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Post by William the Bloody on Dec 30, 2003 4:02:26 GMT -5
Written by Joss Whedon Directed by Joss Whedon Air date: 5/22/01
Refusing to believe that killing Dawn is hte only way to save the universe, Buffy prepares to do battle against Glory - and finally realizes the true meaning of "her gift."
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Post by Queen E on Jan 16, 2004 14:44:35 GMT -5
Written by Joss Whedon Directed by Joss Whedon Air date: 5/22/01 Refusing to believe that killing Dawn is hte only way to save the universe, Buffy prepares to do battle against Glory - and finally realizes the true meaning of "her gift." I'm going to take a gander at this, because I've just watched this episode 2 days ago. First, let me point out how much I love the reference to Henry V: "we few, we happy few," "we band of buggered." Deep joy for the English major geek. One thing I've noticed in this viewing (and I'm sure I'm not breaking any new ground here with this observation), is Tara's very specific reference to Giles when she says, "You're a killer." With all the focus in the season of whether a slayer is a killer or not, one would expect that Tara would direct that at Buffy. But Giles is the one to whom it's directed, and, of course, he kills Ben within the same episode. It gives further weight, in my opinion, to the idea that the brain-sucked victims of Glory got a little something in return, a little piece of Glory. They can see the key, they share the obsession with "the dark" and " dirtiness," and in fact Tara, in my opinion, is almost channelling Glory at that moment, pointing out the person who will eventually be responsible for her death.
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Post by RAKSHA on Jan 16, 2004 18:31:06 GMT -5
I'm going to take a gander at this, because I've just watched this episode 2 days ago. First, let me point out how much I love the reference to Henry V: "we few, we happy few," "we band of buggered." Deep joy for the English major geek. One thing I've noticed in this viewing (and I'm sure I'm not breaking any new ground here with this observation), is Tara's very specific reference to Giles when she says, "You're a killer." With all the focus in the season of whether a slayer is a killer or not, one would expect that Tara would direct that at Buffy. But Giles is the one to whom it's directed, and, of course, he kills Ben within the same episode. It gives further weight, in my opinion, to the idea that the brain-sucked victims of Glory got a little something in return, a little piece of Glory. They can see the key, they share the obsession with "the dark" and " dirtiness," and in fact Tara, in my opinion, is almost channelling Glory at that moment, pointing out the person who will eventually be responsible for her death. Good point, eg! Could well be that the brain-sucked ones either have a bit of Glory in their heads, or their link to her is opening their perceptions to things beyond their normal ken.
Was this the first time you've seen the episode?[glow=purple,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by Queen E on Jan 19, 2004 11:29:52 GMT -5
Good point, eg! Could well be that the brain-sucked ones either have a bit of Glory in their heads, or their link to her is opening their perceptions to things beyond their normal ken.
Was this the first time you've seen the episode?[glow=purple,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Oh no. I've been a Buffy viewer from Day 1... Sometimes it take subsequent viewings for me to see all the bits and pieces...I also don't have FX, so limited to Saturdays and Sundays on Fox until the DVDs come out, and they edit the hell out of those. To me, a Buffy (or Angel or Firefly) episode has so many layers, so many things going on, that its worth watching again and again. Most shows don't stand up to that kind of scrutiny.
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Post by Linda on Jan 26, 2004 7:13:19 GMT -5
Hi all,
I have a general question for anyone who is looking in on this episode thread...
I your opinion, has Giles' murder of Ben ever been dealt with character-wise in Season 6 or 7 of BtVS? EVER? That's one huge burden for anyone to have to bear, much less a GOOD person like Giles, Ripper days notwithstanding.
Was JW saving this up for the Ripper miniseries? Or did it come out in subtext somewhere in season six? Was it ever Text? Was that one of the reasons Giles left? Did Tara remember saying "You're a killer" to Giles?
Please feel free to let me know if I have missed something obvious, cause I really want to know.
Linda, who has posted way too much today, and it is only 2:00 am Hawaii time...
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Post by Queen E on Jan 26, 2004 10:22:40 GMT -5
Hi all, I have a general question for anyone who is looking in on this episode thread... I your opinion, has Giles' murder of Ben ever been dealt with character-wise in Season 6 or 7 of BtVS? EVER? That's one huge burden for anyone to have to bear, much less a GOOD person like Giles, Ripper days notwithstanding. Was JW saving this up for the Ripper miniseries? Or did it come out in subtext somewhere in season six? Was it ever Text? Was that one of the reasons Giles left? Did Tara remember saying "You're a killer" to Giles? Please feel free to let me know if I have missed something obvious, cause I really want to know. Linda, who has posted way too much today, and it is only 2:00 am Hawaii time... In the shooting script of "Lies My Parents Told Me" in Season 7, Giles brings up the killing of Ben, but, unfortunately, it never made it to broadcast. As to the rest, I'll have to think it over once I get some coffee in me!
