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Post by havoc on Oct 9, 2006 15:07:38 GMT -5
Also, as has already been pointed out on this thread, she was in the previews for next week. I offered what I did precisely because it is rather tough to imagine how she could be in the previews if she was just gunned down. It does create a bit of a problem That last little bit in the hospital really had me mad. If she's playing the game to find an out, I could see it. But to see Starbuck brought to the level of making it with the nutbag cylon rapist model just boils my innards. So far, the cost has largely been cylons and collaborators (read: traitors). And though Roslin too thought he was going too far, she couldn't offer a better way and she's there. The cylons weren't much caring about less destructive ways of doing things when they took Starbuck's ovaries and raped her by fertilizing her eggs without her consent. There is a minority of a few cylons out of two models that want less damaging tactics used on their side. The problem is, that even if they prevailed, a guilded cage is still a cage. The primary weapons they have won't do much against tin cans, they can't resupply ammunition; but, they can make bombs. They're using what they have and generating an effective tactical advantage or trying to. Didn't see red lights on her spine while doing the nasty dance.. that's enough for me. Can they kill her now ;D This forum is 100% human. The point of the statement should have been clear - abundantly. The only thing distinguishing Baltar from Tigh's wife is their sex at this point, IMHO. A traitor is a traitor is a traitor. Their sex is immaterial to their actions. Baltar committed treason to save his own hide - again and again. She has done similar. In neither case did their sex have a thing to do with it. So I'm not sure where you're trying to go with the commentary. Baltar is a traitor and has been known to be one since the miniseries. For purposes of this series, the name baltar might as well be synonymous with the word Traitor. So, yes, this human is a female baltar - a traitor with female parts. When and if they shoot her for being a traitor, her sex will have nothing to do with the bullet impacting her. Same will be true with Baltar. Forgive me if I don't talk nicely about traitors.. it's kindof a gut reaction sort of thing.
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Post by Karen on Oct 9, 2006 15:16:48 GMT -5
Nice observing, Onjelimediator. I wonder about the Apollo's Arrow that they think is going to show them The Way. Maybe it refers to the human Apollo in some way (other than the literal Apollo's Arrow they found in the temple). I don't see how Apollo could be a Cylon because he has a father who is human. Ah, but what about his mother? If Sharon could have a human's baby. . .. I agree, though. I don't think Appollo is a Cylon, either. As to his "arrow", well let me just say Hmm..true. We haven't heard much about his mother/Adama's wife, have we? As for his arrow. Onjel! I'm shocked you would think that. I was thinking more in the lines of his offspring being an arrow.
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Post by Onjel on Oct 9, 2006 15:20:15 GMT -5
Ah, but what about his mother? If Sharon could have a human's baby. . .. I agree, though. I don't think Appollo is a Cylon, either. As to his "arrow", well let me just say Hmm..true. We haven't heard much about his mother/Adama's wife, have we? As for his arrow. Onjel! I'm shocked you would think that. I was thinking more in the lines of his offspring being an arrow. Hee! I'm so bad. Actually, if it's his offspring, or even if the Arrow is Appollo himself, that actually contributes to the theory that he is a Cylon or at least part Cylon. Hmmmmm. Maybe he is the key. I wonder if him getting fat factors into this somehow. Now, I sound like a conspiracy theorist.
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Post by Karen on Oct 9, 2006 15:21:25 GMT -5
Nice observing, Onjelimediator. I wonder about the Apollo's Arrow that they think is going to show them The Way. Maybe it refers to the human Apollo in some way (other than the literal Apollo's Arrow they found in the temple). I don't see how Apollo could be a Cylon because he has a father who is human. Well...what if he's a changeling? I mean, the "sleepers" would need to have fairly comprehensive life histories, anyway, right? Sharon has to have known parentage and whatnot, to get into the service, you'd think. Old friends... Changeling? Not sure what that is. 'Splainy? Did we determine if the Cylons were 'born' - as babies, because from my understanding, they are born as they are - full grown. I would think Adama would have seen Apollo grow up.
