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Post by Shan on Oct 9, 2006 17:03:54 GMT -5
Changeling? Not sure what that is. 'Splainy? Did we determine if the Cylons were 'born' - as babies, because from my understanding, they are born as they are - full grown. I would think Adama would have seen Apollo grow up. I meant a substitute - the real Apollo, or Sharon, having been replaced with a Cylon double, and the original spirited away or murdered. It could conceivably happen at any point in the individual's life - there could be a Cylon Apollo out there, waiting to take his place right now. We don't know if the humaniforms are "originals", or modeled off an existing human. Have you been reading the comic book series?
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Post by Rachael on Oct 9, 2006 17:10:09 GMT -5
I meant a substitute - the real Apollo, or Sharon, having been replaced with a Cylon double, and the original spirited away or murdered. It could conceivably happen at any point in the individual's life - there could be a Cylon Apollo out there, waiting to take his place right now. We don't know if the humaniforms are "originals", or modeled off an existing human. Have you been reading the comic book series? Not remotely. But you have to admit, it's a reasonable line of inquiry....
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Post by havoc on Oct 9, 2006 17:52:30 GMT -5
(Reposted separately because it didn't exactely address havoc's post I previously had quoted.) Playing devil's advocate - If Tyrol had to compromise his integrity to save Callie and his son, do you think he'd do it? He might, or he might not. The person isn't the issue, it is the behavior that is. Love is a self interest. Does one really imagine that all the other families sacrificing love their families less because they're acting on behalf of the whole.. This is just plain misguided and a slight on all of them. Mrs. Tigh. I think I used that version of reference to her in noting that, yes, she is supposed to be married. Sex means a lot to her and as a result, she projected that on the cylon in thinking that she could use sex as a weapon to get what she wanted. The cylon let it slip that it just wasn't the case, then corrected his rhetoric to maintain the illusion. Keeping Saul caged and loosing him later was a tactic being used to flush out other leaders of the resistance. Ellen just gave him a bonus of getting sex on top of abusing both of them tactically. I hadn't particularly thought anything about her strategizing. I looked at the end result. She looked after her self interests and to heck with everyone else. As for Kara. It isn't the issue of sex that has me upset at Ellen, it is the issue of betrayal. Kara hasn't reached a point of betrayal of anyone but herself. My anger is that they have raped her and pushed her to borderline if not over the line NUTS. I could be wrong; but, there is so much about that situation that is just plain evil that one cannot help being angered by it IMHO. The situations are different though. The cylon, In Kara's case, is actually trying to subborn Kara's love. In Ellen's case, that is not so. What they are doing with Kara is quite different. The goal is yet unknown. I wasn't comparing her to Baltar, I was equating her with Baltar and noting the only place they differed was in sexuality. Secondly, I didn't refer to all women as men with mams. I referred to Ellen as the female Baltar with the emphasis on Baltar and treason rather than on sex. And from reading the thread, it wasn't the "man with mams" idea that made the respondant mad, it was the word "mams". Frankly, I'm stunned. The interesting position I see is that some would defend Ellen's behavior - acting in self-interest over her feelings and denying that it is a self interest. If love isn't a self interest, then Marriage means nothing and boundaries in relationships need not exist. Indeed, if it is not a self-interest, none of you should be the least bit bothered by 'your beau' (noting other males present), noticing another, being enticed by another, sleeping with another or giving another preference over yourself. It's not only a self interest, it is the king of them. And it's been a defended self interest since time immemorial. Perhaps "stunned" isn't a strong enough word here.
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Post by Karen on Oct 9, 2006 19:52:31 GMT -5
Changeling? Not sure what that is. 'Splainy? Did we determine if the Cylons were 'born' - as babies, because from my understanding, they are born as they are - full grown. I would think Adama would have seen Apollo grow up. I meant a substitute - the real Apollo, or Sharon, having been replaced with a Cylon double, and the original spirited away or murdered. It could conceivably happen at any point in the individual's life - there could be a Cylon Apollo out there, waiting to take his place right now. We don't know if the humaniforms are "originals", or modeled off an existing human. That is a scary thought. That doubles can be made up and substituted at will. How do you fight something like that?
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Post by Rachael on Oct 9, 2006 19:55:28 GMT -5
I meant a substitute - the real Apollo, or Sharon, having been replaced with a Cylon double, and the original spirited away or murdered. It could conceivably happen at any point in the individual's life - there could be a Cylon Apollo out there, waiting to take his place right now. We don't know if the humaniforms are "originals", or modeled off an existing human. That is a scary thought. That doubles can be made up and substituted at will. How do you fight something like that? Yeah, see - this has been one of my questions from Day One. I always wanted to know about Sharon's childhood. Are there people around who remember not-adult Sharon? And if so...when did the substitution occur?