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 26, 2004 11:30:42 GMT -5
Hi all, I have a general question for anyone who is looking in on this episode thread... I your opinion, has Giles' murder of Ben ever been dealt with character-wise in Season 6 or 7 of BtVS? EVER? That's one huge burden for anyone to have to bear, much less a GOOD person like Giles, Ripper days notwithstanding. Was JW saving this up for the Ripper miniseries? Or did it come out in subtext somewhere in season six? Was it ever Text? Was that one of the reasons Giles left? Did Tara remember saying "You're a killer" to Giles? Please feel free to let me know if I have missed something obvious, cause I really want to know. Linda, who has posted way too much today, and it is only 2:00 am Hawaii time... I have no memory of that action being confronted directly, but in my opinion, every aspect of Giles's characterization in BtVS 6 and 7 have to do with it. Giles has finally reached his limit, the point where post traumatic stress disorder becomes full-on dissociative disorder. He has killed an innocent, and he has watched his slayer die. EVERYTHING he experiences after that piles trauma on trauma, until, after the horror of the COW's destruction we have pod Giles, capable only of gathering the potentials for a hopeless stand and incapable of tolerating even the very mixed risk that Spike presents to the Slayer line. Season 7 Giles is the anti-Ripper, hypervigilant and unable to see humor, or even hope. Killing Ben also kills the bit of Giles that is a human and not a Watcher. Julia, now THERE'S a glove thrown down if I ever saw one
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Post by Nickim on Jan 26, 2004 19:56:19 GMT -5
I have no memory of that action being confronted directly, but in my opinion, every aspect of Giles's characterization in BtVS 6 and 7 have to do with it. Giles has finally reached his limit, the point where post traumatic stress disorder becomes full-on dissociative disorder. He has killed an innocent, and he has watched his slayer die. EVERYTHING he experiences after that piles trauma on trauma, until, after the horror of the COW's destruction we have pod Giles, capable only of gathering the potentials for a hopeless stand and incapable of tolerating even the very mixed risk that Spike presents to the Slayer line. Season 7 Giles is the anti-Ripper, hypervigilant and unable to see humor, or even hope. Killing Ben also kills the bit of Giles that is a human and not a Watcher. Julia, now THERE'S a glove thrown down if I ever saw one Wow, Julia. I think you're on to something here. The Giles we saw in Season 7 was NOT the Giles we knew & loved. The PTSS explanation makes perfect sense to me.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 26, 2004 20:02:11 GMT -5
Wow, Julia. I think you're on to something here. The Giles we saw in Season 7 was NOT the Giles we knew & loved. The PTSS explanation makes perfect sense to me. I think that the resistance to Pod Giles in S7 is closely related to the resistance to Depressed Buffy in S6; in both cases ME/Joss chose to give real consequences to the fictional experience of the characters. Interesting that "The Gift" is the fulcrum on which both of these changes hinge. Julia, I think Giles is getting unravelled as early as "Passion", though
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Post by Linda on Jan 26, 2004 23:32:32 GMT -5
I have no memory of that action being confronted directly, but in my opinion, every aspect of Giles's characterization in BtVS 6 and 7 have to do with it. Giles has finally reached his limit, the point where post traumatic stress disorder becomes full-on dissociative disorder. He has killed an innocent, and he has watched his slayer die. EVERYTHING he experiences after that piles trauma on trauma, until, after the horror of the COW's destruction we have pod Giles, capable only of gathering the potentials for a hopeless stand and incapable of tolerating even the very mixed risk that Spike presents to the Slayer line. Season 7 Giles is the anti-Ripper, hypervigilant and unable to see humor, or even hope. Killing Ben also kills the bit of Giles that is a human and not a Watcher. Julia, now THERE'S a glove thrown down if I ever saw one Julia, Thank you for putting into words something I was starting to think about, but hadn't yet seen addressed anywhere. Linda, who read your reply and thought, Yup, missed the obvious, all right.
