Who are the Final Five?

[Rachael]

Okay - speculations, reasoning - NO SPOILERS!

Seriously. You spoil us for this, and I will hunt you down and remove your spine one vertebra at a time.

But anything else - who are they, who AREN'T they...all goes here.

[Rachael]

I'll start:

I'm gonna go with my hunch that Baltar isn't a double bluff, and he's really NOT a Cylon.

The obvious choices (the ones they want us to wonder about) are Starbuck and Gaeta. Starbuck, maybe...Gaeta, I think they've got something else in mind for him.

As I posted in the ep thread, I think that the Chief and Cally are off the list, mostly because they successfully reproduced (not the defining characteristic, I know, but I think two Cybrids are unlikely). And I think that Lee is unlikely because there are existing humans who remember his childhood.

As for who ARE Cylons? I have no frakking idea, but I'd love to think Madame President is one.

[Onjel]

I'd love to think Madame President is one too. I don't think Admiral Adama is one, but I'm still up in the air about Baltar. Gaeta's freak-out last night has me wondering about him, as was intended, and Starbuck has always been a question mark for me. There's always Dee, whose very name suggests a duality that might exist.

[jeff]

Well I posted in the other thread as well, Madam Presidents look and statement about being "one of us" just seemed out of place to me, this is coming from a newbie with a fresh prespective.

I do not know enough about the other characters to comment on them, although Starbucks "Higher Purpose" is interesting, but as of now I am going with a no on her, I am really interested in what Baltar said to Gaeta to make him loose it like that.

[Shan]

Deanna's apology to one of the Final Five in the previous episode ("I'm sorry, I had no idea") made me think of who she herself would feel the need to tender an apology to. The only one I could think of was the guy in Hero, the one she'd kept in a cage all that time.

[Moscow Watcher]

Some thoughts.

Kara Thrace. Her subconsciousness has pictures that are found in newly-discovered temple. Leoben's obsession with her, his knowledge of her childhood (which could be false memories programmed into her), erratic behavior not unlike Sharon Valerii in season 1. And prophecies. Very obvious. Maybe even too obvious. Still, the prime suspect.

Dualla. A woman with a name that suggests her duality. A Mary-Sue of the last episodes. And her first name, if you check the imdb, is Anastasia. A Russian tzarevna, whose doppelgangers appeared after her death. Hmm. I don't know. A suspect, definitely.

Gaius Balthar. If we look at the situation in "out-of-the box" way, he's the one. He's a creator, the demiurg. And he's quickly turns into show's prime martyr. But if we apply RL logic and common sense, it's impossible. He worked in top secret governmental projects, the governmental security had to check his past very thoroughly. But could we apply RL logic to a TV show? Then again, D'Anna could apologize to him because she tortured him. A suspect.

The same with Laura Roslyn. From dramatic standpoint it could be a great development. But it doesn't hold if we regard the situation from RL POV. OTOH, Hera's blood cured her. A suspect.

Gaeta. I read a lot of specs based on his outburst during Baltar's interrogation. But they worked together for many months in a very messy situation and, obviously, they know a lot of dirty secrets about each other. So, Balthar could provoke him into murderous rage even without saying some "trigger" word. Still, a suspect.

Commander Adama... Those who've seen the full version of Blade Runner, remember how Edward James Olmos's characters explains (in a very peculiar way) to Harrison Ford's character that he (Ford) is a cylon. Or, as they're called in the movie, a replicant. I believe Moore and Eick are heavily influenced by this film. Could they "bookend" it by making Olmos' character a cylon?
So... I have some small post-modernist suspicion in his regard.

[Onjel]

moscowwatcher said:

Some thoughts.

Kara Thrace. Her subconsciousness has pictures that are found in newly-discovered temple. Leoben's obsession with her, his knowledge of her childhood (which could be false memories programmed into her), erratic behavior not unlike Sharon Valerii in season 1. And prophecies. Very obvious. Maybe even too obvious. Still, the prime suspect.

Dualla. A woman with a name that suggests her duality. A Mary-Sue of the last episodes. And her first name, if you check the imdb, is Anastasia. A Russian tzarevna, whose doppelgangers appeared after her death. Hmm. I don't know. A suspect, definitely.

Gaius Balthar. If we look at the situation in "out-of-the box" way, he's the one. He's a creator, the demiurg. And he's quickly turns into show's prime martyr. But if we apply RL logic and common sense, it's impossible. He worked in top secret governmental projects, the governmental security had to check his past very thoroughly. But could we apply RL logic to a TV show? Then again, D'Anna could apologize to him because she tortured him. A suspect.

