|
Post by SpringSummers on Apr 28, 2009 22:55:21 GMT -5
* Why do you guys think that Giles and Spike and Dawn are the ones who can't know about the plan, really? All Willow says is they "wouldn't understand", but is it just 'cuz they are the only ones who might stop her? I mean, I think Willow does think she knows why she wants to do the spell, but I also think she is deceiving herself a bit. Willow wants to be in charge, in control. She wants to do this thing, and she doesn't want anyone who might get in her way. GILES: She surely knows that he would stop her. SPIKE: She can't be sure what he would or wouldn't do, at any point in the goings on - he's as impulsive as she is, and always "does his own thing." He does not think of her as a leader. Also, he might know something about the dangers of what she's doing, and tell the others. She doesn't want unpredictable and uncontrollable Spike in the mix. DAWN: She can't be trusted not to tell Spike and/or Giles. I know!!! I am thinking "before," but either way, it worked.
|
|
|
Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Apr 29, 2009 6:17:24 GMT -5
* Why do you guys think that Giles and Spike and Dawn are the ones who can't know about the plan, really? All Willow says is they "wouldn't understand", but is it just 'cuz they are the only ones who might stop her? I mean, I think Willow does think she knows why she wants to do the spell, but I also think she is deceiving herself a bit. * OK, James is awesome in the scene with the 'Bot and Willow - you can actually see him freeze when she says the thing his washboard abs and the way his voice goes all . . . still and intense. But also? Look at his ass when the camera is focusing on Willow sitting opposite the 'bot and he's just on the edge of the screen. Damn. I mean, Damn!! * Willow, Willow, Willow. So determined to make everything "good as new". 'Bot on Buffy's bed, in her "sleep" clothes, plugged in and still, with Danw curling up next to her? * The 'Bot isn't as good a fighter as Buffy. She telegraphs her punches too much. I'm not surprised that Hanson!vamp was able to get to her. * The scene with the deer is creepy because of how Willow acts, now she is looking around for others and so on, more so than what she is actually doing. * Heee! Tara's grrr argggh. ;D Giles saying goodbye at airport. * The spell is basically one long session of begging, isn't it? At what point was it enough, I wonder? Before the urn was smashed? After? There are many disturbing images in this episode. Demons doing a Wild Bunch attack the whole town, corpse Buffy rotting in her coffin, Willow standing on a crypt (and foreshadowing much of her future black-haired self) directing the attacks telepathically (also foreshadowing her mind tricks)... ...but to me the single most disturbing, creepifying and sickening image in this episode or, indeed, the entire series is Willow sitting in this idyllic forest glade, calling an innocent fawn to her hand and then slaughtering it.
|
|
|
Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Apr 29, 2009 6:23:59 GMT -5
* Why do you guys think that Giles and Spike and Dawn are the ones who can't know about the plan, really? All Willow says is they "wouldn't understand", but is it just 'cuz they are the only ones who might stop her? I mean, I think Willow does think she knows why she wants to do the spell, but I also think she is deceiving herself a bit. Willow wants to be in charge, in control. She wants to do this thing, and she doesn't want anyone who might get in her way. GILES: She surely knows that he would stop her. SPIKE: She can't be sure what he would or wouldn't do, at any point in the goings on - he's as impulsive as she is, and always "does his own thing." He does not think of her as a leader. Also, he might know something about the dangers of what she's doing, and tell the others. She doesn't want unpredictable and uncontrollable Spike in the mix. DAWN: She can't be trusted not to tell Spike and/or Giles. I know!!! I am thinking "before," but either way, it worked. Spike is the wild card that Willow can't risk. She's defied Giles before. Spike has the strength to mess up a spell as delicate as this one, but if (as Spike himself says) the spell brought Buffy back "wrong"--Spike would also do all he could to preserve resurrected Buffy no matter what it was she came back as.
