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Post by Rachael on Jan 16, 2006 0:30:14 GMT -5
I agree with pretty much all of what I snipped, but wanted to address the above: The bother because they know (they think they know) that they Cylons are "programmed" to respond to torture in the same way as humans do...but it's not "real", probably, in their minds. So it's not really torture. The emotions are a simulation, produced by a complicated machine. Now, in my mind, if someone has emotions, regardless of how they're generated, that to them are indistinguishable from the ones *I* have, then it's torture, pure and simple. And horrible. It's about empathy, and either having none or being able to suppress it in order to get the job done. Humans are really good at suppressing their empathy. *shudder* Too true. And the more a person does it - surpresses their empathy, the more inhuman they become. I think that's what Adama finally realized when he changed his mind about killling Cain. It isn't enough to just survive - you have to be worthy of that survival. Also, in the end, it doesn't matter whether or not you can call it rape to sexually molest a machine or, on the other hand, call it love if you love a machine, but how doing it makes you feel and how it changes you. Look how those two Pegagus crew members were getting off on torturing Helo and Chief. The have totally lost their humanity from months of torturing a cylon. How about the cylons? Can their empathy for the humans change them enough to overcome their programming to destroy the human race? I think it's gonna be a little harder now that the humans have destroyed the Resurrection Ship. It's funny...I was just watching this week's "Charmed" (which, sans Leo, SUCKS), and the newbie witch was torturing a demon for information...and I realized that this happens all the time on Charmed. And it's okay, because...demons aren't human. Doesn't apparently matter if they hurt and have feelings. In fact, it only works BECAUSE of those things.
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Post by Onjel not logged on Jan 16, 2006 8:45:30 GMT -5
Too true. And the more a person does it - surpresses their empathy, the more inhuman they become. I think that's what Adama finally realized when he changed his mind about killling Cain. It isn't enough to just survive - you have to be worthy of that survival. Also, in the end, it doesn't matter whether or not you can call it rape to sexually molest a machine or, on the other hand, call it love if you love a machine, but how doing it makes you feel and how it changes you. Look how those two Pegagus crew members were getting off on torturing Helo and Chief. The have totally lost their humanity from months of torturing a cylon. How about the cylons? Can their empathy for the humans change them enough to overcome their programming to destroy the human race? I think it's gonna be a little harder now that the humans have destroyed the Resurrection Ship. It's funny...I was just watching this week's "Charmed" (which, sans Leo, SUCKS), and the newbie witch was torturing a demon for information...and I realized that this happens all the time on Charmed. And it's okay, because...demons aren't human. Doesn't apparently matter if they hurt and have feelings. In fact, it only works BECAUSE of those things. Which takes me back to S4 of BtVS. Buffy's approach to dealing with demons was to get in, do her job and get a clean kill. She was not one with the torture and experimentation, which is why what the Initiative was doing was so antithetical to her beliefs. She could engage in war against the demon population, if they posed a threat to human beings, but drew the line at torture and at killing those that did not pose a threat, e.g. Clem. The only demons Buffy would eliminate were those without "souls" (there's a whole other discussion of whether or not demon "souls" are souls at all, blah blah blah, which I don't want to open up here) and who made it their life's work to eliminate human beings. I can't recall a time when Buffy actually tortured a demon for information or just to break them. Maybe someone else can remember differently, and let me know. In all, engaging in torture, whether of what you perceive to be an inhuman thing or a human being, dehumanizes the torturer as much, if not more than the "torturee" (new word ).
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Post by Karen on Jan 16, 2006 14:22:49 GMT -5
Too true. And the more a person does it - surpresses their empathy, the more inhuman they become. I think that's what Adama finally realized when he changed his mind about killling Cain. It isn't enough to just survive - you have to be worthy of that survival. Also, in the end, it doesn't matter whether or not you can call it rape to sexually molest a machine or, on the other hand, call it love if you love a machine, but how doing it makes you feel and how it changes you. Look how those two Pegagus crew members were getting off on torturing Helo and Chief. The have totally lost their humanity from months of torturing a cylon. How about the cylons? Can their empathy for the humans change them enough to overcome their programming to destroy the human race? I think it's gonna be a little harder now that the humans have destroyed the Resurrection Ship. It's funny...I was just watching this week's "Charmed" (which, sans Leo, SUCKS), and the newbie witch was torturing a demon for information...and I realized that this happens all the time on Charmed. And it's okay, because...demons aren't human. Doesn't apparently matter if they hurt and have feelings. In fact, it only works BECAUSE of those things.I agree - but it works only when the demons aren't personalized. Once they are (as in Clem, Angel, Spike, Anya), then all bets are off.
