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Post by Shan on Oct 13, 2006 10:08:14 GMT -5
On the surface, the BATTLESTAR GALACTICA Season 3 premiere seemed very exciting. Great action, dramatic moments and competent acting. However . . . throughout the entire two hours, I found myself wondering why the Cylons didn't simply wipe out all of the Colonials trapped on New Caprica. Their reasons for keeping them alive didn't make any sense to me. I had this feeling that Ronald Moore had used some lame, philosophical reason as an excuse to prevent the Cylons from killing the humans in order to include some kind of "resistance movement" story arc into the series. Oh, I should mention that from what I've seen of the story so far, one of the reasons the Cylons are keeping the humans alive is their own version of feeling the need to "spread the word of God". While I don't personally enjoy others proselytizing or trying to convert ME to their religion, it's only because I'm happy as I am, not because I think they have "some lame philosophical" reason for trying.
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Post by fish1941 on Oct 13, 2006 11:36:41 GMT -5
For me, this is why I find the whole "New Caprica resistance movement" rather irrevelant. It seems as if Ronald Moore had created some lame philosophical reason for the Cylons to keep the humans alive and indulge in this resistance story arc. It just doesn't work for me.
Well, I'm happy for him. It tells me that even unoriginality can be celebrated. I just personally wish that Moore could be a little more original than this.
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Post by Onjel on Oct 13, 2006 13:46:25 GMT -5
For me, this is why I find the whole "New Caprica resistance movement" rather irrevelant. It seems as if Ronald Moore had created some lame philosophical reason for the Cylons to keep the humans alive and indulge in this resistance story arc. It just doesn't work for me. Well, I'm happy for him. It tells me that even unoriginality can be celebrated. I just personally wish that Moore could be a little more original than this. Well, as has already been said, you don't have to watch it if you find it so lacking in originality and good story-telling.
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Post by Sara on Oct 13, 2006 14:07:40 GMT -5
For me, this is why I find the whole "New Caprica resistance movement" rather irrevelant. It seems as if Ronald Moore had created some lame philosophical reason for the Cylons to keep the humans alive and indulge in this resistance story arc. It just doesn't work for me. Well, there's also the part where the Cylons have, throughout the course of the series, viewed humanity as like a parent in many ways. After all, it wasn't the humans that made Cylons look like other humans--the Cylons themselves did that. Yes, in part they did it to place Cylons in positions of power, but it's been a while since such subterfuge has been necessary. So I suspect there could be another impulse driving their continued use of bodies that so completely emulate the human form. Of course unoriginality can be celebrated--take a look at the bestseller lists or what the top-grossing movies have been over the past decade, and I think you'll find there's not a lot of true originality to be had. Besides, more than one writer has said over the years that in truth there's only four or five basic stories in the world--we humans simply keep retelling 'em in various forms and permutations. Like the love triangle, the battle of good vs. evil, that sort of thing. So originality is often less a matter of what story you're telling as it is how you're telling it and what kinds of new insights can be gleaned from it. As the show itself is demonstrating right now, there's little difference on the surface between the fictional struggle we're watching and the very real-life battles being waged now in various parts of the world, particularly the Middle East. Where the originality comes in is the perspective most viewers are being asked to take--we're watching people we've come to care about and respect use tactics most of us associate with "the enemy." I mean, I personally can't recall the last time a show featured a suicide bomber acting on behalf of the side I'm supposed to be rooting for--that, to me, is indeed an original way to tell a story such as this. In addition, since a truly original story is hard to come by most writers would argue the best way to inject originality is through the characters you use. And from my perspective, the characters of BSG are among the most nuanced, multi-faceted, and painfully human characters running around on our t.v. screens these days. None are purely noble or purely hateful, and we've often seen the folks we admire most do things that are far from admirable--such as Roslyn's lying to Sharon about the fate of her baby. As for myself, I know I didn't start watching BSG for the storyline; I ended up staying with it after my first viewing because I was intrigued by the characters, particularly because they felt like people more than like fictional creations--they did dumb things for petty reasons, struggled with doing the right thing when it was also the most difficult choice, and often failed to live up to their better selves. And if a character or characters ring true for me emotionally, then I'll usually stay with 'em no matter how cliché the story around them can get. Anyway, it seems to me that originality can mean many different things to different people. Myself, I go for emotional honesty (as I see it) over novelty of storyline any day of the week. But, as we're fond of saying around here, YMMV.