|
|
|
Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Apr 29, 2009 11:02:51 GMT -5
* Why do you guys think that Giles and Spike and Dawn are the ones who can't know about the plan, really? All Willow says is they "wouldn't understand", but is it just 'cuz they are the only ones who might stop her? I mean, I think Willow does think she knows why she wants to do the spell, but I also think she is deceiving herself a bit. * OK, James is awesome in the scene with the 'Bot and Willow - you can actually see him freeze when she says the thing his washboard abs and the way his voice goes all . . . still and intense. But also? Look at his ass when the camera is focusing on Willow sitting opposite the 'bot and he's just on the edge of the screen. Damn. I mean, Damn!! * Willow, Willow, Willow. So determined to make everything "good as new". 'Bot on Buffy's bed, in her "sleep" clothes, plugged in and still, with Danw curling up next to her? * The 'Bot isn't as good a fighter as Buffy. She telegraphs her punches too much. I'm not surprised that Hanson!vamp was able to get to her. * The scene with the deer is creepy because of how Willow acts, now she is looking around for others and so on, more so than what she is actually doing. * Heee! Tara's grrr argggh. ;D Giles saying goodbye at airport. * The spell is basically one long session of begging, isn't it? At what point was it enough, I wonder? Before the urn was smashed? After? There are many disturbing images in this episode. Demons doing a Wild Bunch to attack the whole town, corpse Buffy rotting in her coffin, Willow standing on a crypt (and foreshadowing much of her future black-haired self) directing the attacks telepathically (also foreshadowing her mind tricks)... ...but to me the single most disturbing, creepifying and sickening image in this epaisode or, indeed, the entire series is Willow sitting in this idyllic forest glade, calling an innocent fawn to her hand and then slaughtering it. Yeah, the fawn scene is hard to take, and really does show just how far lost to normal emotions Willow can get in pursuit of magical power. There's a straight line from that scene to the tantrum in the Magic Box, and to everything she does in "Grave." Julia, s6 Willow is scarier on every rewatch
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Apr 29, 2009 19:53:56 GMT -5
There are many disturbing images in this episode. Demons doing a Wild Bunch to attack the whole town, corpse Buffy rotting in her coffin, Willow standing on a crypt (and foreshadowing much of her future black-haired self) directing the attacks telepathically (also foreshadowing her mind tricks)... ...but to me the single most disturbing, creepifying and sickening image in this epaisode or, indeed, the entire series is Willow sitting in this idyllic forest glade, calling an innocent fawn to her hand and then slaughtering it. Yeah, the fawn scene is hard to take, and really does show just how far lost to normal emotions Willow can get in pursuit of magical power. There's a straight line from that scene to the tantrum in the Magic Box, and to everything she does in "Grave." Julia, s6 Willow is scarier on every rewatch And especially scary because it was so very very possible that they would not have been able to stop her.
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on May 2, 2009 8:45:46 GMT -5
Yeah, the fawn scene is hard to take, and really does show just how far lost to normal emotions Willow can get in pursuit of magical power. There's a straight line from that scene to the tantrum in the Magic Box, and to everything she does in "Grave." Julia, s6 Willow is scarier on every rewatch And especially scary because it was so very very possible that they would not have been able to stop her. And yet I do find her (a little) sympathetic here, if only because of her capacity for self-delusion and rationalization. Any intelligent person can rationalize any number of bad things if they think it is in the service of something good. I think it is quite clear that Willow was grieving for her best friend, and just as clear that she was unable to move through the grief properly (which we'll really see with Tara). She only admits Buffy is dead when the spell fails. I'm betting she began researching how to bring Buffy back within a day of defeating Glory, and by that token, was in denial that she would not get her best friend back. Sometimes what we think we do for the greater good is the thing that causes the most damage...