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Post by Karen on Jan 16, 2006 14:29:53 GMT -5
I think it's gonna be a little harder now that the humans have destroyed the Resurrection Ship. It's funny...I was just watching this week's "Charmed" (which, sans Leo, SUCKS), and the newbie witch was torturing a demon for information...and I realized that this happens all the time on Charmed. And it's okay, because...demons aren't human. Doesn't apparently matter if they hurt and have feelings. In fact, it only works BECAUSE of those things. Which takes me back to S4 of BtVS. Buffy's approach to dealing with demons was to get in, do her job and get a clean kill. She was not one with the torture and experimentation, which is why what the Initiative was doing was so antithetical to her beliefs. She could engage in war against the demon population, if they posed a threat to human beings, but drew the line at torture and at killing those that did not pose a threat, e.g. Clem. The only demons Buffy would eliminate were those without "souls" (there's a whole other discussion of whether or not demon "souls" are souls at all, blah blah blah, which I don't want to open up here) and who made it their life's work to eliminate human beings. I can't recall a time when Buffy actually tortured a demon for information or just to break them. Maybe someone else can remember differently, and let me know. In all, engaging in torture, whether of what you perceive to be an inhuman thing or a human being, dehumanizes the torturer as much, if not more than the "torturee" (new word ). Yes! That's what I was getting at, too. The victim in a lot of these circumstances ends up being the one doing the inhumane thing to another - whether it be animal or human. Which makes me thing that the cylons are closer to being animals than they are machine. I vaguely remember Buffy using torture to get information, but I can't remember exactly.
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Post by Rachael on Jan 16, 2006 20:40:11 GMT -5
I think it's gonna be a little harder now that the humans have destroyed the Resurrection Ship. It's funny...I was just watching this week's "Charmed" (which, sans Leo, SUCKS), and the newbie witch was torturing a demon for information...and I realized that this happens all the time on Charmed. And it's okay, because...demons aren't human. Doesn't apparently matter if they hurt and have feelings. In fact, it only works BECAUSE of those things.I agree - but it works only when the demons aren't personalized. Once they are (as in Clem, Angel, Spike, Anya), then all bets are off. Oh, no - I didn't mean it works for me...the torturing bugs the shit out of me, every time they do it. I mean the torture only works because the person being tortured has understandable and manipulable responses...and that therefore the logic of it being okay because they're different from you is...not. Logical.
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Post by Lola m on Jan 16, 2006 21:45:38 GMT -5
*nodding, nodding, and downloading some random, possibly only tangentially related thoughts* "You can't rape a machine." I thought...well, then...why bother with it at all? Because if they ARE "bothering with it" then it IS rape. And therefore the Cylons AREN'T just machines. And why bother with the other kinds of beating and torturing of the Cylons, the way humans do other humans, especially during wartime? . I agree with pretty much all of what I snipped, but wanted to address the above: The bother because they know (they think they know) that they Cylons are "programmed" to respond to torture in the same way as humans do...but it's not "real", probably, in their minds. So it's not really torture. The emotions are a simulation, produced by a complicated machine. Now, in my mind, if someone has emotions, regardless of how they're generated, that to them are indistinguishable from the ones *I* have, then it's torture, pure and simple. And horrible. It's about empathy, and either having none or being able to suppress it in order to get the job done. Humans are really good at suppressing their empathy. *shudder* **nods vigorously**
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Post by Ran on Jan 18, 2006 8:45:22 GMT -5
Are we really sure that the Cylons are not playing a game of "We're humans with human emotions"?One can wonder.
They eradicated the whole humanity minus our survivors.Billions of people. Why? Revenge?Different beliefs?If Six saying the truth,it's a Holywar,a Djihad. The Cylons had their own world and it seems that mankind didn't want a new war.They were the assaillants. They destroyed twelve worlds and their entire population .Nuclear war with all its horror. Could explain a little the Pegasus' crew hate for the Cylons,no?