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Post by Shan on Oct 9, 2006 20:43:14 GMT -5
(Reposted separately because it didn't exactely address havoc's post I previously had quoted.) Playing devil's advocate - If Tyrol had to compromise his integrity to save Callie and his son, do you think he'd do it? What's misguided? The story's far from over, and this aspect of Ellen's story is just beginning. For the first two seasons, the writers led us to believe she was a Cylon agent. Now, I'm interested in seeing where her character goes so I'm not ready to write her off as a traitor just yet. We haven't yet seen the end result of her stealing the papers, but we do know that part of it is that the New Caprica Cylons are about to meet up with Sharon Agathon's ground force because of the information Ellen gave them. One thing I do believe is that, in order to save Saul, while Ellen may have been willing to sacrifice a small contingent of insurgents that did NOT include Saul, it was fewer human people lost than when Saul ordered Duck to do the suicide bombing at the graduation. The end result is that Saul, the LEADER of the insurgents, survives. For now. Ellen did that, and I don't think she's unaware that she saved not only Saul the man, her husband, but Colonel Tigh, the leader of the resistence. Again, with the story only just being started, I don't see Kara as having betrayed anybody at all, even herself, so far. Actually, they're very similar in sexuality in that they very much like - for various reasons - boinking members of the opposite sex. This "respondant" actually disagreed that Ellen was like Baltar at all in her motivations but didn't get as far as explaining that because she was too busy kindly trying to point out that "mams" - whether used in reference to all or simply one woman - was the kind of word that causes a guy's comments to get ignored, especially when said comments are made in a roomful of women. Again with the so completely bleak a point of view of humanity, I can't agree with anything here, especially with trying to wind us all up with your "none of you should be the least bit bothered by your beau (doing whatever)" comment. That borders on trolling and isn't what we DO here. Me, I'm very interested in the STORYLINE reasons behind Ellen's behavior, not in just running every action through my own worldview filters. Part of my interest in watching the show is that I want to eventually understand why she's doing what she's doing and what the results are from the point of view of the writers, but I think it's too early in the storytelling season to decide that yet. The storylines have been sophisticated enough so far that I find it far too early to judge Ellen's behavior and way too illogical to extrapolate from it "If you think Ellen is boinking a Cylon in order to free the man she loves, marriage means nothing to you and you shouldn't be upset if your spouse cheats on you". In any case, I'm curious to see what happens next.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 9, 2006 21:10:30 GMT -5
That is a scary thought. That doubles can be made up and substituted at will. How do you fight something like that? Yeah, see - this has been one of my questions from Day One. I always wanted to know about Sharon's childhood. Are there people around who remember not-adult Sharon? And if so...when did the substitution occur? There's some episode in the first season (I think it's the one where she asks Baltar to run his cylon detector on her) where she gives her fabricated backstory. Something about parents and such perishing in a flood or fire or some such. And Six whispers in Baltar's ear about how convenient it is that there's no one left alive who can corroborate her story. The beauty of it is, so many people lost everyone close to them during the attack on the colonies that the Cylon's embedded in the fleet can't be ferreted out in this manner.
