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Post by Lola m on Apr 12, 2006 21:44:25 GMT -5
This is NOT one of my favorite episodes. Very creepy. I kept thinking that some of the "awake" scenes would end up being dreams and vice versa... I need to watch this one maybe three times in a row. It reminded me of "Restless" - kinda weird and disturbing yet intriguing, and so jammed with significance it makes your head hurt. The biggest question I have is how the title relates..so, the Rat saw God... who's the rat, and who's God? Veronica dismissed the phrase after she found the song title. Was she too quick to do so? (I admit, I'm a sucker for significant titles and can go way off track following non sequitar titles or red herring titles, or just plain mundane titles. Totally agree that this ep has lots of significance. Way lots!
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Post by Matthew on Apr 13, 2006 9:12:41 GMT -5
Oh I agree Rae - very nicely explained and laid out. I agree with all your points. This was not a Sixth Sense type of episode but Veronica's mind trying to make sense of what she knows. I thought it was very nicely done - as you know I admire the disoriented feel of the episode. And I agree - how that CD looked so pristine after the crash and the immersion - well I'll just let that one slide because it was important. No need to let it slide. It was protected from shock by the CD player's case: that may have also trapped an air bubble around it: CDs are also very resistant to water immersion, anyways. Pull the CD out of the player, clean it with windex, and, if necessary, run it through a CD polisher (a lot of used CD stores have them) and there ya go: playable. It's one of the reasons the CD format does so well: it's tough as all git-out.
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Post by raenstorm on Apr 13, 2006 11:16:25 GMT -5
Oh I agree Rae - very nicely explained and laid out. I agree with all your points. This was not a Sixth Sense type of episode but Veronica's mind trying to make sense of what she knows. I thought it was very nicely done - as you know I admire the disoriented feel of the episode. And I agree - how that CD looked so pristine after the crash and the immersion - well I'll just let that one slide because it was important. No need to let it slide. It was protected from shock by the CD player's case: that may have also trapped an air bubble around it: CDs are also very resistant to water immersion, anyways. Pull the CD out of the player, clean it with windex, and, if necessary, run it through a CD polisher (a lot of used CD stores have them) and there ya go: playable. It's one of the reasons the CD format does so well: it's tough as all git-out. Nope, I still have a problem with it. For one thing, she doesn't find it in the case. Veronica specifically tells her Dad it was in the CD player. While I sorta find it hard to believe that bus had a CD player but, if it did it'd at the front of the bus with the radio and that was the the part of the bus that took the most impact when it went over the cliff and into the water. A CD inside the CD player surviving that? Uhhh... ok I guess I should believe it since I'm already expected to believe Meg and baby survived. Now, I have serious issues with Meg and baby surviving but at least they were at the back of the bus and not taking the direct impact and also not made of plastic that would snap under that much instant pressure. But... let's say it does survives all of that intact. It still being there when V goes for it? Uh. Even with the sheriff's office doing a faulty investigation, I find it difficult to believe that they wouldn't have removed the CD themselves and put it in the evidence room. Especially since they went back to investigate the bomb stuff. If they didn't remove it, Veronica still would have had a hard time getting it out of the CD player and I'm not sure I can believe she did that without destroying/damaging it. Definitely a stretch no matter what pill I'm expected to swallow and takes some suspension of disbelief on my part to accept it. ETA: If Keith had found it when he investigated the bus, I'd be more likely to believe it because we know the Sheriff's Department was just letting the bus sit there. But, like I said, they've gone back to investigate it since learning about the bomb and that would take combing the whole bus... but, since Lamb himself is the one who announces that it went off near the driver, especially the front of the bus. ETA2: Came back because I was doing something else and realized you did say it was in the CD player's case but I still don't think any CD player that's on a bus would be sturdy enough to withstand the impact... ehh. And the second part of my argument still holds true. Plus, salt water would be rough on the CD... especially a cheap CDR.