I definitely feel more sympathetic towards Cain even if her methods were terrifying (I hate rape or torture or the way she destroyed human lives for the sake of her ship,but...) than for the Cylons.And agree with Kara.Safer with her than without.She was a great leader. Adama and Roslin are not much better,IMHO.And their decisions are as harsh as Cain's,but they appear (appear being the right word.) more Human and that's it.Feel the love,people! The little wannabe Bin Laden/Hitler Boomer and Six are portrayed with human emotions but let's not forget these "people" erased most of Humanity.Manipulate us in seeing the soft side of the executors is a little much,IMO.Of course,Hitler and Bin Laden are less hot than our sensitive and beloved female Cylons. Their tears (If they had some.) would appear less...interesting,don't you think?.
Love's not an excuse for forgiveness when such terrible things are done to your fellow humans.Helo is a fool! As is Tyrol.Even if I can understand their emotions.It will come and bite them in the a**,I hope!
I remember a time when Buffy let Angelus wreak avoc and kill people because she loved him.She could stop him at any time and didn't.For months! Is love an excuse for letting a psychopath end dozens of lives?Create so much pain for the others? It seems to be a common belief these days,at least in the Jossverse.
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Post by Lola m on Jan 18, 2006 9:25:05 GMT -5
Are we really sure that the Cylons are not playing a game of "We're humans with human emotions"?One can wonder. They eradicated the whole humanity minus our survivors.Billions of people. Why? Revenge?Different beliefs?If Six saying the truth,it's a Holywar,a Djihad. The Cylons had their own world and it seems that mankind didn't want a new war.They were the assaillants. They destroyed twelve worlds and their entire population .Nuclear war with all its horror. Could explain a little the Pegasus' crew hate for the Cylons,no? I definitely feel more sympathetic towards Cain even if her methods were terrifying (I hate rape or torture or the way she destroyed human lives for the sake of her ship,but...) than for the Cylons.And agree with Kara.Safer with her than without.She was a great leader. Adama and Roslin are not much better,IMHO.And their decisions are as harsh as Cain's,but they appear (appear being the right word.) more Human and that's it.Feel the love,people! The little wannabe Bin Laden/Hitler Boomer and Six are portrayed with human emotions but let's not forget these "people" erased most of Humanity.Manipulate us in seeing the soft side of the executors is a little much,IMO.Of course,Hitler and Bin Laden are less hot than our sensitive and beloved female Cylons. Their tears (If they had some.) would appear less...interesting,don't you think?. Love's not an excuse for forgiveness when such terrible things are done to your fellow humans.Helo is a fool! As is Tyrol.Even if I can understand their emotions.It will come and bite them in the a**,I hope! I remember a time when Buffy let Angelus wreak avoc and kill people because she loved him.She could stop him at any time and didn't.For months! Is love an excuse for letting a psychopath end dozens of lives?Create so much pain for the others? It seems to be a common belief these days,at least in the Jossverse. It's a very good point. We don't want to forget the big attack / explosions thing at the start of the season. I mean, the cylons did do their best to kill every single human that exists. And haven't exactly stopped trying since then. I understand and agree with why the creator of the show felt he needed to add the thing with the civilian fleet to make Cain truly bad/scary in the eyes of the audience. Her behavior toward the cylons wasn't . . . quite enough.
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Post by Ran on Jan 18, 2006 13:20:20 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply,Lola. I love your reviews and your insight,BTW. And you're right.Cain had to appear like a monster even if,deep down,she's not worst than some of "our" beloved leaders.The show is ambigous but it's still a TV show.They can't make the heroes appear as bad as the Baddies.
I just wanted to add that it's easy to forget how dangerous the enemy is when it's portrayed in such a Human way.Find yourself empathizing with them. One of Humanity's weakness is it's short memory and the way it can be lured,like the audience(We're all human beings,ain't we?),in believing that war can be something clean.It's not. War is dirty,horrible.Nobody 's left unscathed.Leaders take horrifying decisions,torture being one of them.They have no other choice sometimes.The death and pain of some to save the lives of more people.Idealism dies in front of a real war."More kids dying" would say Cain. And not only litterally. Appolo the idealist is slowly realizing it and it kills him.
