|
Post by Karen on Jan 13, 2006 23:43:05 GMT -5
Okay.. the Colonel (this is the XO?) is.... wow. "carries a penalty on this ship which is quite severe..." just lets it drift out there without emphasis... Cain! Woohoo!!!! She's just batshit. Best word for her. You've PUT a lot of them in bodybags yourself. "let our conscience get in the way, what happens?" We remain human? WOW!!!! AWESOME!!!!!!! Cain's ORDERING her to shoot her in the head!! That was surreal, wasn't it? Do you think she really did have a death wish? I know we're supposed to assume during that scene that Cain wasn't referring to any orders that Kara might have gotten from Adama, but she had to have an inkling that he would put forth the same order to assassinate her as she did him.
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Jan 14, 2006 0:17:27 GMT -5
Apollo is questioning the "why" of it, which makes sense. Part of the remaining human thing. So Apollo finds out it comes from the pres herself.. that shook him. I think Apollo has really lost his sense of self. He doesn't agree with his father's ideology, he lost his command to Kara, and now the president seems to have turned out to be not who he thought she was. Maybe Dee can help him find himself.
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Jan 14, 2006 0:21:07 GMT -5
Oooooh. Why do the Cylons hate us so much? Why does humanity deserve to survive? I love this show. That's the problem with going stealth. They can't see to hit you with a weapon, but they can miss seeing you and hit you my mistake. Oh, man. Talk about deja vu if Adama gets shot on the bridge again. And, do they really think even a bunch of marines is enough to take over the whole ship? Seems . . . overly optimistic to me. Apollo just floating . . . how beautiful and odd and scary and lonely and lovely. I had that same thought, especially after we saw Adama looking at his scar in the mirror and then his conversation with the Cylon who shot him - except it wasn't, was it? He really is a target.
|
|
|
Post by Matthew on Jan 14, 2006 4:49:58 GMT -5
Okay.. the Colonel (this is the XO?) is.... wow. "carries a penalty on this ship which is quite severe..." just lets it drift out there without emphasis... Cain! Woohoo!!!! She's just batshit. Best word for her. You've PUT a lot of them in bodybags yourself. "let our conscience get in the way, what happens?" We remain human? WOW!!!! AWESOME!!!!!!! Cain's ORDERING her to shoot her in the head!! That was surreal, wasn't it? Do you think she really did have a death wish? I know we're supposed to assume during that scene that Cain wasn't referring to any orders that Kara might have gotten from Adama, but she had to have an inkling that he would put forth the same order to assassinate her as she did him. You could see it in Cain's eyes: Kara sucks at "undercover." Cain knew what was on Starbuck's agenda, if not the moment she stepped into the room, then definitely after Adama gave the "stand down" speechlet.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jan 14, 2006 17:14:27 GMT -5
Okay.. the Colonel (this is the XO?) is.... wow. "carries a penalty on this ship which is quite severe..." just lets it drift out there without emphasis... Cain! Woohoo!!!! She's just batshit. Best word for her. You've PUT a lot of them in bodybags yourself. "let our conscience get in the way, what happens?" We remain human? WOW!!!! AWESOME!!!!!!! Cain's ORDERING her to shoot her in the head!! That was surreal, wasn't it? Do you think she really did have a death wish? I know we're supposed to assume during that scene that Cain wasn't referring to any orders that Kara might have gotten from Adama, but she had to have an inkling that he would put forth the same order to assassinate her as she did him. I think that's a good call - she wasn't dumb by any means. Cruel and a bit loony, but not dumb. If I have any quibble with the episode at all, really, it's that Cain was taken out so quickly and, relatively, simply. I mean, I know we'll still see repercussions from this eps events, but not as much as if either assassination had been attempted or had worked.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jan 14, 2006 17:15:26 GMT -5
Apollo is questioning the "why" of it, which makes sense. Part of the remaining human thing. So Apollo finds out it comes from the pres herself.. that shook him. I think Apollo has really lost his sense of self. He doesn't agree with his father's ideology, he lost his command to Kara, and now the president seems to have turned out to be not who he thought she was. Maybe Dee can help him find himself. I'm thinkin' Dualla might be good for him. Then again, she's not completely uncomplicated herself.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jan 14, 2006 17:19:31 GMT -5
Oooooh. Why do the Cylons hate us so much? Why does humanity deserve to survive? I love this show. That's the problem with going stealth. They can't see to hit you with a weapon, but they can miss seeing you and hit you my mistake. Oh, man. Talk about deja vu if Adama gets shot on the bridge again. And, do they really think even a bunch of marines is enough to take over the whole ship? Seems . . . overly optimistic to me. Apollo just floating . . . how beautiful and odd and scary and lonely and lovely. I had that same thought, especially after we saw Adama looking at his scar in the mirror and then his conversation with the Cylon who shot him - except it wasn't, was it? He really is a target. That's exactly what I was thinking! I think they were really leading us to compare this with the last attempt on his life. I also think that both of these things (him remembering his near death, the conversation with Boomer) are what led him to cancel his plans to have Cain killed.