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Post by Matthew on Apr 13, 2006 14:46:31 GMT -5
No need to let it slide. It was protected from shock by the CD player's case: that may have also trapped an air bubble around it: CDs are also very resistant to water immersion, anyways. Pull the CD out of the player, clean it with windex, and, if necessary, run it through a CD polisher (a lot of used CD stores have them) and there ya go: playable. It's one of the reasons the CD format does so well: it's tough as all git-out. Nope, I still have a problem with it. For one thing, she doesn't find it in the case. Veronica specifically tells her Dad it was in the CD player. While I sorta find it hard to believe that bus had a CD player but, if it did it'd at the front of the bus with the radio and that was the the part of the bus that took the most impact when it went over the cliff and into the water. A CD inside the CD player surviving that? Uhhh... ok I guess I should believe it since I'm already expected to believe Meg and baby survived. Now, I have serious issues with Meg and baby surviving but at least they were at the back of the bus and not taking the direct impact and also not made of plastic that would snap under that much instant pressure. But... let's say it does survives all of that intact. It still being there when V goes for it? Uh. Even with the sheriff's office doing a faulty investigation, I find it difficult to believe that they wouldn't have removed the CD themselves and put it in the evidence room. Especially since they went back to investigate the bomb stuff. If they didn't remove it, Veronica still would have had a hard time getting it out of the CD player and I'm not sure I can believe she did that without destroying/damaging it. Definitely a stretch no matter what pill I'm expected to swallow and takes some suspension of disbelief on my part to accept it. ETA: If Keith had found it when he investigated the bus, I'd be more likely to believe it because we know the Sheriff's Department was just letting the bus sit there. But, like I said, they've gone back to investigate it since learning about the bomb and that would take combing the whole bus... but, since Lamb himself is the one who announces that it went off near the driver, especially the front of the bus. ETA2: Came back because I was doing something else and realized you did say it was in the CD player's case but I still don't think any CD player that's on a bus would be sturdy enough to withstand the impact... ehh. And the second part of my argument still holds true. Plus, salt water would be rough on the CD... especially a cheap CDR. I was thinking a CD player like a walkman, with attached speakers of some sort. (which is what I find hardest to buy: usually you have walkmen with earphones, or boomboxes with speakers, no mid-size alternatives.). I don't see Ed as letting the students use the bus's cd player (if it had one) to play booty-call messages like that. I found it difficult to believe that Lamb's people didn't find it and bag it and tag it, myself: but the plastic of the cd itself should stand up to a couple of weeks in salt water: particularly if it's shielded from abrasion by the cd player itself. The data is all on a layer of dye against a reflective backing: this is sandwiched between a layer of polycarbonate plastic and a layer of acrylic: both of which are pretty much inert to salt water: salt-water aquaria constructed of lexan(polycarbonate) and acrylic are advertised all over the place. If it's a CD-R/W, the layers of acrylic and polycarbonate are thicker, as the writing medium is actually a metal that changes reflective properties at a certain temperature, rather than just a light-sensitive dye. The salt water could and would infiltrate the disk from the outer edges, oxidizing the aluminum or the dye layer, but depending on the manufacture, that could take a while: and the data is written from the center outward on a CD-R, so all those messages could be stored on there without being lost, even with the disk looking like an old mirror around the outside edges. My take on it, at least. I haven't seen anybody boasting about how well their cd-rs hold up under saltwater, but I find it plausible that the CD survived the crash, readable and whole. What I found unlikely was (quite like you) the idea that it, and the CD player (or laptop, or boombox) it was in would still BE on the bus after so many weeks of investigation. But this is Sheriff Lamb we are talking about..
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Post by Lola m on Apr 14, 2006 21:09:36 GMT -5
This is NOT one of my favorite episodes. Very creepy. I kept thinking that some of the "awake" scenes would end up being dreams and vice versa... I need to watch this one maybe three times in a row. It reminded me of "Restless" - kinda weird and disturbing yet intriguing, and so jammed with significance it makes your head hurt. The biggest question I have is how the title relates..so, the Rat saw God... who's the rat, and who's God? Veronica dismissed the phrase after she found the song title. Was she too quick to do so? (I admit, I'm a sucker for significant titles and can go way off track following non sequitar titles or red herring titles, or just plain mundane titles. Right there with ya; I've been trying to do a little google-fu to find the lyrics, but no dice. I don't think music is used accidentally at all. **nods** Music means something.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 14, 2006 21:12:45 GMT -5
Well, the land incorporation deal may have something to do with the mysteries but: GAY, GAY, GAY, GAY. It's apparently all about the GAY: Well, that's what I've been saying for years! ;D It is . . . confusing. And yet, are there too many things pointing to Woody now? So many that he's a red herring? This would be cool! I'm bummed by this, because I really liked Alicia. But, I guess it makes things less messy for Veronica and Wallace.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 14, 2006 21:17:05 GMT -5
Lots of mysterious stuff. Apparently Veronica is getting imformation from the great beyond. Or is it just her own intuition speaking to her? One would hope; the occasional vaguely supernatural moment is ok (Lily's ghost, anyone?), but I'd rather it not play a large part in solving the mystery. That said, the underwater bus was a cool effect. It was nice to see Meg again, though it makes me a little sad, too. I always liked Meg. Woody Goodman is gay. Could've arranged for the bus explosion out of fear of exposure from Peter...possibly hired Curly Moran, could be framing Terrance Cook. On the other hand, that would seem a bit too obvious. They're leaning on that more than I trust. I'm with you on that. Ooooh. More brainshare. Because I keep coming back to Cassidy as well. He keeps flipping back and forth in my mind. Is he some kind of victim? Is he somehow involved as a responsible party? **nods nods nods nods** The scenes between were wonderful, very subtle and yet also very clear. Most excellent acting by both. Felt very honest and true.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 14, 2006 21:20:27 GMT -5