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Post by Onjel on Oct 13, 2006 14:21:14 GMT -5
Exactly, Sara. As I said earlier, the characters and the way in which their stories are told are what got me hooked in the first place. I mean, after all, there was an earlier version of BSG so, it can't be said that the idea itself is original. And, what does that mean, anyway? This version gives us ways to view the human condition and struggles in a new milieu and in new and intricate ways. I personally find the struggles of the characters on this show to be a fascinating glimpse into the variations of behavior, reaction and attitude among us and I think it's a great mirror in which to study and evaluate our own behavior, reactions and attitudes.
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Post by Shan on Oct 13, 2006 14:22:03 GMT -5
Well, I'm happy for him. It tells me that even unoriginality can be celebrated. I just personally wish that Moore could be a little more original than this. Apparently, you would have preferred the Cylons had destroyed all the humans and ended the story right there. All you have to do for that to happen, at least for yourself, is pretend everyone died and then not watch the show. The rest of us are happy enough to continue to enjoy celebrating the the things about it that WE find to be interesting and original. Personally, I no longer feel the need to try to convince you that the show is worth watching. You've obviously already made up your mind.
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Post by Rachael on Oct 13, 2006 15:36:41 GMT -5
Well, I'm happy for him. It tells me that even unoriginality can be celebrated. The above is a bit of an insult to, well, everyone on the thread. We enjoy the show, and I guarantee you we know good storytelling from bad. You don't have to enjoy it - you're welcome to your opinion, and welcome to express it here - AS REGARDS THE SHOW. However, expressing negative opinions of the people who watch the show isn't acceptable. Walking into a room full of people and insulting them all is not polite, and it's not what we do here.
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Post by Karen on Oct 14, 2006 10:08:47 GMT -5
After rewatching this episode, I had to correct something I had previously posted (correction in red):
ETA: Had the same thought about the Cylon god the other day. If it is a human, then the Al/Cylon/Priest's model's comment about seeing god makes sense, in light of the way he acts.
To know the face of god is to know madness.
ETA: It was Leoben who said that to Kara, not Cavil. Sorry.
Searching further, I found that he had said the same thing once before to Kara - in Season 1.
Leoben Conoy: (laughing) I was right. See, our faiths are similar but I look to one god, not to many.
Starbuck: I don't give a damn what you believe.
Leoben Conoy: To know the face of god is to know madness. I see the universe. I see the patterns. I see the foreshadowing that precedes every moment of every day. It's all there. I see it and you don't. And I have a surprise for you. I have something to tell you about the future.
Starbuck: Is that so?
Leoben Conoy: It is. But we have to see this through to the end. What is the most basic article of faith? This is not all that we are. See, the difference between you and me is, I know what that means and you don't. I know that I'm more than this body, more than this consciousness. A part of me swims in the stream but in truth, I'm standing on the shore. The current never takes me downstream.
I still have no clue as to what it means, but Leoben acts more like a religious cylon than Cavil.
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Post by Karen on Oct 14, 2006 10:15:17 GMT -5
Does anybody have a translation for the lyrics here? Man, I kept thinking they were going to reveal another cylon model. Rats. Also on the rewatch, what Duck said right before he blew himself up has me convinced he is also a Cylon. I caught it the first time, but forgot. He said "See you soon, Nora." to the Lucy Lawless number. Now, I suppose it could mean that he meant 'see you in the afterlife', but it could also mean that he meant he knew he'd be coming back again in this life. EETAH!
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Post by Karen on Oct 14, 2006 10:26:58 GMT -5
Hey, I know the answer to that one. If the Cylons wiped out the Colonials, then the story would be over. Seriously, that's one of the things we're trying to figure out here in the many posts in this thread. It doesn't make sense to us because we don't know their 'plan'. Hee! I thought that, too: No Caprica 2, no story! Me, I figure it's not so far out of line that the plan is that there are enough Cylons who are so incredibly narcissistic (omg, can I even SPELL that at this point?!) that they want to know what humans think of them themselves[/i]...not just as Cylons in general but as whatever model number...6, 8, 11, 12....beta, 1.2, 3.0, 4.3...etc..because for whatever reason, they're starting to seem different to themselves now...[/quote] Oh, yeah. There is certainly alot of that going on. Wanting to feel 'love', but finding out that there is a lot of pain that goes along with it - and wrestling with the question - is love is worth the pain.
