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Post by Sue on Jul 8, 2009 11:13:44 GMT -5
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Jul 8, 2009 15:47:34 GMT -5
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Post by Vlad on Jul 13, 2009 0:08:11 GMT -5
Yeah. Robert McNamera overall most certainly had a hugely greater impact on the world as we know it than MJ. And, I suppose the memorial service is no place for someone to speak up and say "the emperor has no clothes" but I kind of hope some of the [black] celebrities, or for heaven's sake the "reporters," will do so down the line. On the other hand, the deaths' of Elvis and John Lennon were comparably over the top in the weeping, wailing, renting of garments and gnashing of teeth. There just wasn't so MUCH darn media on 500 channels, 24/7 to drive us nuts. Agreed, but neither Elvis or Lennon were held up as the single individuals who changed a whole civilization.Well, maybe Lennon a smidge, but I think that might have been a bit more deserved. He and the Beatles were truly a part of the 60's/70's cultural generation, and had way more affect on today's society's ideas and ideals, not to mention influencing modern music than Michael Jackson ever will. Also the dichotomy of his dying at hte hands of a nut vs. what appears to be a drug related death for MJ at this time. Lennon had battled his own demons all his life, including depression and drug abuse, but went out on top having apparently managed to keep them at bay. Jackson went out, at best, on the cusp of a "possible comeback," most likely by his own hand. That being said, I feel sorry for the friends and family of Jackson for their loss and for the man himself, even if the stories about his proclivities with children are true. He was an abused child that grew to be a sick man living in a sick environment and never really had a chance. Edited to add: The above is all IMO, of course. Your milage may vary and actual results may differ. Vlad
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Post by Vlad on Jul 13, 2009 0:55:01 GMT -5
My two cents or rambling thoughts regarding Liz's issues with her parents about discussing politics/environmentalism etc. This is liable to wander way off track and left and right. Bear with me.... I think I am going somewhere with this but even as I write, I am not sure where I am going to wind up. Shan and I share a lot of base ground on issues. One of the more interesting things I/we have discovered is that while our final outcome may be similar, our paths to that enlightenment often are quite different, be it emotionally, rationally or some combination thereof. A lot of times it appears to be idealism vs. pragmatism. I'll leave it up to you all to decide which person falls on which side of that line most often. One of hte best things we manage to do most of the time (because, really, it's hard for me to think of any real arguments we've had, even while under the influence of one too many glasses of alcohol ) is to LISTEN to each other. To try and learn how each other thinks by what they say or what each's argument is. Listening helps one form their conversation on any topic. Listen to a question... not for jsut hte question, but hte line of thinking that inspires it. Explore that line of thinking. Don't be argumentative, instead search for parrallels in other things the person thinks that are glaringly different. Use examples of these other stances. Try to get hte person to think through their argument. And the whole goal here? Not to win some debate. Not to prove your thoughts are right and theirs are faulty. The goal here is to understand how hte other person thinks better. The goal is to get htem to understand how you think better. Be open to the same criticism of your own ideas. Be willing to go down thoughtful paths on other topics and see if you, yourself aren't jumping to conclusions, but have indeed made a valid choice after examining hte data. And it's okay to finally say "You know, I can't back it all up and I don't feel liek doing all the research, I do just feel this way. It's what my gut says. But only after at least examining it and having a real discussion on it. The rules as I see them: Always, ALWAYS respect the other person's point of view. Not everyone can logically explain their emotional views on things, how they have evolved or even how it all interconnects on any particular issue. Don't ever diss another's religion unless they themselves demonstrate that they have their own issues with it's logic. Don't tell a person they are wrong; instead try to open a discourse to have them explain why they think like they do. If a person is talking to a person they think is listening, not judging them, they will be more likely to self-examine their own ideas It's okay to play devil's advocate, provided you announce that you are doing so. Otherwise you come off as jsut someone who wants to argue. Agree with the person you are discussing with liberally whenever you can. You can always find some common ground somewhere. The more positive you can be about a person's ideas, the more likely they are going to listen to you talk about the points where you disagree. Remember, if you have never walked away from a discussion on something controversial with this person without having your own views or values either changed or at least clouded up, then how can you possibly expect to get your own points across to them. If you aren't open enough to admit you may be wrong or that there may be more than one "right", then the problem lies as much with you as the other person. Okay, reading back over this, I indeed rambled. One final point, more specifically related to Liz's issues. Don't kid yourself. You want to change your parents views into something more in align with your own self-learned ones. It's only natural. There's nothing wrong with it. The point is what so many other's have said here: at a certain point you have to accept they are very unlikely to ever change and you will have to be the bigger person in the equation. No, you don't have to change your own opinions for their sake, but you can decide to table those types of discussions on your part. Don't bring them up. If they bring them up, succinctly state your opinion and then state "But, we've been over this a billion times and you and I jsut don't agree. But that's okay. We are probalby both wrong on a lot of things. I will continue to do XYZ and you continue to do 1,2 and 3 and in the end, we'll probalby balance everything out. 'Cause, family, unless it's horribly dysfunctional (and I want to emphasize "horribly" here, 'cause what family isn't to some degree?) is massively important and no one has ever come from one that is in total agreement on everything, or even on most things. Yet they have managed to be the preferred societal mainstay for us human being for a very long time, whether you think that's 7,000 years or 70 million. There's gotta be something good about them. Vlad