|
|
|
Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 15, 2006 8:11:19 GMT -5
pretty episode: cgi, editing, music, pretty actors
harrassing the prisoners incident, probably taken from Real Life, no? I'm the opposite of an expert, but it does seem like the show is really going for realism as far as life in the military. illogic in the rapists logic has already been pointed out.
Baltar choosing real life Gina over fantasy 6, yay! finally can recognize the actress that plays Gina. good acting as these two different version, btw
don't remember Adama's speech in the mini-series, but I like that it got referenced Is the cylons plan to prove to the humans that they are worthy of surviving? Does this whole situation bring out the best in humans? A chance to start over?
Cain doesn't want conscience to get in the way? Yikes.
liked the 2 not-assassinations and Gina's not suicide. I need to rewatch a couple times before I understand all this. Sara had a good point above. But, what makes humans human? One of the key issues explored in sci-fi and why I love the genre.
Adama kissed Roslin, awwww...
Interesting ulogy Starbuck gave
|
|
|
Post by Rachael on Jan 15, 2006 11:49:27 GMT -5
Well, THAT was a better plan./
Except it wasn't a plan.
But it works out nicely. Cain's dead, the enemy killed her, and so there's no one (new) for her loyalists to get angry with.
|
|
|
Post by Shan on Jan 15, 2006 14:22:29 GMT -5
Man. You can kill someone doing that. Internal bleeding and all. Oooooh, officer really really mad. Of course, the question that the Pegasus folks really don't want to ask themselves is why they wanted to rape/have sex with a "machine" to begin with. Doubt they use that technique on the "regular" cylons. "If we let our conscience get in the way." A telling use of words. *nodding, nodding, and downloading some random, possibly only tangentially related thoughts* "You can't rape a machine." I thought...well, then...why bother with it at all? Because if they ARE "bothering with it" then it IS rape. And therefore the Cylons AREN'T just machines. And why bother with the other kinds of beating and torturing of the Cylons, the way humans do other humans, especially during wartime? Why flog and spit on "it" at all? Why not do like Roslyn did and just dump the "toaster" out the airlock, a quick, efficient disposal of a threat? Mind, Roslyn also tried to do the equivalent with Cain. And Kara again had doubts, as she did with the Cylon put out the airlock. Close contact with the "enemy" personalizes them, at least for anybody with enough (not necessarily human) empathy left to see it. *sigh* That's the thing with enemies and war, I suppose. Each side has to justify to themselves why they should live and the other should not, why it's acceptable to brutalize and dehumanize (de-personalize?) the other in order to emphasize that "otherness" necessary to maintain enmity. If the humans never questioned their right to live, and the Cylons were made by humans...why should the Cylons not be enough like humans to have been bequeathed the same flaws as their creators: the hubris, the arrogance, the desire for vengeance, the fear of "the other" and the religious intolerance? Throughout our history, how many of our wars have been fought with religion as the spur? Or...how many have NOT? And, of those, how many haven't USED religion as a focal point for the enmity of otherness? When will the humans see that if the Cylons have many of the same imperfections, they may very well have inherited many of the same assets and virtues? When the Cylons realize the same about humans? Maybe that's the more valid test (if a test is necessary at all) of who is the "better" creature: not the one who understands first WHY they themselves should deserve to live, but the one who EVER understands that the OTHER also deserves to live.