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on May 2, 2009 9:54:24 GMT -5
And especially scary because it was so very very possible that they would not have been able to stop her. And yet I do find her (a little) sympathetic here, if only because of her capacity for self-delusion and rationalization. Any intelligent person can rationalize any number of bad things if they think it is in the service of something good. I think it is quite clear that Willow was grieving for her best friend, and just as clear that she was unable to move through the grief properly (which we'll really see with Tara). She only admits Buffy is dead when the spell fails. I'm betting she began researching how to bring Buffy back within a day of defeating Glory, and by that token, was in denial that she would not get her best friend back. Sometimes what we think we do for the greater good is the thing that causes the most damage... I think it goes deeper than that, with Willow. Very true and well said, she's not accepting Buffy's death and she's unwilling to face the pain of loss and work through it (we saw that with Oz and other places, now again here). But in the Buffyverse she lives in, she's not wrong in thinking that maybe, somehow, she can get her friend back. Her delusions are about her own motivations for wanting to do the spell. She is motivated as much by a dark, selfish need for control and power, as she is by a sunnier, loving need for her best pal. That dark need is based on terrible self-doubt and insecurity - she doesn't trust herself, or the love others have for her, so she feels the need to manipulate and control. She craves it. Willow's pretending to everyone - even to herself - that it's all about how much she loves Buffy, and her grief at losing Buffy. She can't face the evil inside of her, she can't acknowledge it, so she covers it all up with "but I'm just a poor sweet fragile girl who wants my Buffy back!!" And she is that, but she's more than that - she's also a horribly insecure person with a huge, ruthless, I-don't-care-who-gets-hurt appetite for power and control. She would have been so much better off if the spell to bring Buffy back hadn't worked. It would have forced her to face and work through the grief; she would have learned that it was possible to do, and that she was strong enough to do it. But instead, her success reinforced her belief that it's better to look for ways to manipulate reality to your liking, no matter what the risk to self and others. When Tara dies, Willow lets that evil out for all to see, but even then, she's justifying it all, rationalizing her murderous intentions as something she has the right to do, because of the way others have caused her pain. Even veiny, she plays the victim, and truly sees herself that way.
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on May 2, 2009 12:10:34 GMT -5
And yet I do find her (a little) sympathetic here, if only because of her capacity for self-delusion and rationalization. Any intelligent person can rationalize any number of bad things if they think it is in the service of something good. I think it is quite clear that Willow was grieving for her best friend, and just as clear that she was unable to move through the grief properly (which we'll really see with Tara). She only admits Buffy is dead when the spell fails. I'm betting she began researching how to bring Buffy back within a day of defeating Glory, and by that token, was in denial that she would not get her best friend back. Sometimes what we think we do for the greater good is the thing that causes the most damage... I think it goes deeper than that, with Willow. Very true and well said, she's not accepting Buffy's death and she's unwilling to face the pain of loss and work through it (we saw that with Oz and other places, now again here). But in the Buffyverse she lives in, she's not wrong in thinking that maybe, somehow, she can get her friend back. Her delusions are about her own motivations for wanting to do the spell. She is motivated as much by a dark, selfish need for control and power, as she is by a sunnier, loving need for her best pal. That dark need is based on terrible self-doubt and insecurity - she doesn't trust herself, or the love others have for her, so she feels the need to manipulate and control. She craves it. Willow's pretending to everyone - even to herself - that it's all about how much she loves Buffy, and her grief at losing Buffy. She can't face the evil inside of her, she can't acknowledge it, so she covers it all up with "but I'm just a poor sweet fragile girl who wants my Buffy back!!" And she is that, but she's more than that - she's also a horribly insecure person with a huge, ruthless, I-don't-care-who-gets-hurt appetite for power and control. She would have been so much better off if the spell to bring Buffy back hadn't worked. It would have forced her to face and work through the grief; she would have learned that it was possible to do, and that she was strong enough to do it. But instead, her success reinforced her belief that it's better to look for ways to manipulate reality to your liking, no matter what the risk to self and others. When Tara dies, Willow lets that evil out for all to see, but even then, she's justifying it all, rationalizing her murderous intentions as something she has the right to do, because of the way others have caused her pain. Even veiny, she plays the victim, and truly sees herself that way. Oh, absolutely. And that's part of the reason why I don't really have an issue with the "addiction" metaphor in Season 6. Because I never read it as an addiction to magic, but rather an addiction to power. In fact, Tara's suggestion that Willow give up magic was actually not a good idea; it was treating the symptom rather than the underlying problem. And it allowed all that power to store up for months, which might have made Willow more dangerous. Not that I blame Tara by any means. She did right in both issuing an ultimatum and leaving when it was clear Willow had no respect for boundaries. But Willow's giving up of magic was just another way for Willow to exert power, this time over herself. I should save this discussion for later episodes....
