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Post by artemis on Mar 21, 2009 11:29:14 GMT -5
"I played a very bad hand very well." "...there is a difference." i loved those two lines. i thought that was a great encapsulation of the character. i'm so curious about why echo (or an imprint?) felt on some level that it was important to finish the fantasy, especially since she was supposed to have been wiped of the rebecca imprint a whole job previously...
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Post by artemis on Mar 21, 2009 11:32:55 GMT -5
Then I wavered for a minute, with DeWitt sending him to kill her, but the absolute contempt she held him in for raping her children (for that's what he was doing: I think she draws a strong distinction between the imprinted personalities and the resting childlike state of the Actives) i agree - i definitely think she draws that sort of distinction and that, in a way, she's made herself out in her mind to be the house mother who is protecting the poor helpless children. that was a great line, pretty subtle for her! i also wondered if it might be someone working in conjunction with boyd - if maybe he distracted topher at that moment so that the other person could alter the imprint. but this is joss, so who knows, it could be anybody!
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Post by artemis on Mar 21, 2009 11:34:41 GMT -5
primarily with Mellie (who spoilers knew was originally cast as November) what do you mean by this? i'm missing something...
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Mar 21, 2009 12:06:30 GMT -5
Ha! "That could be sweet for some guys." And she looks at him in a whole new light. It's oddly fascinating hearing him talk about how they build a personality to fit what they need. I mean, yes, creepy, and yet also fascinating. Wonder why you're not dead? Gonna erase me? Put me in the attic? You're disgusting! And he's right about how they're doing the same thing. Which makes them both horrible, yes? "We are in the business of using people. The question is, what is the best use for someone like you?" O.M.G. They want to use him . . . to attack the neighbor. Rape and kill her?! OMG!! This is a nice moment between these two. And she is standing in for the audience now, isn't she? Just stating straightforwardly that he should find out about hte dollhouse, because what they're doing is wrong. Oy. And now here's the plan. Send the icky guy to kill her, send Echo to kill him. I've been suspecting Mellie as a Doll for a while now. When DeWitt sent Sierra's former handler out to kill her, after looking at the surveilance in her apartment, I was almost certain, for why would they have surveilance on her apartment unless she worked for them? They couldn't be certain that Ballard would fall for her unless they were working on it. The logical place to have surveilance on him was his apartment. Then I wavered for a minute, with DeWitt sending him to kill her, but the absolute contempt she held him in for raping her children (for that's what he was doing: I think she draws a strong distinction between the imprinted personalities and the resting childlike state of the Actives) made me think she was sending him out to die a horrible and poetic death. Which she confirmed later: "Not without its poetry" Now I wonder who the inside man is. Doc Saunders? Topher's prentice? Who? I had this sinking feeling that it's Topher, last night, which would be terrible as I'm really attached to my original perception of him as a Warren-level sociopath. But wouldn't that be just like Joss?. Julia, but him, or the Reid-Diamond-character-whose-name-refuses-to-stick-in-my-brain.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Mar 21, 2009 12:09:24 GMT -5
Triggers (such as "Are you ready for your treatment?" and "Do you trust me?") can be given auditorily: They are just key phrases that trigger a sequence of programmed behaviors or responses. It's the wipe that Echo went through as Taffy that was supposed to be impossible. She wasn't just triggered or untriggered, or anything, but put back to the resting Doll state. Got it. I missed the distinction between triggers and imprints/wipes. The internet is just bursting with Joss fans all squeeing and speculating and praying for good news in the ratings. I've read spec about every single character being the "inside man" (including Topher and DeWitt) but the most intriguing to me was that there is no inside man and the message was a plant from DeWitt, since its primary message was for Ballard to back off. If true she is playing a very deep game and is manipulating Ballard in multiple ways, primarily with Mellie (who spoilers knew was originally cast as November) but also now with Echo and information/disinformation. I'm thinking they want to push him into a corner so they can recruit (are they really all volunteers?) or force him into a doll contract. He has all the so many "innate" skills they can access through different imprints. Otherwise, why not have killed him outright? Oh, now that's just really, really scary, and right in line with the man who did, after all, come up with Wolfram and Hart. Julia, Paul as Angel?
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Post by Rachael on Mar 21, 2009 13:12:46 GMT -5
So, on Joss and characterization - give the man five eps, and you know his characters pretty well.
To wit: I knew something awful was gonna happen to evil handler man on his "assassination" assignment. Not because I didn't think DeWitt is capable of sending a man out to murder a witness, because she clearly is...but because I knew she was so angry that he wasn't making it out of the episode alive. I was guessing the police turning up to shoot him, but this was way better.
And I do think that if she was going to have an innocent murdered, she'd go about it in a cleaner way. Not by sending a proven untrustworthy handler to her apartment.
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Post by KMInfinity on Mar 21, 2009 13:53:34 GMT -5
primarily with Mellie (who spoilers knew was originally cast as November) what do you mean by this? i'm missing something... I have been trying to remain (mostly) unspoiled so I may be reading between the lines incorrectly.... but apparently there was some casting spoiler with Miracle Laurie as "November" and when people realized the dolls were given military names, people questioned Joss, who said that due to Fox rewrites the character had been eliminated but ML kept for a different role. So even before the show, spoiled souls suspected she was still an Active. If someone who is spoiled knows the actual story?
