows about Cervando is that he's a PCHer and that he picked on Beaver. The picking on Beaver was in the files and she's the one who knows Weevil was close to the bus when it went over that cliff. So, she's the one putting that connection together. I'm not sure but she doesn't seem to give it much thought because it really doesn't make much sense since she was with Weevil when he would have had to make the phone call. The good thing about this, in my opinion, was that she was working out the details of the phone and the bomb connection... that the bomb had to go off at an exact moment for the bus to actually go off the cliff. One of my original theories is that maybe it was never intended to kill the kids but to cause an accident and now that's a possibility again now that we've seen Veronica make the connection between when the bomb went off and where the bus was on the road. #4 - BETINA & DICK: Well, we know she learns that from the CD. I have some doubts that the freaking CD would have survived much less been playable but, then again, the rat survived (so to speak) too. She knows to go check for the CD because of her talk with Michelle right after she set up the "booth" in the hallway to earn money for the yearbook spreads. (Which, BTW, would have had to been in MONTHS AGO.) That's when she learns about the first message Michelle got from Rhonda. So, really, Veronica doesn't know anything about Betina until she hears that message and she goes searching for why she'd be able to hear Dick on the bus and knows he wasn't on it. Huh, I've only seen the episode two times so I'm forgetting what else she learns that was a little confusing to figure out where she learned it. Since I don't want this to come off in a bad way, I'm really just working through my own confusion on the episode by writing out the details on each thing. I think it's actually a nice bit of Veronica continuity since Veronica basically did the same thing last year in episode 17 (Kanes and Abel's) to try and work through the various suspects she had for Lilly's murder. This time around she's having to consider each of the victims and what she knows about them to try and figure who her suspects are... it proves that she's fairly consistent in how she processes things.
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Post by Pixi on Apr 12, 2006 8:49:06 GMT -5
Oh I agree Rae - very nicely explained and laid out. I agree with all your points. This was not a Sixth Sense type of episode but Veronica's mind trying to make sense of what she knows. I thought it was very nicely done - as you know I admire the disoriented feel of the episode.
And I agree - how that CD looked so pristine after the crash and the immersion - well I'll just let that one slide because it was important.
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Post by Rob on Apr 12, 2006 8:53:21 GMT -5
I don't think she got any information from the supernatural there. It's all information she already has in her head, she's just trying to put it together. I think it's actually a nice bit of Veronica continuity since Veronica basically did the same thing last year in episode 17 (Kanes and Abel's) to try and work through the various suspects she had for Lilly's murder. This time around she's having to consider each of the victims and what she knows about them to try and figure who her suspects are... it proves that she's fairly consistent in how she processes things. Your analysis makes perfect sense; it follows that an especially complicated puzzle would "haunt" her in such a way.
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Post by Michelle on Apr 12, 2006 12:31:52 GMT -5
I don't think she got any information from the supernatural there. It's all information she already has in her head, she's just trying to put it together. #4 - BETINA & DICK: Well, we know she learns that from the CD. I have some doubts that the freaking CD would have survived much less been playable but, then again, the rat survived (so to speak) too. She knows to go check for the CD because of her talk with Michelle right after she set up the "booth" in the hallway to earn money for the yearbook spreads. (Which, BTW, would have had to been in MONTHS AGO.) That's when she learns about the first message Michelle got from Rhonda. So, really, Veronica doesn't know anything about Betina until she hears that message and she goes searching for why she'd be able to hear Dick on the bus and knows he wasn't on it. Huh, I've only seen the episode two times so I'm forgetting what else she learns that was a little confusing to figure out where she learned it. Since I don't want this to come off in a bad way, I'm really just working through my own confusion on the episode by writing out the details on each thing. I think it's actually a nice bit of Veronica continuity since Veronica basically did the same thing last year in episode 17 (Kanes and Abel's) to try and work through the various suspects she had for Lilly's murder. This time around she's having to consider each of the victims and what she knows about them to try and figure who her suspects are... it proves that she's fairly consistent in how she processes things. Great breakdown of Veronica's "hauntings" and how she knew each piece of information. I was initially unsure whether the dreams were meant to be supernatural or not. Would the vision of Lilly running toward Weevil in "Normal is the Watchword" be considered supernatural? Excellent point about the bad timing of fundraising for the yearbook spread. Sometimes I think Rob Thomas needs to re-edit this entire season before it's released it on DVD. I just started looking at the TWOP posts, and one person said that they thought there were too many dream sequences. I am on the other side of that argument; I would have enjoyed it if there were *more* dream sequences. They were beautifully shot, and it was interesting to FINALLY meet everyone who died on the bus. I have always enjoyed dream sequences anyway--which is probably why I love David Lynch films so much. Erin mentioned Twin Peaks regarding the last episode, and I think that is a very appropriate reference--with the mystery, the noir feel, and now the dream scenes. I don't watch The Sopranos, but I understand the first few episodes this season played around with alternate reality like that too. I will be watching this episode at least once more. I smiled when I read that you had "only" watched it twice This episode packed in so many things and jumped around so much (as dreams do) that I had trouble following it all. My first assessment was that they could have cut the egg drop plot. While I love the fact that it finally showed Logan and Wallace working together and it was so nice that they seemed to make a connection, it dragged a little and otherwise seemed pointless. But then I thought of the eggs in their holders, falling from a great height, some surviving, and some not. Just like the kids on the bus falling over the cliff, with only Meg surviving. What is the analogy? I don't know. Maybe I'll figure it out on the re-watch, or maybe someone here can enlighten me. I enjoyed the scenes with Logan and Veronica. I see definite progress on both sides. The scene at the locker where Logan muses over why he and Veronica broke up strongly reminded me of Spike baiting Buffy: his "did you bruise the boy?" lines in Harsh Light of Day, "you have stupid hair" in No Place Like Home and the "not as high, not as firm" scene in Checkpoint. Maybe Rob has been watching his Buffy DVDs?
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Post by Sharky on Apr 12, 2006 13:54:12 GMT -5
Hmmmm. Love the show, but the complexity of the plot makes me see why it's never going to be a ratings bonanza. Nielsen families just aren't going to turn in droves to something that requires repeated watchings of episodes to understand. I don't want to see VM "dumbed-down" into "Happy Days Investigations", though. I'll take a short life with depth in the writing over the converse, any day.
I'm with Pixi, Rae, and others who view the dreams as Veronica's subconcious working on the puzzle using the pieces she knew. No revelations from on high, just her mind at work.
What was in the bag beside Veronica at the end? Were those supposed to be blocks of C-4?
I didn't mind the dream sequences in this episode, except for the "smearing" of the shots. I understand the effect they were going after, but I found it annoying. I prefer Joss' approach in Restless. Let the events of the dream identify it as such and don't try to get "trippy" with the visuals. Okay, a giant slo-mo cat or two I can forgive....
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Post by Sue on Apr 12, 2006 16:14:44 GMT -5
Perceptive thought from daughter regarding all of the gay issues:
Episode One was titled "NORMAL is the Watchword."
So, we were warned to be on the lookout for anything (anybody) who isn't "normal."
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Post by Sharky on Apr 12, 2006 16:42:30 GMT -5
Perceptive thought from daughter regarding all of the gay issues: Episode One was titled "NORMAL is the Watchword." So, we were warned to be on the lookout for anything (anybody) who isn't "normal." Or to be on the watch for anyone who is "Normal"? In Neptune, the latter would be easier.
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