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Post by Karen on Oct 9, 2006 15:31:43 GMT -5
Hmm..true. We haven't heard much about his mother/Adama's wife, have we? As for his arrow. Onjel! I'm shocked you would think that. I was thinking more in the lines of his offspring being an arrow. Hee! I'm so bad. Actually, if it's his offspring, or even if the Arrow is Appollo himself, that actually contributes to the theory that he is a Cylon or at least part Cylon. Hmmmmm. Maybe he is the key. I wonder if him getting fat factors into this somehow. Now, I sound like a conspiracy theorist. LOL! Do you think Cylon 'men' can get maybe get pregnant?
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Post by havoc on Oct 9, 2006 15:32:02 GMT -5
Also, as has already been pointed out on this thread, she was in the previews for next week. I think a lot of us are hoping to see that. Especially if it doesn't involve her suddenly going all maternal. I think he's found a bit TOO much "clarity" there. He's seeing what needs to be done to win a war, but I don't think he's considering there might be other ways that don't cost so much. I don't think they'd have us wonder for 2 seasons whether she's a Cylon, show us she's not, and then kill her. I also don't think I'd describe her - or anyone - as "so-and-so with mams". Ever. Especially not in a forum that's 99% female. Also...she did what she did out of love for someone else. As misguided and illogical as she's behaving, she's doing it because she loves her husband. Baltar is a traitor out of self-interest. Baltar is a traitor out of self-interest = true. So is she. Whatever her motivating factors for reinforcing her decision, she is acting in her own self interest. Tyrol didn't love his wife any less. He didn't lose sight of the greater cause of freedom and safety for humanity as a whole. She acted in her own self interest while Tyrol did not. What the cylons do to Tigh they can do with or without the little Mrs.'s help. They used her love to make her act in her self interest rather than in the interest of the people as a whole. What should be a strength, they attacked as a weakness and she didn't have the moral character to stand up to it any more than Baltar did. Betrayal is betrayal. I think it's safe to say that none of the living or the dead would get all weepy inside over the fact they were betrayed for self interest with love as the tacit excuse.
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Post by Karen on Oct 9, 2006 15:46:36 GMT -5
Also...she did what she did out of love for someone else. As misguided and illogical as she's behaving, she's doing it because she loves her husband. Baltar is a traitor out of self-interest. Baltar is a traitor out of self-interest = true. So is she. Whatever her motivating factors for reinforcing her decision, she is acting in her own self interest. Tyrol didn't love his wife any less. He didn't lose sight of the greater cause of freedom and safety for humanity as a whole. She acted in her own self interest while Tyrol did not. What the cylons do to Tigh they can do with or without the little Mrs.'s help. They used her love to make her act in her self interest rather than in the interest of the people as a whole. What should be a strength, they attacked as a weakness and she didn't have the moral character to stand up to it any more than Baltar did. Betrayal is betrayal. I think it's safe to say that none of the living or the dead would get all weapy inside over the fact they were betrayed for self interest and love was the tacit excuse. Hi havoc! The premiere certainly gave us a lot of food for thought.
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Post by Karen on Oct 9, 2006 15:50:56 GMT -5
(Reposted separately because it didn't exactely address havoc's post I previously had quoted.)
Playing devil's advocate - If Tyrol had to compromise his integrity to save Callie and his son, do you think he'd do it?
See, the way I see it, in a society like that, one of the weapons that a woman has against the stronger oppressor, whether it be Cylon or man, is sex. It's been that way for eons, and when it comes down to it, the reason a woman will use it is because she has no other choice. Yeah, it is considered 'immoral' - but, seriously, if I had to choose between being 'immoral' and saving a loved one's life, well, I'd be 'immoral' as the next one. It takes courage.
Now, we see Ellen use her sexuality often, so we might say it doesn't mean anything to her. If we see Kara succumb to the same tactics, will we be able to forgive her for doing it mainly because she is more innocent in nature than Ellen is? Or will be hate her and say she should just die instead of submitting, and keep her dignity intact?
Also, I'm curious - if as you say, that a traitor is a traitor is a traitor, regardless of gender', why did you feel that you had to bring Ellen's gender into it when comparing her to Baltar, and in such a way as to be a putdown to the fairer sex? (Hint - we women don't generally like to be referred to as a 'man with mams'.)