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Post by KMInfinity on Mar 21, 2009 14:01:49 GMT -5
Got it. I missed the distinction between triggers and imprints/wipes. The internet is just bursting with Joss fans all squeeing and speculating and praying for good news in the ratings. I've read spec about every single character being the "inside man" (including Topher and DeWitt) but the most intriguing to me was that there is no inside man and the message was a plant from DeWitt, since its primary message was for Ballard to back off. If true she is playing a very deep game and is manipulating Ballard in multiple ways, primarily with Mellie (who spoilers knew was originally cast as November) but also now with Echo and information/disinformation. I'm thinking they want to push him into a corner so they can recruit (are they really all volunteers?) or force him into a doll contract. He has all the so many "innate" skills they can access through different imprints. Otherwise, why not have killed him outright? Oh, now that's just really, really scary, and right in line with the man who did, after all, come up with Wolfram and Hart. Julia, Paul as Angel? The more I think about this, the more I like it, because otherwise we could have Ballard replaying The Fugitive where he spends the next five years (may it be so) trying to stop the Dollhouse. Maybe that's Joss's plan but I'm not sure that's effective. It makes sense to have some twist with Ballard and the Dollhouse. In a comparison with Angel, he was out there "helping the helpless." His primary mission was not to stop W&H (at least at first, and some debated whether it ever should have been) but to make a difference one soul at a time. Ironically, bringing Ballard into the Dollhouse rather than chasing the Dollhouse as an outsider would make more sense than having Angel as CEO of W&H. I'm seeing lots and lots of parallels to Angel.
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Post by leftylady on Mar 21, 2009 14:37:44 GMT -5
Wow!!! I feel smacked in the head. This is full-out pull out the stops Joss at his best. Everything has a totally different feel and tone. Character and more character…. Fast paced and super stunt work for fight scenes (like AtS was a fight upgrade for Spike over BtVS) And full of little Jossian touches…. “Damsel in Distress:” turns tables and saves herself – same motif, different treatment. “Bouncy the Rat” - HEEEE. Silly names like “Fruity Oaty Bars” Oh and the interview comment about “telling you what to buy” like the FOB mind control commercial The Rick/Dick exchange “Neighborliness” & “I don’t think I have any sugar left” Joel as Joss’ Everyman become successful. ED - :”Porn. My husband does porn!” too funny…. “Moral-spankitude” The garbled internet program names…… I’m loving DeWitt more and more…. Cross between lady watcher and Laila? “They’re ALL broken.” - how true Our suspicions of neighbor as active on target – but not DeWitt’s part or Melli( )’s mission whatever that is. Who corrupted Echo’s implant program to warn Ballard? Topher? Topher’s Gopher? Did he send her out for lunch to do it himself? And promise of more messages – but only maybe in same “body” – message detached from person. leftylady, maybe more when my head stops spinning and I get a chance to read others' thoughts.....
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Post by leftylady on Mar 21, 2009 14:44:47 GMT -5
Oh, now that's just really, really scary, and right in line with the man who did, after all, come up with Wolfram and Hart. Julia, Paul as Angel? The more I think about this, the more I like it, because otherwise we could have Ballard replaying The Fugitive where he spends the next five years (may it be so) trying to stop the Dollhouse. Maybe that's Joss's plan but I'm not sure that's effective. It makes sense to have some twist with Ballard and the Dollhouse. In a comparison with Angel, he was out there "helping the helpless." His primary mission was not to stop W&H (at least at first, and some debated whether it ever should have been) but to make a difference one soul at a time. Ironically, bringing Ballard into the Dollhouse rather than chasing the Dollhouse as an outsider would make more sense than having Angel as CEO of W&H. I'm seeing lots and lots of parallels to Angel. My thought too. Dollhouses all over the world, in control of everything important. Dollhouse = Wolfram & Hart DH managers = Senior Partners. Again, same motifs - different treatment. Now I hope the word spreads..... leftylady - who hearts Joss more than before.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Mar 21, 2009 14:47:37 GMT -5
Also "I live to serve...lunch"
Topher's assistant is a weak link, eh?
Julia, also, how are the science/tech people recruited, and to what extent are they Dolls?
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Post by KMInfinity on Mar 21, 2009 17:27:51 GMT -5
Aalso, how are the science/tech people recruited, and to what extent are they Dolls? Yes! And now Joss has to be careful that his overall themes and plots don't get overshadowed by the constant "is s/he a doll or not?" question every week. Unless......everyone really is a doll.
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Post by Sue on Mar 21, 2009 20:02:31 GMT -5
Not reading. Not looking. Was out of town, haven't seen the ep.
But Jim did. [Let me repeat: I was out of town and Jim came home and knew when and what channel and made it a point to watch.]
He sent me this in an email:
Joss rocks. Really. Headspinning fun.
He also told me: "It lived up to the hype. No, actually, it was under-hyped."
He had to be won over to Firefly, but now likes rewatching it.
He hasn't, as yet, however, asked to start watching the Buffy episodes....
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Post by Karen on Mar 22, 2009 10:10:16 GMT -5
Ah. I just realized that the neighbor who is going to get her heart broken by Mr. FBitchI looks a lot like Echo.
Hee! Echo is posing like Buffy.
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Post by Karen on Mar 22, 2009 10:34:57 GMT -5
Ah. I just realized that the neighbor who is going to get her heart broken by Mr. FBitchI looks a lot like Echo. Hee! Echo is posing like Buffy. OMGOMGOMG.. Joss is a god. That is all. I mean I know there was speculation that Millie was a doll, but the reveal? Shit....so awesome. Also loved how the handler sent to kill/hurt her realized how he had been duped. Cease to matter. It's not finished. Do you want it to be? The internet guy's dream is icky. The way Joss can make a beautiful fantasy creep you out to the nth degree - with appropriate musical accompaniment. Fantasies should never be made real. Ok - so, now we are going to have some fun.
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