|
|
|
Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on May 2, 2009 13:50:01 GMT -5
I think it goes deeper than that, with Willow. Very true and well said, she's not accepting Buffy's death and she's unwilling to face the pain of loss and work through it (we saw that with Oz and other places, now again here). But in the Buffyverse she lives in, she's not wrong in thinking that maybe, somehow, she can get her friend back. Her delusions are about her own motivations for wanting to do the spell. She is motivated as much by a dark, selfish need for control and power, as she is by a sunnier, loving need for her best pal. That dark need is based on terrible self-doubt and insecurity - she doesn't trust herself, or the love others have for her, so she feels the need to manipulate and control. She craves it. Willow's pretending to everyone - even to herself - that it's all about how much she loves Buffy, and her grief at losing Buffy. She can't face the evil inside of her, she can't acknowledge it, so she covers it all up with "but I'm just a poor sweet fragile girl who wants my Buffy back!!" And she is that, but she's more than that - she's also a horribly insecure person with a huge, ruthless, I-don't-care-who-gets-hurt appetite for power and control. She would have been so much better off if the spell to bring Buffy back hadn't worked. It would have forced her to face and work through the grief; she would have learned that it was possible to do, and that she was strong enough to do it. But instead, her success reinforced her belief that it's better to look for ways to manipulate reality to your liking, no matter what the risk to self and others. When Tara dies, Willow lets that evil out for all to see, but even then, she's justifying it all, rationalizing her murderous intentions as something she has the right to do, because of the way others have caused her pain. Even veiny, she plays the victim, and truly sees herself that way. Oh, absolutely. And that's part of the reason why I don't really have an issue with the "addiction" metaphor in Season 6. Because I never read it as an addiction to magic, but rather an addiction to power. In fact, Tara's suggestion that Willow give up magic was actually not a good idea; it was treating the symptom rather than the underlying problem. And it allowed all that power to store up for months, which might have made Willow more dangerous. Not that I blame Tara by any means. She did right in both issuing an ultimatum and leaving when it was clear Willow had no respect for boundaries. But Willow's giving up of magic was just another way for Willow to exert power, this time over herself. I should save this discussion for later episodes.... I think that the whole first part of s7, with Willow working at the coven and later dealing with her fears of herself in...gah... the episode with the skin-eating demon and the whole invisibility thing- is meant to show the ways that Willow's addiction is not like an addiction to drugs or alcohol, but more like an eating disorder or obsession with sex or exersize: she has to learn to accept her power and control it, rather than giveit up entirely, because it is as necessary to her as food. Julia, twelve step programs are not effective for things youcan't just quit flat.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on May 2, 2009 14:59:37 GMT -5
Oh, absolutely. And that's part of the reason why I don't really have an issue with the "addiction" metaphor in Season 6. Because I never read it as an addiction to magic, but rather an addiction to power. In fact, Tara's suggestion that Willow give up magic was actually not a good idea; it was treating the symptom rather than the underlying problem. And it allowed all that power to store up for months, which might have made Willow more dangerous. Not that I blame Tara by any means. She did right in both issuing an ultimatum and leaving when it was clear Willow had no respect for boundaries. But Willow's giving up of magic was just another way for Willow to exert power, this time over herself. I should save this discussion for later episodes.... I think that the whole first part of s7, with Willow working at the coven and later dealing with her fears of herself in...gah... the episode with the skin-eating demon and the whole invisibility thing- is meant to show the ways that Willow's addiction is not like an addiction to drugs or alcohol, but more like an eating disorder or obsession with sex or exersize: she has to learn to accept her power and control it, rather than giveit up entirely, because it is as necessary to her as food. Julia, twelve step programs are not effective for things youcan't just quit flat. I love how S'cubies think! I love that I don't have to read tiresome, bitter, shallow criticisms about how lame it was for magic to be compared to drugs. It was never about an "addiction to magic." It was about an addiction to power and control. And yes, there were imperfections in the presentation of the drug metaphor (the comparison to an eating disorder or sexual obsession is perfect, and would have made for a better analogy - though, when I think of it, it was touched upon, with the comparisons being drawn between Buffy's S6 obsession and Willow's - and Warren's too), but I agree that S7 addressed those nicely. I suppose we should save this for discussion for later eps, but I like the start we are getting on it!