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Post by Shan on Oct 9, 2006 16:03:55 GMT -5
(Reposted separately because it didn't exactely address havoc's post I previously had quoted.) Playing devil's advocate - If Tyrol had to compromise his integrity to save Callie and his son, do you think he'd do it? See, the way I see it, in a society like that, one of the weapons that a woman has against the stronger oppressor, whether it be Cylon or man, is sex. It's been that way for eons, and when it comes down to it, the reason a woman will use it is because she has no other choice. Yeah, it is considered 'immoral' - but, seriously, if I had to choose between being 'immoral' and saving a loved one's life, well, I'd be 'immoral' as the next one. It takes courage. Now, we see Ellen use her sexuality often, so we might say it doesn't mean anything to her. If we see Kara succumb to the same tactics, will we be able to forgive her for doing it mainly because she is more innocent in nature than Ellen is? Or will be hate her and say she should just die instead of submitting, and keep her dignity intact? Also, I'm curious - if as you say, that a traitor is a traitor is a traitor, regardless of gender', why did you feel that you had to bring Ellen's gender into it when comparing her to Baltar, and in such a way as to be a putdown to the fairer sex? (Hint - we women don't generally like to be referred to as a 'man with mams'.) Compromising integrity is one thing; I wouldn't personally fault anybody for doing it, whether male or female or using whatever means at their disposal. But when it puts an entire (or large portion of) the remains of a species at risk, I don't think I'm so disposed to excuse why they're doing it.
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Post by karen leaving on Oct 9, 2006 16:14:54 GMT -5
(Reposted separately because it didn't exactely address havoc's post I previously had quoted.) Playing devil's advocate - If Tyrol had to compromise his integrity to save Callie and his son, do you think he'd do it? See, the way I see it, in a society like that, one of the weapons that a woman has against the stronger oppressor, whether it be Cylon or man, is sex. It's been that way for eons, and when it comes down to it, the reason a woman will use it is because she has no other choice. Yeah, it is considered 'immoral' - but, seriously, if I had to choose between being 'immoral' and saving a loved one's life, well, I'd be 'immoral' as the next one. It takes courage. Now, we see Ellen use her sexuality often, so we might say it doesn't mean anything to her. If we see Kara succumb to the same tactics, will we be able to forgive her for doing it mainly because she is more innocent in nature than Ellen is? Or will be hate her and say she should just die instead of submitting, and keep her dignity intact? Also, I'm curious - if as you say, that a traitor is a traitor is a traitor, regardless of gender', why did you feel that you had to bring Ellen's gender into it when comparing her to Baltar, and in such a way as to be a putdown to the fairer sex? (Hint - we women don't generally like to be referred to as a 'man with mams'.) Compromising integrity is one thing; I wouldn't personally fault anybody for doing it, whether male or female or using whatever means at their disposal. But when it puts an entire (or large portion of) the remains of a species at risk, I don't think I'm so disposed to excuse why they're doing it. It's hard to see the larger picture when your loved one is in danger, which I so understand, but yeah - it's hard to excuse it, although not hard to understand it. It's even harder to excuse Ellen, because she knows the score and realizes that her actions will hurt others, and is extremely selfish in her motives to save her husband. Hmm..so, how do you see Adama's decision to possibly sacrifice the rest of the human race in order to save those remaining on NewCaprica? On another note. Kara is a different case. She was willing to sacrifice herself and fight to the last, but put a young, innocent creature in harm's way - possibly one of your own, then she didn't find it so easy. It'll be interesting to see if she's just playing Leoben, or is genuinely sympathetic to the little girl.
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Post by Shan on Oct 9, 2006 16:20:24 GMT -5
This forum is 100% human. The point of the statement should have been clear - abundantly. The only thing distinguishing Baltar from Tigh's wife is their sex at this point, IMHO. A traitor is a traitor is a traitor. Their sex is immaterial to their actions. Baltar committed treason to save his own hide - again and again. She has done similar. In neither case did their sex have a thing to do with it. So I'm not sure where you're trying to go with the commentary. Baltar is a traitor and has been known to be one since the miniseries. For purposes of this series, the name baltar might as well be synonymous with the word Traitor. So, yes, this human is a female baltar - a traitor with female parts. When and if they shoot her for being a traitor, her sex will have nothing to do with the bullet impacting her. Same will be true with Baltar. Forgive me if I don't talk nicely about traitors.. it's kindof a gut reaction sort of thing. I know what your point was. MY point was that "mams" was a poor choice of words, considering your audience. Engaging in a discussion with other humans is much more interesting and productive when nobody's offended.