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Post by Sara on Oct 9, 2006 21:10:50 GMT -5
(Reposted separately because it didn't exactely address havoc's post I previously had quoted.) Playing devil's advocate - If Tyrol had to compromise his integrity to save Callie and his son, do you think he'd do it? He might, or he might not. The person isn't the issue, it is the behavior that is. Love is a self interest. Does one really imagine that all the other families sacrificing love their families less because they're acting on behalf of the whole.. This is just plain misguided and a slight on all of them. But doesn't that presume their motives are entirely altruistic? I mean, a person could make a sacrifice for the good of all precisely because they think it's also the best way to help their family--the two aren't always mutually exclusive. See, to me one look at her face told me her actions were about anything but self-interest--she felt absolutely disgusted by what she was doing, self-loathing evident ever time she and Cavil finished another round. I mean, if Ellen was all about saving herself, making sure she comes out okay (which is how I'd characterize being all about self-interest), then why try to fool Cavil at all? Why not dump Tigh and just give herself over to Cavil completely? Because she's hedging her bets until she knows she's backing the eventual winner? I don't think so--she could always say later on that she was only with Cavil to try and help the resistance, or to save her husband. And besides, Ellen has to know that Saul will more than likely dump her if the truth ever comes out, leaving her with absolutely nothing but his hatred and scorn. Yet that was a gamble she was willing to take if it meant he would still be alive. Now, I'm not saying this was a good strategy on her part. But I do feel Ellen is, perhaps for the first time in her life, acting as selflessly as she knows how. Well, for one thing it's an inaccurate thing to say--Baltar himself actually does have mammary glands, as do all men (which is why men can get breast cancer). So if we're reducing men and women down to their sexual organs, it'd probably be better if you'd characterized her as Baltar without a penis. And second, it's just never fun to hear someone reduce your particular segment of humanity down to one aspect of who you are, let alone an aspect that men tend to objectify already. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of mental and physical differences between men and women after all--why not instead say "she's like Baltar with an x chromosome," Besides, I'd argue describing her as Baltar 'with mams' is completely superfulous to your point; simply saying "To me, there's absolutely no difference between Ellen and Baltar" conveys the exact same information. So why throw that in there at all? See, here I'm having all sorts of trouble. I understand how it could be argued that a relationship is in part about self-interest; you're with someone because they make you happy, because you like how they make you feel. But marriage is also sometimes about doing things that aren't in your self-interest in order to make the person you love happy, from something as simple as watching a movie you hate because it's their favorite to starting over in a new city because it was best for your partner's job to move. Besides, for many centuries marriage wasn't usually in the interest of the people involved at all; marriage as a love match is a fairly recent development, history-wise--the self-interest belonged to the parents (usually fathers) who arranged the match. At any rate, despite my anger at Ellen for some of her actions I'm still very intrigued by this storyline and where it might be going. Especially once Tigh finds out what she's done. That, to borrow a phrase, will be an interesting day...
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Post by Karen on Oct 9, 2006 21:24:15 GMT -5
That is a scary thought. That doubles can be made up and substituted at will. How do you fight something like that? Yeah, see - this has been one of my questions from Day One. I always wanted to know about Sharon's childhood. Are there people around who remember not-adult Sharon? And if so...when did the substitution occur? My guess. The Cylons are not copies of real people, but their histories are made up. Anyway, that's what I hope. Of course, DNA to make the human looking Cylons might need to have been lifted from real people. That might be the key they're missing and why they need to keep the humans alive until they figure out how bear a baby Cylon. The can't get rid of the human element, and they are hoping that they can breed a cylon/human baby that is more cylon than human. Hmmm...that isn't possible, I wouldn't think. Man, I'm confusing myself.
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Post by Shan on Oct 9, 2006 21:46:11 GMT -5
Yeah, see - this has been one of my questions from Day One. I always wanted to know about Sharon's childhood. Are there people around who remember not-adult Sharon? And if so...when did the substitution occur? My guess. The Cylons are not copies of real people, but their histories are made up. Anyway, that's what I hope. Of course, DNA to make the human looking Cylons might need to have been lifted from real people. That might be the key they're missing and why they need to keep the humans alive until they figure out how bear a baby Cylon. The can't get rid of the human element, and they are hoping that they can breed a cylon/human baby that is more cylon than human. Hmmm...that isn't possible, I wouldn't think. Man, I'm confusing myself. Well, because of the existence of the backtories (and related to that the sleeper agents) and because of the fact that #6 had been "infiltrating" not just Baltar for 2 years but SOMEONE who had to have investigated her purported background in order to hire her, I assumed that the "skinjobs" could be replacements. Also, I've been reading the comic series...*koff* Um, there's also the fact that the skinjobs and humans seem to be able to procreate. I haven't been thinking about the Cylons keeping the humans alive just for that reason, though. I mean...what about the "peaceful coexistence" idea? They could have just rounded all the New Capricans up and babyfarmed them instead of trying, in their frakked up way, to keep the humans in a sort of society. <edit> Also see below to Liz...very tired now. Must go to bed...