The same with Laura Roslyn. From dramatic standpoint it could be a great development. But it doesn't hold if we regard the situation from RL POV. OTOH, Hera's blood cured her. A suspect.

Gaeta. I read a lot of specs based on his outburst during Baltar's interrogation. But they worked together for many months in a very messy situation and, obviously, they know a lot of dirty secrets about each other. So, Balthar could provoke him into murderous rage even without saying some "trigger" word. Still, a suspect.

Commander Adama... Those who've seen the full version of Blade Runner, remember how Edward James Olmos's characters explains (in a very peculiar way) to Harrison Ford's character that he (Ford) is a cylon. Or, as they're called in the movie, a replicant. I believe Moore and Eick are heavily influenced by this film. Could they "bookend" it by making Olmos' character a cylon?
So... I have some small post-modernist suspicion in his regard.

*nods* for your astute analysis, MW!

[Rachael]

moscowwatcher said:

Some thoughts.

Kara Thrace. Her subconsciousness has pictures that are found in newly-discovered temple. Leoben's obsession with her, his knowledge of her childhood (which could be false memories programmed into her), erratic behavior not unlike Sharon Valerii in season 1. And prophecies. Very obvious. Maybe even too obvious. Still, the prime suspect.

Dualla. A woman with a name that suggests her duality. A Mary-Sue of the last episodes. And her first name, if you check the imdb, is Anastasia. A Russian tzarevna, whose doppelgangers appeared after her death. Hmm. I don't know. A suspect, definitely.

Gaius Balthar. If we look at the situation in "out-of-the box" way, he's the one. He's a creator, the demiurg. And he's quickly turns into show's prime martyr. But if we apply RL logic and common sense, it's impossible. He worked in top secret governmental projects, the governmental security had to check his past very thoroughly. But could we apply RL logic to a TV show? Then again, D'Anna could apologize to him because she tortured him. A suspect.

The same with Laura Roslyn. From dramatic standpoint it could be a great development. But it doesn't hold if we regard the situation from RL POV. OTOH, Hera's blood cured her. A suspect.

Gaeta. I read a lot of specs based on his outburst during Baltar's interrogation. But they worked together for many months in a very messy situation and, obviously, they know a lot of dirty secrets about each other. So, Balthar could provoke him into murderous rage even without saying some "trigger" word. Still, a suspect.

Commander Adama... Those who've seen the full version of Blade Runner, remember how Edward James Olmos's characters explains (in a very peculiar way) to Harrison Ford's character that he (Ford) is a cylon. Or, as they're called in the movie, a replicant. I believe Moore and Eick are heavily influenced by this film. Could they "bookend" it by making Olmos' character a cylon?
So... I have some small post-modernist suspicion in his regard.

I think that even the top ranks of human society could have been infiltrated by Cylons - it all depends on how they're doing the insertion. Could be that the Cylons are fully capable of creating backstory - although creating people who knew someone as a child is difficult...but then, they could conceivable replace "real" people who already have backgrounds with Cylon duplicates. You'd need to implant memories, then, though.

Here's a creepy thought - what if the Final Five are models who have a childhood phase? The real deep-cover agents - have been with humans since they were "born". That'd open up Lee for speculation, too.

[Shan]

rachael said:

moscowwatcher said:

Some thoughts.

Kara Thrace. Her subconsciousness has pictures that are found in newly-discovered temple. Leoben's obsession with her, his knowledge of her childhood (which could be false memories programmed into her), erratic behavior not unlike Sharon Valerii in season 1. And prophecies. Very obvious. Maybe even too obvious. Still, the prime suspect.

Dualla. A woman with a name that suggests her duality. A Mary-Sue of the last episodes. And her first name, if you check the imdb, is Anastasia. A Russian tzarevna, whose doppelgangers appeared after her death. Hmm. I don't know. A suspect, definitely.

Gaius Balthar. If we look at the situation in "out-of-the box" way, he's the one. He's a creator, the demiurg. And he's quickly turns into show's prime martyr. But if we apply RL logic and common sense, it's impossible. He worked in top secret governmental projects, the governmental security had to check his past very thoroughly. But could we apply RL logic to a TV show? Then again, D'Anna could apologize to him because she tortured him. A suspect.

The same with Laura Roslyn. From dramatic standpoint it could be a great development. But it doesn't hold if we regard the situation from RL POV. OTOH, Hera's blood cured her. A suspect.

