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Post by Queen E on Jan 27, 2004 13:40:21 GMT -5
Or living subjected to intermittant artillary fire Giles, being the watcher of an extrordinary slayer, is constantly having his expectations shaken. His experiences with Jenny and Willow also shake his confidence in the authoritative nature of the Council of Watchers. And his Ripper period make him vulnerable to influences which the Watcher education has developed to protect against (think of the diffeerence between Giles and early Wes, not to mention the pack o'bozos in "Checkpoint"). When he does the ultimate Watcher thing and kills Ben, he is subject to conflicts that a more standard issue Watcher would shrug off. Julia, oops, lost another point I wanted to make. durn. I posted this on the main page, but here's a really interesting essay re Giles/Ben: www.slayage.tv/essays/slayage9/Marshall.htmIt's an essay entitled: Aeneas the Vampire Slayer: A Roman Model for Why Giles Kills Ben
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Post by ellie on Jan 30, 2004 2:47:46 GMT -5
Wow. Until you all started talking about it, it never occurred to me to consider the long-term effects on Giles of the events of S5-7. I feel a tad guilty, as I realize I've been used to thinking of Giles as "the grown-up", who thus doesn't need any help with his own stuff. And, as I just posted on the main board, where would he go for such help, if he wanted to? In that sense, the loss of Jenny, and then Joyce, were huge blows for Giles, too - they representing the only other adults he could conceivably have confided in. (I'm assuming that he didn't have close friends on the Council, simply because he always seemed quite a bit seperate from that culture.) Also, though - if we were meant to consider Giles' emotional state, the writers should have devoted some (ANY?) time to exploring it, the way they did with Buffy and Spike and Xander, and hell, even Anya got an episode. So there's something missing in the writing of Giles, even if he's not supposed to be himself in S7. rachael- i was always a tad disappointed that there was not more of a storyline for Joyce and giles- not so much in terms of romance although I have nothing against that- it is just that so much was hinted at in little scenes- giles mourning joyce by listening alone to the albums they had grooved to under the influence of band candy- Season 5 joyce not wanting Buffy to invite Giles on xmas eve saying dismisively tht he would have other things to do when demonstrably he did not- season 3 Joyce reacting to Buffy's gentle teasing about Giles and her history at a dinner with the Scoobies- Season 5( the body- Buffy's memory) Joyce and Giles and to some extent Jenny were shown to have less than enviable lives as adults and it always saddened me- I know the Jossverse is full of sturm and angst but it is vivid- Giles and Joyce seemed to have somewhat lackluster lives ( alhtough emotionally rich) and it was almost as though that was what adulthood represented it is a time honored convention in children's literature( to my way of thinking) but I was always a trifle let down to see it played out that way in Whedonville ellie
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Post by RAKSHA on Jan 30, 2004 3:29:01 GMT -5
I have no memory of that action being confronted directly, but in my opinion, every aspect of Giles's characterization in BtVS 6 and 7 have to do with it. Giles has finally reached his limit, the point where post traumatic stress disorder becomes full-on dissociative disorder. He has killed an innocent, and he has watched his slayer die. EVERYTHING he experiences after that piles trauma on trauma, until, after the horror of the COW's destruction we have pod Giles, capable only of gathering the potentials for a hopeless stand and incapable of tolerating even the very mixed risk that Spike presents to the Slayer line. Season 7 Giles is the anti-Ripper, hypervigilant and unable to see humor, or even hope. Killing Ben also kills the bit of Giles that is a human and not a Watcher. Julia, now THERE'S a glove thrown down if I ever saw one Sorry, but Ben was NOT an "innocent". He had dragged Dawn back into Glory's hands, choosing to save himself at the cost of opening Hells on earth.
Giles DID commit murder. I can't say whether he did the right or wrong thing. He had a chance to destroy a vicious and extremely powerful entity who committed destruction and mayhem and was about to destroy the world. It was a horrible choice to have to make. And one can say that it was a choice that caused him great harm. GAIL
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Post by Linda on Jan 30, 2004 5:14:55 GMT -5
<snip> Also, though - if we were meant to consider Giles' emotional state, the writers should have devoted some (ANY?) time to exploring it, the way they did with Buffy and Spike and Xander, and hell, even Anya got an episode. So there's something missing in the writing of Giles, even if he's not supposed to be himself in S7. ITA. Speculation: Was Joss just saving this stuff up for the BBC spinoff Ripper? I don't know for sure -- just seems logical. Linda, who wonders if this is indeed the case, can we chain Joss in a handy basement until he gets the series off the ground? ('Cause I miss Giles.)