|
|
|
Post by KMInfinity on May 2, 2009 20:00:34 GMT -5
It was about an addiction to power and control. And yes, there were imperfections in the presentation of the drug metaphor (the comparison to an eating disorder or sexual obsession is perfect, and would have made for a better analogy - though, when I think of it, it was touched upon, with the comparisons being drawn between Buffy's S6 obsession and Willow's - and Warren's too), but I agree that S7 addressed those nicely. I suppose we should save this for discussion for later eps, but I like the start we are getting on it! I agree. I didn't like the comparison to drugs because it implied magic in all forms was evil. I prefer the idea that it's a question of the use of magic. But...saving for later.... One thing I've wondered about is why yet another slayer wasn't called when Buffy died the 2nd time. I always saw the process this way: the slayer's death releases a "call" to a potential. So why wasn't there a new slayer called?
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on May 2, 2009 20:45:56 GMT -5
It was about an addiction to power and control. And yes, there were imperfections in the presentation of the drug metaphor (the comparison to an eating disorder or sexual obsession is perfect, and would have made for a better analogy - though, when I think of it, it was touched upon, with the comparisons being drawn between Buffy's S6 obsession and Willow's - and Warren's too), but I agree that S7 addressed those nicely. I suppose we should save this for discussion for later eps, but I like the start we are getting on it! I agree. I didn't like the comparison to drugs because it implied magic in all forms was evil. I prefer the idea that it's a question of the use of magic. But...saving for later.... One thing I've wondered about is why yet another slayer wasn't called when Buffy died the 2nd time. I always saw the process this way: the slayer's death releases a "call" to a potential. So why wasn't there a new slayer called? My take on it was this: When Buffy died the first time, Faith was called. Buffy's successor was Faith, and only Faith. So that was a done deal. No matter how many times Buffy might die after that, no Slayer would be called - that call was "used up" so to speak. For another Slayer to be called, Faith would have to die. ETA: I meant to add - Yes, agree that it was about the way Willow used magic, not magic itself. But drugs in all forms aren't evil, so if you compare magic to drugs, I wouldn't say that you are implying that magic is evil "in all forms." In fact, with drugs, it is also all about "how you use them." As Julia mentioned, though, I thought "magic" was being presented more as a "symptom" than Willow's real problem anyhow. ETA Again: Oh, yeah - Kendra, not Faith, as Lola says. Faith was called after Kendra's death.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on May 2, 2009 21:25:38 GMT -5
I think it goes deeper than that, with Willow. Very true and well said, she's not accepting Buffy's death and she's unwilling to face the pain of loss and work through it (we saw that with Oz and other places, now again here). But in the Buffyverse she lives in, she's not wrong in thinking that maybe, somehow, she can get her friend back. Her delusions are about her own motivations for wanting to do the spell. She is motivated as much by a dark, selfish need for control and power, as she is by a sunnier, loving need for her best pal. That dark need is based on terrible self-doubt and insecurity - she doesn't trust herself, or the love others have for her, so she feels the need to manipulate and control. She craves it. Willow's pretending to everyone - even to herself - that it's all about how much she loves Buffy, and her grief at losing Buffy. She can't face the evil inside of her, she can't acknowledge it, so she covers it all up with "but I'm just a poor sweet fragile girl who wants my Buffy back!!" And she is that, but she's more than that - she's also a horribly insecure person with a huge, ruthless, I-don't-care-who-gets-hurt appetite for power and control. She