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Post by Sue on Jan 18, 2006 17:28:25 GMT -5
Regarding the last several posts:
Also a problem: separating individuals from the "collective."
Yes The Cylons didn't just wage war on the humans---they instituted genocide. And yet.............can each separate individual be held responsible for the the policies and actions of the instititution/governement/majority/"collective"?
I know I wouldn't want to be held personally responsible for every single action ever taken by the American government for the past 53 years. Or, even worse, if the super-advanced aliens from outer space ever land here---I'd rather not be judged in a big lump with all of humanity on all of the crimes of humanity against one another and the planet.
Another question:
Assume a child is born to fanatical (insert fanaticism of choice) parents is taken at birth, or at 1 year, or at 10 years after indoctrination is fairly far along, and adopted out to live with a family with totally different values. In the long run, who will the child identify with? His "genetic" people or the people who raised him? [And this could work either way---say a Quaker child is raised by neo-Nazis.]
It's not really possible, in my opinion, to hold individual Cyclons -- especially those in long term contact with humans -- responsible for every atrocity committed by the Cylon Nation.
Just....more food for thought. I think that's why they made the human versions for this run of BSG. There was really no way we were ever going to identify under any circumstances with the machine version. Which raises another interesting question. Six and Boomer are both highly attractive young women. How much effect is that having on us (the audience) wanting to accept them and give them the benefit of the doubt? Not saying we shouldn't (see comments above) but wondering if we would be as quick to see "their side" if they were ugly old men.
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Post by Karen on Jan 18, 2006 20:10:57 GMT -5
You really think that safety can be plucked from the arms of an evil deed? (Darla - Ats - Inside Out) I just love the way the S'cubies make me think about things. It's such a welcome distraction.
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Post by Ran on Jan 19, 2006 13:13:35 GMT -5
Interesting thoughts,Sue.
Individual responsibility vs collective? I guess it depends of your own values at that moment in time. The ones you were raised to believe in by your family and society are the base of your personnal beliefs,then it's all about your own personnal reflexion to what you're seeing around you. One can be raised to be a fanatic and realize by itself that one doesn't like,believes,anymore what one's been taught. Is passively watching events you don't like a form of responsibility? I think so.Unless you're Really,I mean Really, unable to react and try to do something to stop it (And no,I'm not a terrorist.There's other way to react than violence.People like ML King know a lot about it.) Are we to blame for our governments actions?If we try something -in the limits of the law or even out if it doesn't hurt anyone- to change them,no. If we're passive,we're accomplices.Just my opinion,of course.
In wars,we're powerless to react most of the time.On the sidelines or victims of it. But are Sharon ans Six on the sidelines?No. They're in the thick of the battle.They can act on the events and they do.And I only see very confusing actions. Are they with humanity,against it,playing their own agenda,obeying a Cylon authority? I have no answer. The only clue is that the Cylons have a Plan. Are they part of it,willingly or not?I guess so. May be Boomer or Six are trying to think by themselves.I have no answer either.We'll see. They can be human clones.Raised to think they're Cylons and they're slowly realizing that they don't belong with them but with Humanity because they have feelings.
May be they're sincere...but ,when in doubt and in war,I wouldn't bet on it like Helo or Tyrol for instance.They're blinded by love and too trusting.
As for your other reflexion about how our perceptions can be biased when the protagonists are attractive,I agree wholeheartedly.It's all about Human Nature.We relish beauty and sex. We want to believe one can't be so bad when it's so attractive.Satan was the most beautiful angel of God,wasn't he?Or she?As is Six? Would Baltar be so susceptible to her words if she was an ugly old woman? Spiders would attract more preys in their webs if they were more enticing.(May be they are for other insects)
Take Leni Riefenstahl,for instance.Beautiful german actress and director of the movie on the Olympic Games of 1938.She's an artist,a real,talented one,she's charismatic,she's made a wonderful,aesthetic movie.Watch that and tell me if it's not art with a capital A.But...What's behind it? Propaganda for the Third Reich and Fascism.Here,beauty is a trap. And I think that's what these Cylons,Six and Sharon, can be. Created to lure us because the Cylons know our weaknesses for love and beauty.