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 30, 2004 12:50:50 GMT -5
Sorry, but Ben was NOT an "innocent". He had dragged Dawn back into Glory's hands, choosing to save himself at the cost of opening Hells on earth.
Giles DID commit murder. I can't say whether he did the right or wrong thing. He had a chance to destroy a vicious and extremely powerful entity who committed destruction and mayhem and was about to destroy the world. It was a horrible choice to have to make. And one can say that it was a choice that caused him great harm. GAIL I think that within the internalized values Giles has been imbued with since birth, Ben was an innocent: not "Innocent" as in the Slaughter of the Holy Innocents, but neither was he within the narrowly defined group of people that it was OK to kill. Julia, otherwise there really is no distinction between the COW and W&H wetwork team
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Post by Rachael on Feb 2, 2004 2:23:56 GMT -5
Sorry, but Ben was NOT an "innocent". He had dragged Dawn back into Glory's hands, choosing to save himself at the cost of opening Hells on earth.
Giles DID commit murder. I can't say whether he did the right or wrong thing. He had a chance to destroy a vicious and extremely powerful entity who committed destruction and mayhem and was about to destroy the world. It was a horrible choice to have to make. And one can say that it was a choice that caused him great harm. GAIL From our point of view, that's true, but Giles didn't know that Ben had turned Dawn over to Glory. No one knew, until and unless Dawn told them after Buffy's death, since she was the only one there when it happened. So, when Giles killed Ben, in his mind he was killing an innocent, and one who had in fact tried to help them on more than one occasion. We, the audience, were pretty much the only ones who knew that Ben wasn't as nice a guy as we thought, and I always felt that the bit where he turns on Dawn was written into the story in order to make us less bothered when Giles kills him.
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Post by Rachael on Feb 2, 2004 2:25:59 GMT -5
ITA. Speculation: Was Joss just saving this stuff up for the BBC spinoff Ripper? I don't know for sure -- just seems logical. Linda, who wonders if this is indeed the case, can we chain Joss in a handy basement until he gets the series off the ground? ('Cause I miss Giles.) Even if that's true, if the bloody series isn't "off the ground" yet, then I feel that Giles the character was owed a little more development than he got in Season 7. Especially since his character changed without explanation.
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Post by Rachael on Feb 2, 2004 2:28:04 GMT -5
rachael- i was always a tad disappointed that there was not more of a storyline for Joyce and giles- not so much in terms of romance although I have nothing against that- it is just that so much was hinted at in little scenes- giles mourning joyce by listening alone to the albums they had grooved to under the influence of band candy- Season 5 joyce not wanting Buffy to invite Giles on xmas eve saying dismisively tht he would have other things to do when demonstrably he did not- season 3 Joyce reacting to Buffy's gentle teasing about Giles and her history at a dinner with the Scoobies- Season 5( the body- Buffy's memory) Joyce and Giles and to some extent Jenny were shown to have less than enviable lives as adults and it always saddened me- I know the Jossverse is full of sturm and angst but it is vivid- Giles and Joyce seemed to have somewhat lackluster lives ( alhtough emotionally rich) and it was almost as though that was what adulthood represented it is a time honored convention in children's literature( to my way of thinking) but I was always a trifle let down to see it played out that way in Whedonville ellie ITA; and on some level, that is what adulthood represented in the Jossverse, but it was also clear that it doesn't have to be that way. I believe that Jenny had a rich life, as did Giles, apparently, after he returned to England. . .perhaps the message is more that that's what adulthood becomes if you don't work very hard to make it otherwise.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 2, 2004 10:50:17 GMT -5
From our point of view, that's true, but Giles didn't know that Ben had turned Dawn over to Glory. No one knew, until and unless Dawn told them after Buffy's death, since she was the only one there when it happened. So, when Giles killed Ben, in his mind he was killing an innocent, and one who had in fact tried to help them on more than one occasion. We, the audience, were pretty much the only ones who knew that Ben wasn't as nice a guy as we thought, and I always felt that the bit where he turns on Dawn was written into the story in order to make us less bothered when Giles kills him. Important point. Especially since ptsd isn't a disorder of thought processes, it's actually caused by neurological damage caused by huge jolts of neurotransmitters at the time of the trauma; finding out afterwards that it wasn't what you thought is no cure (important to remember this in regard to Wesley in "Lineage" as well). Julia, wishing not to go out in the rain doesn't keep me warm and dry when I have to do it, either
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Alexandra
S'cubie
Founder
"You never had it so good as me. Never."