would have been so much better off if the spell to bring Buffy back hadn't worked. It would have forced her to face and work through the grief; she would have learned that it was possible to do, and that she was strong enough to do it. But instead, her success reinforced her belief that it's better to look for ways to manipulate reality to your liking, no matter what the risk to self and others. When Tara dies, Willow lets that evil out for all to see, but even then, she's justifying it all, rationalizing her murderous intentions as something she has the right to do, because of the way others have caused her pain. Even veiny, she plays the victim, and truly sees herself that way. Oh, absolutely. And that's part of the reason why I don't really have an issue with the "addiction" metaphor in Season 6. Because I never read it as an addiction to magic, but rather an addiction to power. In fact, Tara's suggestion that Willow give up magic was actually not a good idea; it was treating the symptom rather than the underlying problem. And it allowed all that power to store up for months, which might have made Willow more dangerous. Not that I blame Tara by any means. She did right in both issuing an ultimatum and leaving when it was clear Willow had no respect for boundaries. But Willow's giving up of magic was just another way for Willow to exert power, this time over herself. I should save this discussion for later episodes.... Excellent discussion, I say we can bring it up anytime we want to! ;D And also, eetah to both of you. I too see the addiction to power and control, coming from such deep insecurity and fear. Fear that she is "no one special", that no one could ever really love or be interested in her, so she has to keep tight control on things, to "make" them, in some way. But at the same time, she is afraid of that side of herself and always masks it.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on May 2, 2009 21:30:24 GMT -5
It was about an addiction to power and control. And yes, there were imperfections in the presentation of the drug metaphor (the comparison to an eating disorder or sexual obsession is perfect, and would have made for a better analogy - though, when I think of it, it was touched upon, with the comparisons being drawn between Buffy's S6 obsession and Willow's - and Warren's too), but I agree that S7 addressed those nicely. I suppose we should save this for discussion for later eps, but I like the start we are getting on it! I agree. I didn't like the comparison to drugs because it implied magic in all forms was evil. I prefer the idea that it's a question of the use of magic. But...saving for later.... One thing I've wondered about is why yet another slayer wasn't called when Buffy died the 2nd time. I always saw the process this way: the slayer's death releases a "call" to a potential. So why wasn't there a new slayer called? How she used the magic, excellent point! And Julia, I love the comparison to eating or sexual disorders, very apt! As to the slayer calling, I know many folks believe that when Buffy died way back at the start of the season and Kendra was called, that the "call" moved to her and her death called Faith. So really, it would be Faith's death that called the next slayer. Well, until TFE's wacky "kill 'em all" plan, at least. That has always seemed plausible to me.
|
|
|
Post by luvmyfirefly on May 24, 2009 22:48:17 GMT -5
I feel really guilty about not participating in this so far, especially because I asked for it! But I posted before about how the Season 6 & 7 Spike angstiness influenced me a lot in the weeks leading up to my separation and I've found myself avoiding it like a trip to the dentist. I think I'm dreading both the Spike pain and my own personal memories of one of the worst periods of my life.
But enough whining. I finally sucked it up and started Bargaining tonight. Won't be able to post yet because my laptop power cord went out, but I should have a new one by Tuesday and then I hope to be a loudmouth schnook in these threads.
But, my oh my, is Spike not a sparkly, pretty fellow? Swoon.
|
|