Gaeta. I read a lot of specs based on his outburst during Baltar's interrogation. But they worked together for many months in a very messy situation and, obviously, they know a lot of dirty secrets about each other. So, Balthar could provoke him into murderous rage even without saying some "trigger" word. Still, a suspect.

Commander Adama... Those who've seen the full version of Blade Runner, remember how Edward James Olmos's characters explains (in a very peculiar way) to Harrison Ford's character that he (Ford) is a cylon. Or, as they're called in the movie, a replicant. I believe Moore and Eick are heavily influenced by this film. Could they "bookend" it by making Olmos' character a cylon?
So... I have some small post-modernist suspicion in his regard.

I think that even the top ranks of human society could have been infiltrated by Cylons - it all depends on how they're doing the insertion. Could be that the Cylons are fully capable of creating backstory - although creating people who knew someone as a child is difficult...but then, they could conceivable replace "real" people who already have backgrounds with Cylon duplicates. You'd need to implant memories, then, though.

Here's a creepy thought - what if the Final Five are models who have a childhood phase? The real deep-cover agents - have been with humans since they were "born". That'd open up Lee for speculation, too.

You're evil. I hate you.

Because...that could be ANYBODY.

[Rachael]

shanno said:

rachael said:

I think that even the top ranks of human society could have been infiltrated by Cylons - it all depends on how they're doing the insertion. Could be that the Cylons are fully capable of creating backstory - although creating people who knew someone as a child is difficult...but then, they could conceivable replace "real" people who already have backgrounds with Cylon duplicates. You'd need to implant memories, then, though.

Here's a creepy thought - what if the Final Five are models who have a childhood phase? The real deep-cover agents - have been with humans since they were "born". That'd open up Lee for speculation, too.

You're evil. I hate you.

Because...that could be ANYBODY.

If it makes you feel any better, I don't think they're gonna do that. I think the rules will remain the same - otherwise the mystery isn't fair to the audience.

It's just that they have an "out" - there's clearly something special about the Final Five. No one, not even the other Cylons, know who they are. That implies some difference. What if it's not entirely true that Cylons can't have children, for example?

Brain gonna explode.

[Karen]

shanno said:

Deanna's apology to one of the Final Five in the previous episode ("I'm sorry, I had no idea") made me think of who she herself would feel the need to tender an apology to. The only one I could think of was the guy in Hero, the one she'd kept in a cage all that time.

Oh - that's an interesting theory. And it could explain why he survived.

It could've been a test by the Cylon 'god'.

[Spaced Out Looney]

People have suspected Gaeta all along, but I've never really put much thought on it, because the show has consistently given us all the information while the characters are in the dark. We always learn things before the other characters catch on. But Gaeta was a little suspicious in TABFAYW, both in waking up and getting to the cell just in time to save Baltar, and in exploding when Baltar later whispered in his ear.

The "he's one of us" speculation perhaps not referring to humans but the Final Five (or some other group, maybe) is intriguing.

I think it may be possible that the Dixon character is one. He was featured significantly, but we know so little about him that he very well maybe.

I'd like to think we haven't met any of them yet, but D'Anna's line where she seems to recognize one of them strongly suggests that at least one of them is some one we know.

[Karen]

Here's my new theory.

The final 5 cylons are the 'humans' that we've seen hook up in one way or another with a Cylon.

Tyrol (although this might be a mislead, because Sharon thought she was human at the time they were together)

Kara

Helo

Baltar

Ellen

[Shan]

Since the Cylons are capable of downloading from the dead body and uploading to the new one, and therefore also capable of doing the "boxing" (saving her memories and thereby her personhood) that they did of Deanna...I think it should be possible for them to somehow "scan" whatever they've boxed of Deanna and find out themselve who the Final Five are. IF, that is, Deanna actually did somehow see them and isn't just completely whacked.

[Karen]

karen said:

Here's my new theory.

The final 5 cylons are the 'humans' that we've seen hook up in one way or another with a Cylon.

Tyrol (although this might be a mislead, because Sharon thought she was human at the time they were together)

Kara

Helo

Baltar

Ellen

Well, I was one (and possibly two) for five.

So - the Glowey-hooded 5 all look like the humans we've come to know as Tyrol, Tigh, Tory and Sam.

The fifth one is either (possibly) Kara or Roslin.

What do they all have in common, if anything?

They all seemed to take Tigh's lead. Is that because he is the strongest of the Cylons?

What exactly have they been programmed to do?

What is their plan?