Posts: 108
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Post by Alexandra on Feb 5, 2004 16:44:31 GMT -5
Interesting discussion about Ben being an "innocent." Ben and Glory unfortunately both lived in the same body, although neither one knew what the other one did when they were sublimated.
Is this somewhat like sharing your body with a demon ala a vampire? Angel shares his body with a demon but manages to overcome its demonic influence because of his soul. It was never said whether Ben had a soul or not, but my impression was that he did. That as a baby he was invaded by Glory when she got kicked out of her dimension.
If Ben had a soul, was he not able to control Glory because she was so powerful (a god?) Or was it because he was a weak person who chose himself over saving the entire world? It seems that a soul is not the only thing one needs to overcome a bad influence in the Jossverse. One also requires the desire to be or do good. When push came to shove, Ben wasn't good.
Maybe Ben didn't know if Glory would die if he killed himself, but it seemed that he knew she did a great deal of evil when she came to the fore. He had lived in his duality for years. He'd probably already long since decided that whatever she did, he wanted to live. This wasn't a new decision for him - it only became a higher stakes game - his freedom from Glory at the expense of the entire world suffering.
Although watching as Giles made the decision to kill Ben was shocking to viewers, I always thought he made the only decision he could. Ben's life for the saving of countless other lives (including Buffy's and Dawn's.) To me Giles stepped up and was incredibly courageous at a point where no one else could have had the chance.
If he hadn't killed Ben, how would he have felt later when Glory started killing people again? In a parallel situation, Buffy had a chance to kill Angel after he lost his soul, and at first she didn't. Because she didn't, Angel had the chance to murder Jenny. Giles lost his love because of Buffy hesitating. When Giles was presented with a similar scenario, he didn't hesitate. Perhaps he learned from Buffy's "mistake."
Alex
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Post by Rachael on Feb 5, 2004 18:58:16 GMT -5
Interesting discussion about Ben being an "innocent." Ben and Glory unfortunately both lived in the same body, although neither one knew what the other one did when they were sublimated. Is this somewhat like sharing your body with a demon ala a vampire? Angel shares his body with a demon but manages to overcome its demonic influence because of his soul. It was never said whether Ben had a soul or not, but my impression was that he did. That as a baby he was invaded by Glory when she got kicked out of her dimension. If Ben had a soul, was he not able to control Glory because she was so powerful (a god?) Or was it because he was a weak person who chose himself over saving the entire world? It seems that a soul is not the only thing one needs to overcome a bad influence in the Jossverse. One also requires the desire to be or do good. When push came to shove, Ben wasn't good. Maybe Ben didn't know if Glory would die if he killed himself, but it seemed that he knew she did a great deal of evil when she came to the fore. He had lived in his duality for years. He'd probably already long since decided that whatever she did, he wanted to live. This wasn't a new decision for him - it only became a higher stakes game - his freedom from Glory at the expense of the entire world suffering. Although watching as Giles made the decision to kill Ben was shocking to viewers, I always thought he made the only decision he could. Ben's life for the saving of countless other lives (including Buffy's and Dawn's.) To me Giles stepped up and was incredibly courageous at a point where no one else could have had the chance. If he hadn't killed Ben, how would he have felt later when Glory started killing people again? In a parallel situation, Buffy had a chance to kill Angel after he lost his soul, and at first she didn't. Because she didn't, Angel had the chance to murder Jenny. Giles lost his love because of Buffy hesitating. When Giles was presented with a similar scenario, he didn't hesitate. Perhaps he learned from Buffy's "mistake." Alex I agree entirely with your assessment of Giles' actions - he had to do the hard, horrible thing, and managed to have the courage to do it. Unlike Ben, who (I think I argued somewhere, once apon a time) should have killed himself to rid the world of Glory long ago. Assuming he knew it would work, and she wouldn't just be free to wreak havoc once he died. Or for that matter, flit to a new "host", making his sacrifice meaningless. But even if he did know, his failing to end his own life doesn't make him bad - it just makes him human. It takes a truly heroic level of courage to end one's life for the sake of others - the number one, most ingrained, evolutionarily-selected-for impulse in all organisms with any awareness at all is to prevent their own extinction. So imagine the difficulty of the choice facing Ben - do you think you could kill yourself to be rid of Glory? And so Giles had to kill an innocent - and as right as his choice was, it still had to be very hard on him. Sigh.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 5, 2004 19:22:46 GMT -5