Best part of the episode - by FAR - was Wallace and Logan's interaction. They did a great job building all sorts of layers with just a few scenes of dialogue...and I love how easily Wallace saw through Logan's act after spending a little time. Wallace's great gift has always been his ability to see beyond the surface projection; he did it with Veronica, did it with Jackie...and, lo and behold, he's does it with Logan. Not that Logan's too thrilled about it...just like Veronica, he doesn't let down his guard easily or happily. Still, the way Wallace just laughs at Logan's attempt to brush off the real reason for working so hard on the project is perfect. Logan cares deeply for Veronica, and now Wallace has seen it with his own eyes. As an aside, nice bit of acting by both. I've wanted to see Jason Dohring and Percy Daggs work together for at least a year, 'cause I thought their dynamic would be interesting. Their characters are completely different, yet they share deep feeling for Veronica. There's a lot that can be done between these two, and I hope there's a lot more to come. It was surely more interesting than watching Logan and Dick together. For those of the LoVe persuasion, I'd say this episode stands as a very positive development. Veronica's expression when Wallace gently came to Logan's defense spoke volumes. She values Wallace's feelings and instincts (rightfully so)...and he just might have planted a seed by showing outward compassion. i just wanted to quote this back because i totally agree with all of it. ;D i thought the difference between logan's interactions with dick and his interactions with wallace were so telling. one question is: does he hang out with dick because he feels like has (or actually has) no other friends, or does he do it because he wants to hide? maybe a little bit of both? I'd say a bit of both. I think they were making a deliberate comparison between Wallace and Dick by including a scene where Wallace also views a tabloid expose of Logan's family in front of Logan. The difference in emotion and reactions was very dramatic to me.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 14, 2006 21:24:44 GMT -5
Now that was an interesting episode. Huh. And wow. And what the? And you know - I liked it. It was different, it was risky, it was confusing, it was stuffed to the gills with clues, red herrings, a few goldfish but I liked it. Eetah. Love the style and the multiple possibilities and likely red herrings. Really brings the noir. ;D ;D Nice run down of clues. I don't think it changed my large-scale feelings about the way the major puzzle pieces of the bus crash fit together. But I keep tinkering with the fiddly bits of my solution.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 14, 2006 21:26:14 GMT -5
I don't think she got any information from the supernatural there. It's all information she already has in her head, she's just trying to put it together. I think it's actually a nice bit of Veronica continuity since Veronica basically did the same thing last year in episode 17 (Kanes and Abel's) to try and work through the various suspects she had for Lilly's murder. This time around she's having to consider each of the victims and what she knows about them to try and figure who her suspects are... it proves that she's fairly consistent in how she processes things. Your analysis makes perfect sense; it follows that an especially complicated puzzle would "haunt" her in such a way. #metoo#
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Post by Lola m on Apr 14, 2006 21:33:29 GMT -5
I don't think she got any information from the supernatural there. It's all information she already has in her head, she's just trying to put it together. #4 - BETINA & DICK: Well, we know she learns that from the CD. I have some doubts that the freaking CD would have survived much less been playable but, then again, the rat survived (so to speak) too. She knows to go check for the CD because of her talk with Michelle right after she set up the "booth" in the hallway to earn money for the yearbook spreads. (Which, BTW, would have had to been in MONTHS AGO.) That's when she learns about the first message Michelle got from Rhonda. So, really, Veronica doesn't know anything about Betina until she hears that message and she goes searching for why she'd be able to hear Dick on the bus and knows he wasn't on it. Huh, I've only seen the episode two times so I'm forgetting what else she learns that was a little confusing to figure out where she learned it. Since I don't want this to come off in a bad way, I'm really just working through my own confusion on the episode by writing out the details on each thing. I think it's actually a nice bit of Veronica continuity since Veronica basically did the same thing last year in episode 17 (Kanes and Abel's) to try and work through the various suspects she had for Lilly's murder. This time around she's having to consider each of the victims and what she knows about them to try and figure who her suspects are... it proves that she's fairly consistent in how she processes things. Great breakdown of Veronica's "hauntings" and how she knew each piece of information. I was initially unsure whether the dreams were meant to be supernatural or not. Would the vision of Lilly running toward Weevil in "Normal is the Watchword" be considered supernatural? Excellent point about the bad timing of fundraising for the yearbook spread. Sometimes I think Rob Thomas needs to re-edit this entire season before it's released it on DVD. I just started looking at the TWOP posts, and one person said that they thought there were too many dream sequences. I am on the other side of that argument; I would have enjoyed it if there were *more* dream sequences. They were beautifully shot, and it was interesting to FINALLY meet everyone who died on the bus. I have always enjoyed dream sequences anyway--which is probably why I love David Lynch films so much. Erin mentioned Twin Peaks regarding the last episode, and I think that is a very appropriate reference--with the mystery, the noir feel, and now the dream scenes. I don't watch The Sopranos, but I understand the first few episodes this season played around with alternate reality like that too. I like the dream sequences and so on. Like you, I really see them as part of the noir-ness, so to speak. I know I intend to re-watch it at least once again tomorrow. So much to think about! Oh what a wonderful insight! Plus, first we get a smaller drop in which the egg survives. And then a bigger drop in which it doesn't. Like the idea of the explosion not being enough to kill all the kids, it had to happen at the right moment to send the bus over the cliff . . . Gonna be dipping her pigtails in ink next, eh?