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Post by Shan on Oct 9, 2006 21:50:29 GMT -5
Yeah, see - this has been one of my questions from Day One. I always wanted to know about Sharon's childhood. Are there people around who remember not-adult Sharon? And if so...when did the substitution occur? There's some episode in the first season (I think it's the one where she asks Baltar to run his cylon detector on her) where she gives her fabricated backstory. Something about parents and such perishing in a flood or fire or some such. And Six whispers in Baltar's ear about how convenient it is that there's no one left alive who can corroborate her story. The beauty of it is, so many people lost everyone close to them during the attack on the colonies that the Cylon's embedded in the fleet can't be ferreted out in this manner. That's true about the fleet Cylons having it easy in that regard. But, kind of like I was trying to say in response to Karen's comments, I guess I fanwanked Boomer's backstory into being that Sharon the human was real at some point, and so was her backstory that the Cylons programmed into Cylon!Sharon. I mean, she was in training with all the rest of them, right? Long enough to develop deep relationships with them, particularly Chief. That had to have spanned more than 2 years. Not the relationship with Chief, but someone able to track her back at least that far.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 9, 2006 21:54:22 GMT -5
There's some episode in the first season (I think it's the one where she asks Baltar to run his cylon detector on her) where she gives her fabricated backstory. Something about parents and such perishing in a flood or fire or some such. And Six whispers in Baltar's ear about how convenient it is that there's no one left alive who can corroborate her story. The beauty of it is, so many people lost everyone close to them during the attack on the colonies that the Cylon's embedded in the fleet can't be ferreted out in this manner. That's true about the fleet Cylons having it easy in that regard. But, kind of like I was trying to say in response to Karen's comments, I guess I fanwanked Boomer's backstory into being that Sharon the human was real at some point, and so was her backstory that the Cylons programmed into Cylon!Sharon. I mean, she was in training with all the rest of them, right? Long enough to develop deep relationships with them, particularly Chief. That had to have spanned more than 2 years. Not the relationship with Chief, but someone able to track her back at least that far. I just wish that they would make it clear on the show at some point, because I think I'm right, but there are plenty of people who are going for the Replacement Theory and there is room for interpreting it that way. ;D
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Post by Karen on Oct 9, 2006 21:59:51 GMT -5
My guess. The Cylons are not copies of real people, but their histories are made up. Anyway, that's what I hope. Of course, DNA to make the human looking Cylons might need to have been lifted from real people. That might be the key they're missing and why they need to keep the humans alive until they figure out how bear a baby Cylon. The can't get rid of the human element, and they are hoping that they can breed a cylon/human baby that is more cylon than human. Hmmm...that isn't possible, I wouldn't think. Man, I'm confusing myself. Well, because of the existence of the backtories (and related to that the sleeper agents) and because of the fact that #6 had been "infiltrating" not just Baltar for 2 years but SOMEONE who had to have investigated her purported background in order to hire her, I assumed that the "skinjobs" could be replacements. Also, I've been reading the comic series...*koff* Um, there's also the fact that the skinjobs and humans seem to be able to procreate. I haven't been thinking about the Cylons keeping the humans alive just for that reason, though. I mean...what about the "peaceful coexistence" idea? They could have just rounded all the New Capricans up and babyfarmed them instead of trying, in their frakked up way, to keep the humans in a sort of society. <edit> Also see below to Liz...very tired now. Must go to bed... Ah. Ok - so they need the humans, why? Because baby-farmed cylon/humans don't have a soul?
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 9, 2006 22:02:29 GMT -5
Well, because of the existence of the backtories (and related to that the sleeper agents) and because of the fact that #6 had been "infiltrating" not just Baltar for 2 years but SOMEONE who had to have investigated her purported background in order to hire her, I assumed that the "skinjobs" could be replacements. Also, I've been reading the comic series...*koff* Um, there's also the fact that the skinjobs and humans seem to be able to procreate. I haven't been thinking about the Cylons keeping the humans alive just for that reason, though. I mean...what about the "peaceful coexistence" idea? They could have just rounded all the New Capricans up and babyfarmed them instead of trying, in their frakked up way, to keep the humans in a sort of society. <edit> Also see below to Liz...very tired now. Must go to bed... Ah. Ok - so they need the humans, why? Because baby cylon/humans don't have a soul? I thought they needed humans because they couldn't get themselves pregnant and/or form a cylon/cylon embryo.
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Post by Shan on Oct 9, 2006 22:03:29 GMT -5
Well, because of the existence of the backtories (and related to that the sleeper agents) and because of the fact that #6 had been "infiltrating" not just Baltar for 2 years but SOMEONE who had to have investigated her purported background in order to hire her, I assumed that the "skinjobs" could be replacements. Also, I've been reading the comic series...*koff* Um, there's also the fact that the skinjobs and humans seem to be able to procreate. I haven't been thinking about the Cylons keeping the humans alive just for that reason, though. I mean...what about the "peaceful coexistence" idea? They could have just rounded all the New Capricans up and babyfarmed them instead of trying, in their frakked up way, to keep the humans in a sort of society. <edit> Also see below to Liz...very tired now. Must go to bed... Ah. Ok - so they need the humans, why? Because baby cylon/humans don't have a soul? Don't the cylons think the cylons have souls? Otherwise, what's the point of their god? Or are we just only able to view it from our own perspective? <edit> Also, what Liz said. *blinks, slightly non-functional*
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