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Post by Shan on Oct 9, 2006 16:26:05 GMT -5
Compromising integrity is one thing; I wouldn't personally fault anybody for doing it, whether male or female or using whatever means at their disposal. But when it puts an entire (or large portion of) the remains of a species at risk, I don't think I'm so disposed to excuse why they're doing it. It's hard to see the larger picture when your loved one is in danger, which I so understand, but yeah - it's hard to excuse it, although not hard to understand it. It's even harder to excuse Ellen, because she knows the score and realizes that her actions will hurt others, and is extremely selfish in her motives to save her husband. Maybe Ellen's one of those women who doesn't think she'll have anything at all if she doesn't have Saul. No power, no status, nothing. She wouldn't be the first woman to use sex - or not care if others died - so she could either gain or try to keep from losing it. <edit> That's IF that's all she is. Which I doubt, because I don't doubt she loves Saul and is VERY interested in the rest of humanity surviving. I had a brain tangent on the "only type of power" thing. I never DIDN'T. We all knew he was coming back, too. That was never a worry. Not like pregnant!towel!Apollo. Kara's crafty. She might be able to pull off both scenarios.
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Post by Rachael on Oct 9, 2006 16:33:38 GMT -5
This forum is 100% human. The point of the statement should have been clear - abundantly. The only thing distinguishing Baltar from Tigh's wife is their sex at this point, IMHO. A traitor is a traitor is a traitor. Their sex is immaterial to their actions. Baltar committed treason to save his own hide - again and again. She has done similar. In neither case did their sex have a thing to do with it. So I'm not sure where you're trying to go with the commentary. I can probably offer some clarity on that. The term "mams" itself is offensive. At least to me, and apparently to Shan. And I disagree that "a traitor is a traitor is a traitor". As with anything else, there are varieties and shades. The motivations, the reason why someone might betray others are relevant, at least to me (and, it seems, to the writers and producers of BSG, since they're providing us with so many different types to deal with). Tigh's wife is doing what she's doing to try and prevent death. Specifically, her husband's death, and more generally, that of other humans who are getting caught in the crossfire, in her view. It's very different from Baltar, who has never had anything but his own self-interests in mind. Hell, the fact that she's having sex with someone she completely despises shows just how much she's willing to sacrifice of herself for the love of other people. It's a side to the character that I hadn't expected to see. The other collaborators, the police force...I'm sure they're not monolithic, either. Some are undoubtedly in the Baltar mode, some are doing it for their own glory, but I'm sure some think it's for the best, the best way to help their fellow humans. For some people, going alone is preferable to prolonging the violence and having the ever-shrinking human population shrink even more.
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Post by Rachael on Oct 9, 2006 16:35:50 GMT -5
Well...what if he's a changeling? I mean, the "sleepers" would need to have fairly comprehensive life histories, anyway, right? Sharon has to have known parentage and whatnot, to get into the service, you'd think. Old friends... Changeling? Not sure what that is. 'Splainy? Did we determine if the Cylons were 'born' - as babies, because from my understanding, they are born as they are - full grown. I would think Adama would have seen Apollo grow up. I meant a substitute - the real Apollo, or Sharon, having been replaced with a Cylon double, and the original spirited away or murdered. It could conceivably happen at any point in the individual's life - there could be a Cylon Apollo out there, waiting to take his place right now. We don't know if the humaniforms are "originals", or modeled off an existing human.
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Post by Rachael on Oct 9, 2006 16:38:12 GMT -5
Also...she did what she did out of love for someone else. As misguided and illogical as she's behaving, she's doing it because she loves her husband. Baltar is a traitor out of self-interest. Baltar is a traitor out of self-interest = true. So is she. Whatever her motivating factors for reinforcing her decision, she is acting in her own self interest. Tyrol didn't love his wife any less. He didn't lose sight of the greater cause of freedom and safety for humanity as a whole. Yeah, I completely disagree about that. He's lost sight of the greater cause in a big way - winning at any cost makes you as bad as those you're fighting. The cause should include remaining human, IMO. Wow. That's an incredibly bleak view of human nature. I can't agree on any point, here.
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