I agree entirely with your assessment of Giles' actions - he had to do the hard, horrible thing, and managed to have the courage to do it. Unlike Ben, who (I think I argued somewhere, once apon a time) should have killed himself to rid the world of Glory long ago. Assuming he knew it would work, and she wouldn't just be free to wreak havoc once he died. Or for that matter, flit to a new "host", making his sacrifice meaningless. But even if he did know, his failing to end his own life doesn't make him bad - it just makes him human. It takes a truly heroic level of courage to end one's life for the sake of others - the number one, most ingrained, evolutionarily-selected-for impulse in all organisms with any awareness at all is to prevent their own extinction. So imagine the difficulty of the choice facing Ben - do you think you could kill yourself to be rid of Glory? And so Giles had to kill an innocent - and as right as his choice was, it still had to be very hard on him. Sigh. My emphasis. Yup, and that's why Ben's identity as a true innocent or not is pretty extraneous to the discussion of the killing him has on Giles. EVERYTHING about "The Gift" has put Giles in a state of heightened awareness, and heightened anxiety; killing Ben is just the third act climax. By the time the dimensions start to slip, his understanding of the ultimate consequences of that fact creates its own severe trauma, and Buffy's death pushes that to a level which I lack words to describe. I've watched the Giles episodes of S.6 recently, all in a row, and if it is not the conscious intent of ME and Tony Head to show him as someone pushed nearly to complete dissociation by trama, then they've done a good job of doing so without that intent! Julia, thinking especially of "Flooded" and "Tabula Rasa" here.
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Post by Kerrie on Feb 20, 2004 21:30:05 GMT -5
Joyce reacting to Buffy's gentle teasing about Giles and her history at a dinner with the Scoobies- Season 5( the body- Buffy's memory) ellie A minor point but I thought Buffy's memory of the dinner party in "The Body" was Buffy's wish for what she wanted to happen. Assuming that it was a wish and not reality I thought it was interesting she wanted Giles and her mother to be a couple. Giles really had become her father-figure. I liked that it was a wish because to me it seemed true that when someone dies that we grieve for all that has happened and all the wishes concerning that person that will now not come to pass.
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Alexandra
S'cubie
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"You never had it so good as me. Never."
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Post by Alexandra on May 19, 2004 19:19:31 GMT -5
I was watching "The Gift" recently on Fx and heard Giles say something that foreshadowed his killing of Ben, although we didn't know it the first time through.
GILES: I love Dawn. BUFFY: I know. GILES: But I've sworn to protect this sorry world, and sometimes that means saying and doing ... what other people can't. What they shouldn't have to.
Buffy turns to face him.
BUFFY: You try and hurt her, and you know I'll stop you. GILES: I know.
Giles has already decided that he must kill Dawn to save the world if need be. It isn't, therefore, a giant leap for him to be confronted with the decision to kill Ben and then act on it with little hesitation. His thought processes already had been activated with the possible necessity of killing an innocent to save the world. The innocent just turned out to be Ben, rather than Dawn.
Amazing the added dimensions that appear when one revisits an episode after having completed the season or the series. It's what makes this series so complex and endlessly fascinating.
Alexandra
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Alexandra
S'cubie
Founder
"You never had it so good as me. Never."
Posts: 108
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Post by Alexandra on May 19, 2004 19:24:33 GMT -5
I was watching "The Gift" recently on Fx and heard Giles say something that foreshadowed his killing of Ben, although we didn't know it the first time through. GILES: I love Dawn. BUFFY: I know. GILES: But I've sworn to protect this sorry world, and sometimes that means saying and doing ... what other people can't. What they shouldn't have to. Buffy turns to face him. BUFFY: You try and hurt her, and you know I'll stop you. GILES: I know. Giles has already decided that he must kill Dawn to save the world if need be. It isn't, therefore, a giant leap for him to be confronted with the decision to kill Ben and then act on it with little hesitation. His thought processes already had been activated with the possible necessity of killing an innocent to save the world. The innocent just turned out to be Ben, rather than Dawn. Amazing the added dimensions that appear when one revisits an episode after having completed the season or the series. It's what makes this series so complex and endlessly fascinating. Alexandra Whoops! Forgot to credit www.buffyworld.com for the quoted transcript in my post. Alexandra
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