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Post by Lola m on Apr 14, 2006 21:52:55 GMT -5
Hmmmm. Love the show, but the complexity of the plot makes me see why it's never going to be a ratings bonanza. Nielsen families just aren't going to turn in droves to something that requires repeated watchings of episodes to understand. I don't want to see VM "dumbed-down" into "Happy Days Investigations", though. I'll take a short life with depth in the writing over the converse, any day. Call me a crazy idealist - I want both! Both, I tell you!! I wasn't completely sure myself - I'll be interested in other people's thoughts. ;D The smearing was only worrying to me on the first scene. But that's 'cuz I was afraid it was my cable or DVR acting up and when the first non-dream scene was clear I was fine.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 14, 2006 21:53:23 GMT -5
Perceptive thought from daughter regarding all of the gay issues: Episode One was titled "NORMAL is the Watchword." So, we were warned to be on the lookout for anything (anybody) who isn't "normal." Or to be on the watch for anyone who is "Normal"? In Neptune, the latter would be easier. Good one! ;D
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Post by Lola m on Apr 14, 2006 22:00:28 GMT -5
I am God. --> Rat Saw God. So who did the Rat see? #claps# Nicely put!! It's a running theme; the Echolls tabloid show fits in there too. That was such a lovely scene when she found out about getting in, wasn't it? I agree with, was it Pixi?, on how happy it made me to see Veronica that gleeful. Eeeeeep!! Don't say that! That was just too too perfect, wasn't it? ;D Excellent question. It's like the standard police question when a group of people are killed - what's the connection between the victims. I'm OK with a few "new" flashbacks, provided they don't use one to completely solve the mystery. Bring it in on the final ep and make it crucial, so you couldn't solve it without that info.
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Post by leftylady on Apr 15, 2006 10:52:19 GMT -5
Hmmmm. Love the show, but the complexity of the plot makes me see why it's never going to be a ratings bonanza. Nielsen families just aren't going to turn in droves to something that requires repeated watchings of episodes to understand. I don't want to see VM "dumbed-down" into "Happy Days Investigations", though. I'll take a short life with depth in the writing over the converse, any day. Call me a crazy idealist - I want both! Both, I tell you!! I wasn't completely sure myself - I'll be interested in other people's thoughts. ;D The smearing was only worrying to me on the first scene. But that's 'cuz I was afraid it was my cable or DVR acting up and when the first non-dream scene was clear I was fine. Me too on the wanting the show to challenge. Dumbing it down to get other viewers would make it cease to be appointment tv for me. "Charmed" may have run longer than "Angel" but at what price in quality. I wouldn't run out to buy Charmed dvds and watch and rewatch like I do for BtVS/Angel. The bag: Without rewatching I'm not sure if the bag you are referring to is the infamous bag that held the explosives that Terrence is being charged with, the one that we just learned that Dick trashpicked to put on the bus. I got on line to address that bag. Perhaps Rob wants us to finally focus on bag questions: 1. who packed the souvenir bag? 2. who was supposed to get the bag? 3. why was it in the trash? did the recipient not want it? did the donor have second thoughts? 4. did a 3rd party add the explosives? 5. what was the REAl purpose of the explosvives? 6. did someone realize that the bag got back on the bus and made a call - a warning that unfortunately triggered the explosion? Veronica thinks that the caller was following and purposely called at the worst time to ensure the bus went off the cliff. Right? or unfortunate timing from someone who was NOT there and only wanted to create an incident? if so, an incident to what purpose? Veronica was trying to "follow the money" but maybe we need to "follow the bag".
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