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Post by Queen E on Jan 27, 2004 13:00:16 GMT -5
I have no memory of that action being confronted directly, but in my opinion, every aspect of Giles's characterization in BtVS 6 and 7 have to do with it. Giles has finally reached his limit, the point where post traumatic stress disorder becomes full-on dissociative disorder. He has killed an innocent, and he has watched his slayer die. EVERYTHING he experiences after that piles trauma on trauma, until, after the horror of the COW's destruction we have pod Giles, capable only of gathering the potentials for a hopeless stand and incapable of tolerating even the very mixed risk that Spike presents to the Slayer line. Season 7 Giles is the anti-Ripper, hypervigilant and unable to see humor, or even hope. Killing Ben also kills the bit of Giles that is a human and not a Watcher. Julia, now THERE'S a glove thrown down if I ever saw one No glove here. I agree with you and in fact have posited a similar idea (ie, why wouldn't Giles be irrational? Especially with the killing of the people he grew up with, especially after being torn away from the life apart from watcher-ness in England, especially given Willow's torture of him). And I still think living on the hellmouth is like living near a nuclear power plant; how can it not cause some kind of cancer of the soul?
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Post by Rachael on Jan 27, 2004 13:19:36 GMT -5
No glove here. I agree with you and in fact have posited a similar idea (ie, why wouldn't Giles be irrational? Especially with the killing of the people he grew up with, especially after being torn away from the life apart from watcher-ness in England, especially given Willow's torture of him). And I still think living on the hellmouth is like living near a nuclear power plant; how can it not cause some kind of cancer of the soul? Wow. Until you all started talking about it, it never occurred to me to consider the long-term effects on Giles of the events of S5-7. I feel a tad guilty, as I realize I've been used to thinking of Giles as "the grown-up", who thus doesn't need any help with his own stuff. And, as I just posted on the main board, where would he go for such help, if he wanted to? In that sense, the loss of Jenny, and then Joyce, were huge blows for Giles, too - they representing the only other adults he could conceivably have confided in. (I'm assuming that he didn't have close friends on the Council, simply because he always seemed quite a bit seperate from that culture.) Also, though - if we were meant to consider Giles' emotional state, the writers should have devoted some (ANY?) time to exploring it, the way they did with Buffy and Spike and Xander, and hell, even Anya got an episode. So there's something missing in the writing of Giles, even if he's not supposed to be himself in S7.
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Post by Rachael on Jan 27, 2004 13:22:45 GMT -5
But and however - I always understood the murder of Ben. Yup, it was basically a cold-blooded murder. But, in Giles' mind, it was Ben or Dawn (or Buffy), and, given the choice between their daughters and a stranger, he made the right choice. It shows a strength of character that most people don't possess.
Maybe I see this differently - I see the murder of Ben as an unfortunate necessity, and an example of the extraordinary lengths Giles was willing to go to to protect Buffy. If Julia is correct, he sacrificed what was left of himself to save her, and they were both left as walking corpses for Season 6 (and, in Giles' case, 7).
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 27, 2004 13:34:09 GMT -5
No glove here. I agree with you and in fact have posited a similar idea (ie, why wouldn't Giles be irrational? Especially with the killing of the people he grew up with, especially after being torn away from the life apart from watcher-ness in England, especially given Willow's torture of him). And I still think living on the hellmouth is like living near a nuclear power plant; how can it not cause some kind of cancer of the soul? Or living subjected to intermittant artillary fire Giles, being the watcher of an extrordinary slayer, is constantly having his expectations shaken. His experiences with Jenny and Willow also shake his confidence in the authoritative nature of the Council of Watchers. And his Ripper period make him vulnerable to influences which the Watcher education has developed to protect against (think of the diffeerence between Giles and early Wes, not to mention the pack o'bozos in "Checkpoint"). When he does the ultimate Watcher thing and kills Ben, he is subject to conflicts that a more standard issue Watcher would shrug off. Julia, oops, lost another point I wanted to make. durn.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 27, 2004 13:39:36 GMT -5
Wow. Until you all started talking about it, it never occurred to me to consider the long-term effects on Giles of the events of S5-7. I feel a tad guilty, as I realize I've been used to thinking of Giles as "the grown-up", who thus doesn't need any help with his own stuff. And, as I just posted on the main board, where would he go for such help, if he wanted to? In that sense, the loss of Jenny, and then Joyce, were huge blows for Giles, too - they representing the only other adults he could conceivably have confided in. (I'm assuming that he didn't have close friends on the Council, simply because he always seemed quite a bit seperate from that culture.) Also, though - if we were meant to consider Giles' emotional state, the writers should have devoted some (ANY?) time to exploring it, the way they did with Buffy and Spike and Xander, and hell, even Anya got an episode. So there's something missing in the writing of Giles, even if he's not supposed to be himself in S7. AH! that's one of the points I've been thinking about; both Giles and Buffy, post "The Gift" are in serious need of emotional support, and have no resources to draw on. Giles has set himself apart from the council, Buffy has no other mentor to go to, and neither of them have access to the same therapy that us normal traumatized people do. I find myself hoping that The Coven has at least one trained cognitive therapist Wiccan! Julia, if so, Buffy should still be working through divorce and parental death issues now
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