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Post by Karen on Jul 13, 2009 9:44:33 GMT -5
Liz, I feel for you. Arguing with people who you know are not going to see any validity in your opinion if it differs from theirs, is a sure fire way to make yourself feel a bit crazy. There is a guy I work with who ALWAYS takes the opposite of my viewpoint - no matter the subject. And while I will listen and sometimes agree with the points he makes, he NEVER sees my point of view, to the point where he will call me nuts for even thinking the way I do. I figure that the louder he gets during an argument, and especially when the name-calling starts, that I have won, because people like that, when they start to see your point, will shout you down so that you can't make it. Anyway, I don't feel Liz is trying to make her parents change their mind as much as she is trying to get them to admit that her views are valid. Not gonna happen, from what you've told us. That doesn't mean that your views aren't valid, though. Just that for some reason your parents can't budge an inch - probably because their suppositions are built on a house of cards and if they admit to themselves that things aren't so black and white as they see it, that they would have to concede that they are wrong in a lot of their beliefs. And that would be hard for them to take. I rarely argue with my co-worker anymore, because I like him and don't want to end up in a fist fight. He tries to bait me, but I've learned to let it go - because what point in a lively debate - which I always feel is fun - when there is no give and take - you can learn a lot if you open yourself up to it. Too bad your parents can't see the benefit from hearing your point of view with an open mind. I have one son whose politics are a bit radical, but when we 'argue', we never end up in a shouting match because there is mutual respect there - plus, he knows his stuff forwards and backwards, and I don't. You probably know you won't change the way your parents interact with you. Hopefully, you will find some like-minded people who will validate your beliefs. I like the way you think!
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 13, 2009 13:33:17 GMT -5
Liz, I feel for you. Arguing with people who you know are not going to see any validity in your opinion if it differs from theirs, is a sure fire way to make yourself feel a bit crazy. There is a guy I work with who ALWAYS takes the opposite of my viewpoint - no matter the subject. And while I will listen and sometimes agree with the points he makes, he NEVER sees my point of view, to the point where he will call me nuts for even thinking the way I do. I figure that the louder he gets during an argument, and especially when the name-calling starts, that I have won, because people like that, when they start to see your point, will shout you down so that you can't make it. Anyway, I don't feel Liz is trying to make her parents change their mind as much as she is trying to get them to admit that her views are valid. Not gonna happen, from what you've told us. That doesn't mean that your views aren't valid, though. Just that for some reason your parents can't budge an inch - probably because their suppositions are built on a house of cards and if they admit to themselves that things aren't so black and white as they see it, that they would have to concede that they are wrong in a lot of their beliefs. And that would be hard for them to take. I rarely argue with my co-worker anymore, because I like him and don't want to end up in a fist fight. He tries to bait me, but I've learned to let it go - because what point in a lively debate - which I always feel is fun - when there is no give and take - you can learn a lot if you open yourself up to it. Too bad your parents can't see the benefit from hearing your point of view with an open mind. I have one son whose politics are a bit radical, but when we 'argue', we never end up in a shouting match because there is mutual respect there - plus, he knows his stuff forwards and backwards, and I don't. You probably know you won't change the way your parents interact with you. Hopefully, you will find some like-minded people who will validate your beliefs. I like the way you think! *Nods* There's a lot of that going on between us (and they've never been about validation wrt anything), so I've emotionally distanced myself from them and tried to avoid discussing politics with them for that very reason. I only brought up the Peak Oil issue because it's almost never mentioned by anyone in the mainstream media and I think there's a distinct possibility that it could become really important in the next 4-7 years, when I will have absolutely no time to discuss it with them. I wanted them at the very least to have heard of it. And they reacted almost like I had told them that they had a terminal illness that was currently asymptomatic (or only mildly symptomatic), so I know that I hit a really sensitive spot and consider our discussion fairly productive. That's mean, I know, but I'm glad that I did it. While I don't want to change their mind per se, I am hoping that, now that they are aware, that they might eventually become part of the conversation. Among the people who are concerned about it, there is a lot of discussion going on, so adding more voices to the conversation is a good thing, I think. Things might also percolate in the back of their minds and heighten their awareness of all issues fossil fuel related. There's a chance that my dad might become obsessively curious about the issue (particularly since he's way more interested in economics than I am) and start reading about it, and my mom will eventually tell me that they've always been concerned about this issue, even before I was. On the other hand, there's also a chance that they will just continue on refusing to take the issue seriously and refuse to believe that there is a peak or that it's occurred (whenever it occurs, I mean) or that it has anything to do with anything, even if everybody else around them has reached a consensus. It's a toss up, really. For the rest, I find it a little scary, but mostly want them to live out the rest of their lives comfortably, and part of that is just letting them be secure in their word view, even if I think that it's off base. I'm not bringing up Peak Oil again unless they mention it first, but I am going to try to make sure that they have access to the resources that they might need. And prepare to manage their care when the time comes, (no matter what the state of the world is,) because apparently that's the daughter's duty or something.