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Post by Karen on Oct 14, 2006 10:44:38 GMT -5
Well, at least they know about the Sharon ahead of time.. Ellen.. is she there to betray them or to warn them? Oh crap. Good and tempting for her isn't it? Crap. SHIT. Oh, Ellen.... don't do it.... Gaeta is pissed... Yeah, there was. You could have died in their place. No, actually...just this once, Baltar did the right thing, even though it cost him the last little sliver of his soul. They'd have killed them anyway, with or without the signature. There was no "in their place". And Baltar, selfish nutcase that he is, isn't stupid enough to believe there's any real political advantage he's denying them. They're playing at being political "allies", but we all know that's not the case. And so do they. So his death would accomplish nothing except to give him an easy way out. Oh, and... I find it fascinating that Al-Cylon (whatever his name actually is) seems to be the only one who doesn't believe in the Cylon god. It's interesting, especially in light of my personal theory that their god actually exists.... What if he's been programmed that way - to be a cynic, the same as Leobon has been programmed to believe in his one god. Which, come to think of it, is interesting in light of how they are being paired up with the humans. Kara - believes in the gods/Loebon- the same. Cavil/Ellen, both cynical type-more evil than most of their kind - characters.\\ So, then following that reasoning, we see Boomer and Adama being paired up - and I'm thinking here more in the way they keep having to deal with each other. Six/Baltar, of course. Less obvious, Callie/Tyrol, maybe? Because Callie just screams 'cylon' to me. Then there's D and Apollo.... Hmm...
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Post by Matthew on Oct 14, 2006 10:47:30 GMT -5
Does anybody have a translation for the lyrics here? Man, I kept thinking they were going to reveal another cylon model. Rats. Also on the rewatch, what Duck said right before he blew himself up has me convinced he is also a Cylon. I caught it the first time, but forgot. He said "See you soon, Nora." to the Lucy Lawless number. Now, I suppose it could mean that he meant 'see you in the afterlife', but it could also mean that he meant he knew he'd be coming back again in this life. EETAH! No, Nora was his wife, another human Viper Jock who got killed in the temple when the cylons shot it up after discovering weapons were hidden there. He was saying he was gonna be with HER soon. He'd previously expressed a desire to have nothing to do with the Resistance because he had a wife and they were trying for a child. Here are the links for all ten webisodes, starting with Webisode One. Gives backstory on Duck, Nora, and Jammer. Other webisodes are listed to the right of the first one. Give the page a bit of time to load: it's really graphics-heavy.
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Post by Karen on Oct 14, 2006 13:13:28 GMT -5
Also on the rewatch, what Duck said right before he blew himself up has me convinced he is also a Cylon. I caught it the first time, but forgot. He said "See you soon, Nora." to the Lucy Lawless number. Now, I suppose it could mean that he meant 'see you in the afterlife', but it could also mean that he meant he knew he'd be coming back again in this life. EETAH! No, Nora was his wife, another human Viper Jock who got killed in the temple when the cylons shot it up after discovering weapons were hidden there. He was saying he was gonna be with HER soon. He'd previously expressed a desire to have nothing to do with the Resistance because he had a wife and they were trying for a child. Here are the links for all ten webisodes, starting with Webisode One. Gives backstory on Duck, Nora, and Jammer. Other webisodes are listed to the right of the first one. Give the page a bit of time to load: it's really graphics-heavy. Ah, thanks! That explains a lot. I thought the name was off. ETA: What also got me thinking that he might be a Cylon was the way the bullethead he met outside the building kind of paused and blocked his way and then turned his head and let him go.
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Post by leftylady on Oct 14, 2006 15:39:09 GMT -5
I'll put in my vote for old themes done in original ways. The value is in the creative spin.
It's because the themes are so relevant to current world concerns. Art reflects what's going on in the public's minds. During the Cold War with atomic apocalypse a constant threat, we had all sorts of doomsday movies/books. Now we worry about what's going on in Iraq, Afghanistan and Gitmo.
Here in just the space of one week we have not only BSG in prisoner/guard situations, but also VM's Logan and Wallace, and Lost's Jack/Kate/Sawyer, and all in different manners. Just compare and contrast the darkness of Tigh/Brother Cavil's cell interview with the creepy but mysterious Jack/Ben encounter. And don't forget the humor in Logan's prison break.
leftylady, who loves the good story anyway it's told with skill
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