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Post by Lola m on Jan 19, 2006 21:22:30 GMT -5
Regarding the last several posts: Also a problem: separating individuals from the "collective." Yes The Cylons didn't just wage war on the humans---they instituted genocide. And yet............. can each separate individual be held responsible for the the policies and actions of the instititution/governement/majority/"collective"?I know I wouldn't want to be held personally responsible for every single action ever taken by the American government for the past 53 years. Or, even worse, if the super-advanced aliens from outer space ever land here---I'd rather not be judged in a big lump with all of humanity on all of the crimes of humanity against one another and the planet. Another question: Assume a child is born to fanatical (insert fanaticism of choice) parents is taken at birth, or at 1 year, or at 10 years after indoctrination is fairly far along, and adopted out to live with a family with totally different values. In the long run, who will the child identify with? His "genetic" people or the people who raised him? [And this could work either way---say a Quaker child is raised by neo-Nazis.] It's not really possible, in my opinion, to hold individual Cyclons -- especially those in long term contact with humans -- responsible for every atrocity committed by the Cylon Nation. Just....more food for thought. I think that's why they made the human versions for this run of BSG. There was really no way we were ever going to identify under any circumstances with the machine version. Which raises another interesting question. Six and Boomer are both highly attractive young women. How much effect is that having on us (the audience) wanting to accept them and give them the benefit of the doubt? Not saying we shouldn't (see comments above) but wondering if we would be as quick to see "their side" if they were ugly old men.#claps# Very good thoughts, Sue! I've been wondering about differences between individual cylons, particularly hte human appearing ones, who seem to have more autonomy than the more machine-like "toasters". They seem able to act contrary to the way that the other cylons are behaving, or to have different desires. Also really liked your thoughts about how we can be affected by the look of the humna cylons. Because of course those same issues are true for the humons in the show.
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Post by Lola m on Jan 19, 2006 21:26:29 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply,Lola. I love your reviews and your insight,BTW. And you're right.Cain had to appear like a monster even if,deep down,she's not worst than some of "our" beloved leaders.The show is ambigous but it's still a TV show.They can't make the heroes appear as bad as the Baddies. I just wanted to add that it's easy to forget how dangerous the enemy is when it's portrayed in such a Human way.Find yourself empathizing with them. One of Humanity's weakness is it's short memory and the way it can be lured,like the audience(We're all human beings,ain't we?),in believing that war can be something clean.It's not. War is dirty,horrible.Nobody 's left unscathed.Leaders take horrifying decisions,torture being one of them.They have no other choice sometimes.The death and pain of some to save the lives of more people.Idealism dies in front of a real war."More kids dying" would say Cain. And not only litterally. Appolo the idealist is slowly realizing it and it kills him. Thanks for the thanks, Ran. ;D I'm glad you are enjoying all the fab stuff here at the S3 site. I encourage you to join us as a member if you want. But whether you join or not, please continue to post here and in any of the other threads. I love reading other people's opinions on these shows.
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Post by Karen on Jan 20, 2006 14:43:25 GMT -5
I agree - but it works only when the demons aren't personalized. Once they are (as in Clem, Angel, Spike, Anya), then all bets are off. Oh, no - I didn't mean it works for me...the torturing bugs the shit out of me, every time they do it. I mean the torture only works because the person being tortured has understandable and manipulable responses...and that therefore the logic of it being okay because they're different from you is...not. Logical. You know, Spock I had to think about that for a few days, and finally got what you meant. Should a cylon be considered to be on the same playing field as a person? Logically, as far as our current knowledge goes, they shouldn't be. But out of necessity, should they be? I mean, the humans are at a disadvantage here - in numbers, especially. If they go after the cylons, guns blazing, no questions asked - Kill them all. They aren't human. They don't think like us. They hate us. What is the price of that? Six said that they want the destruction of mankind - but from what I can see, they also long for the humanity of man. They want it for themselves. That can work in the humans favor - and love is what is going to decide this. That's why I think that Boomer and her baby, and Helo and the Chief's love for her is so important. Maybe their love - what is often mistaken for weakness - is what the cylons are counting on to take over the human race. But the cylons don't know what a human/cylon baby will be like. Maybe it will be the saving of mankind and the destruction of the cylons. Or maybe it will bring about a new race. And what would be so bad about that anyway? //ETA// I dont' agree that it would necessarily be a good thing, either. Just playing devil's advocate a bit.//
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