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Post by Rachael on Jul 15, 2009 18:40:56 GMT -5
Can I just point out that batshit-crazy Jeff Sessions was himself once rejected by this exact committee for a position on the Federal bench because of ACTUAL racist statements he's made? I assume he's who Anne meant on the other thread, but I could be wrong. At any rate, he's an asshole, and frankly, when someone's going to this level of mental strain to paint someone as a racist, it says more about HIM than it does about HER.
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Post by Rachael on Jul 15, 2009 18:47:18 GMT -5
Also, I honestly think he's hoping she'll break down and scream "Death to Whitey!" or some such thing.
The part where she schooled him on the definition of "fundamental right" as defined by the USSC was fun to listen to.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jul 16, 2009 0:39:03 GMT -5
Can I just point out that batshit-crazy Jeff Sessions was himself once rejected by this exact committee for a position on the Federal bench because of ACTUAL racist statements he's made? I assume he's who Anne meant on the other thread, but I could be wrong. At any rate, he's an asshole, and frankly, when someone's going to this level of mental strain to paint someone as a racist, it says more about HIM than it does about HER. Was he the one who did the Ricky Ricardo imitation? Because that was about as disgusting as anything I've seen in a congressional hearing. JUlia, gotten bits and pieces of it; been outside a lot today
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Post by Rachael on Jul 16, 2009 8:30:48 GMT -5
Can I just point out that batshit-crazy Jeff Sessions was himself once rejected by this exact committee for a position on the Federal bench because of ACTUAL racist statements he's made? I assume he's who Anne meant on the other thread, but I could be wrong. At any rate, he's an asshole, and frankly, when someone's going to this level of mental strain to paint someone as a racist, it says more about HIM than it does about HER. Was he the one who did the Ricky Ricardo imitation? Because that was about as disgusting as anything I've seen in a congressional hearing. JUlia, gotten bits and pieces of it; been outside a lot today Actually, I think that was Coburn. He's the lovely pro-life OB/GYN who seems to have stopped learning anything about medicine in the 1950's. I always wonder if the women in his practice are give ether during delivery. Wouldn't you LOVE to have an anti-abortion OB when you find out that your baby is Trisomy 18? Ugh.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jul 16, 2009 8:49:13 GMT -5
Can I just point out that batshit-crazy Jeff Sessions was himself once rejected by this exact committee for a position on the Federal bench because of ACTUAL racist statements he's made? I assume he's who Anne meant on the other thread, but I could be wrong. At any rate, he's an asshole, and frankly, when someone's going to this level of mental strain to paint someone as a racist, it says more about HIM than it does about HER. Sessions is one of the several I meant, all white, all male, all Republican (since we're in the safe corner of the Thrall Room and all). Coburn was the one evoking Ricky Ricardo. He also started a question with "Imagine I'm 38 weeks pregnant". Yes. Imagine that, Mr Senator. There was also Orrin Hatch on day 2, and the nunchuck discussion. So much crazy, so little brain to remember it all... Although Sessions is definitely the standout crazy in the mob, I must say.
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Post by Rachael on Jul 16, 2009 9:13:16 GMT -5
Can I just point out that batshit-crazy Jeff Sessions was himself once rejected by this exact committee for a position on the Federal bench because of ACTUAL racist statements he's made? I assume he's who Anne meant on the other thread, but I could be wrong. At any rate, he's an asshole, and frankly, when someone's going to this level of mental strain to paint someone as a racist, it says more about HIM than it does about HER. Sessions is one of the several I meant, all white, all male, all Republican (since we're in the safe corner of the Thrall Room and all). Coburn was the one evoking Ricky Ricardo. He also started a question with "Imagine I'm 38 weeks pregnant". Yes. Imagine that, Mr Senator. There was also Orrin Hatch on day 2, and the nunchuck discussion. So much crazy, so little brain to remember it all... Although Sessions is definitely the standout crazy in the mob, I must say. I was particularly incensed that he chose 38 weeks. So, full-term, viable infant, Senator? How many of THOSE abortions have you really seen?
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Post by Rachael on Jul 16, 2009 13:01:14 GMT -5
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 16, 2009 20:35:25 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing that - excellent article. I do believe Carter was one of the brightest presidents we've ever had - great thinker, writer, and humanitarian.
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Post by Squeemonster on Jul 17, 2009 15:16:42 GMT -5
Can I just point out that batshit-crazy Jeff Sessions was himself once rejected by this exact committee for a position on the Federal bench because of ACTUAL racist statements he's made? I assume he's who Anne meant on the other thread, but I could be wrong. At any rate, he's an asshole, and frankly, when someone's going to this level of mental strain to paint someone as a racist, it says more about HIM than it does about HER. *sigh* Yeah, to say he's a racist jackass is really kind of an insult to racist jackasses. He makes me cringe every time I see him on the news. It scares the crap out of me that he's got power around here.
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