|
|
|
Post by Rachael on Jan 15, 2006 18:12:56 GMT -5
Man. You can kill someone doing that. Internal bleeding and all. Oooooh, officer really really mad. Of course, the question that the Pegasus folks really don't want to ask themselves is why they wanted to rape/have sex with a "machine" to begin with. Doubt they use that technique on the "regular" cylons. "If we let our conscience get in the way." A telling use of words. *nodding, nodding, and downloading some random, possibly only tangentially related thoughts* "You can't rape a machine." I thought...well, then...why bother with it at all? Because if they ARE "bothering with it" then it IS rape. And therefore the Cylons AREN'T just machines. And why bother with the other kinds of beating and torturing of the Cylons, the way humans do other humans, especially during wartime? . I agree with pretty much all of what I snipped, but wanted to address the above: The bother because they know (they think they know) that they Cylons are "programmed" to respond to torture in the same way as humans do...but it's not "real", probably, in their minds. So it's not really torture. The emotions are a simulation, produced by a complicated machine. Now, in my mind, if someone has emotions, regardless of how they're generated, that to them are indistinguishable from the ones *I* have, then it's torture, pure and simple. And horrible. It's about empathy, and either having none or being able to suppress it in order to get the job done. Humans are really good at suppressing their empathy. *shudder*
|
|
|
Post by Rachael on Jan 15, 2006 18:19:17 GMT -5
So. Onjel and I were talking, and I noted that finally causing us to relate to and feel empathy for Cain was a very Jossian thing to do. Onjel replied that while she'd been hoping for redemption, she didn't think Cain was ever going to deal with the Cylons as anything but machines to be destroyed--and that she thought Cain changed her mind because Adama is human, hadn't done anything wrong, and it wasn't politically smart. But, as I said to Onjel, I think Cain called off the kill order because she looked the moment in the eye... and she flinched. Because, after all, she was only human. It didn't work on me, the making me feel empathy for Cain. Too little, too late. Had she appeared human before the last few hours of her life, I might have bought it. Yeah, I'm a little cold-hearted when it comes to forgiving her sort. Or even caring enough to try and understand. It's that whole "shutting off empathy" thing I was just talking about.
|
|
|
Post by Rachael on Jan 15, 2006 18:37:18 GMT -5
And...notes from the biologist camp:
In the preview, I'm pretty sure that Baltar was drawing a hybrid DNA molecule. Well, actually, just the "base" part, not the sugar/phosphate part.
|
|
|
Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 15, 2006 22:48:54 GMT -5
Popped into my head today, the similarity of Cain's little speech to Kurtz in Apocalypse Now. Probably not surprising because both are about the effect of war on humanity.
Cain: Let me tell you something. I've had to watch a lot of kids be put into body bags. They're covered with flags and floated out that airlock. You think I don't understand his feelings towards his men? Sometimes terrible things have to be done. Inevitably, each and every one of us will have to face a moment where we have to commit that horrible sin. And if we flinch in that moment, if we hesitate for one second, if we let our conscience get in the way, you know what happens? There are more kids in those body bags. More kids floating out that airlock. Now I don't know why, but I have a lot of faith in you, and I want you to promise me that when that moment comes, you won't flinch. Do not flinch.
Kurtz: I've seen horrors... horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that... but you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies.
I remember when I was with Special Forces. Seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate the children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for Polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried. I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought:
My God... the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we. Because they could stand that these were not monsters. These were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us.
Also, "terminate with extreme prejudice."
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Jan 15, 2006 23:24:47 GMT -5
*nodding, nodding, and downloading some random, possibly only tangentially related thoughts* "You can't rape a machine." I thought...well, then...why bother with it at all? Because if they ARE "bothering with it" then it IS rape. And therefore the Cylons AREN'T just machines. And why bother with the other kinds of beating and torturing of the Cylons, the way humans do other humans, especially during wartime? . I agree with pretty much all of what I snipped, but wanted to address the above: The bother because they know (they think they know) that they Cylons are "programmed" to respond to torture in the same way as humans do...but it's not "real", probably, in their minds. So it's not really torture. The emotions are a simulation, produced by a complicated machine. Now, in my mind, if someone has emotions, regardless of how they're generated, that to them are indistinguishable from the ones *I* have, then it's torture, pure and simple. And horrible. It's about empathy, and either having none or being able to suppress it in order to get the job done. Humans are really good at suppressing their empathy. *shudder* Too true. And the more a person does it - surpresses their empathy, the more inhuman they become. I think that's what Adama finally realized when he changed his mind about killling Cain. It isn't enough to just survive - you have to be worthy of that survival. Also, in the end, it doesn't matter whether or not you can call it rape to sexually molest a machine or, on the other hand, call it love if you love a machine, but how doing it makes you feel and how it changes you. Look how those two Pegagus crew members were getting off on torturing Helo and Chief. The have totally lost their humanity from months of torturing a cylon. How about the cylons? Can their empathy for the humans change them enough to overcome their programming to destroy the human race?
|
|