|
Post by Moscow Watcher on Jul 19, 2005 9:45:15 GMT -5
The Buffy-Xander argument is fascinating, and I won't go on about it here. yet. But there's one exchange I wanted to bring up: XANDER: Because you don't care about her the same way I do. Buffy, I still love her. BUFFY: I know. And that's why you can't see this for what it really is. "What is really is" turns out to be a cry for help. Willow sees that. Now does Buffy really see that? What is her interpretation of what's going on with Anya really? I'd like to draw another telling parallel - dialog in First DateBUFFY Things have been different since he came back.
GILES It doesn't matter if you're not physical with each other anymore. There's a connection. You rely on him, he relies on you. That's what's affecting your judgment. In Selfless she openly declares that love is weakness. In FD she tries hard to avoid confessing her feelings because she's sure that this confession will reveal her own weakness. But Giles knows her well enough so he doesn't buy evasive words. *********** Found some interesting stuff about the development of the episode. I'm especially impressed by the fact that Joss has been simultaneously directing Firefly pilot, breaking stories for BtVS and AtS *and* writing a song for Anya! www.drewgoddard.com/buffymaginterview.htmlwww.drewgoddard.com/dreamwatch.html
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jul 19, 2005 10:30:41 GMT -5
I think the greatest thing about this episode is it typifies how well BtVS was able to do what Joss originally intended: create a series that could segue from humor to drama to action-adventure to horror and back seamlessly. And then add in the musical elements and we’re looking at an episode that pretty much exceeds his original goals. Somehow, even though I love this episode from a technical POV – in my heart it isn’t one of my favorites. Seeing Xander and Anya walking away from each other at the episode’s end, hearing D’Hoffryn casually remark the early season tagline, “From beneath you, it devours” and knowing Anya’s final fate…just depresses me. Now, other episodes are “tragic” but somehow, Anya’s fate bothers me more, because I don’t think she ever really had a chance… In reference to the Cask of Amontillado..it had been awhile since I read it… (awhile? Try 25 years-lol) so I surfed a bit. I think Spike’s reference wasn’t that he represented Montresor and Buffy represented Fortunato – but the reverse. According to Spring: which I thought could mean: Act like the one wronged here all you want/Play the part of the one betrayed…(and then, knowing the story, meaning) but you’re no better than I am…And it’s interesting that Montresor’s family motto is: "Nemo me impune lacessit" or "No one assails me with impunity." I agree with Rob that Buffy probably figured out Xander’s betrayal in Becoming, but it’s pretty clear Willow never knew. Like your thoughts on the Montresor thing, KMInfinity. I don't agree that Buffy figured out Xander's betrayal, but I definitely agree that she had it tucked away to "use it," and when she got cornered, she did use it.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jul 19, 2005 12:05:22 GMT -5
The Buffy-Xander argument is fascinating, and I won't go on about it here. yet. But there's one exchange I wanted to bring up: XANDER: Because you don't care about her the same way I do. Buffy, I still love her. BUFFY: I know. And that's why you can't see this for what it really is. "What is really is" turns out to be a cry for help. Willow sees that. Now does Buffy really see that? What is her interpretation of what's going on with Anya really? I'd like to draw another telling parallel - dialog in First DateBUFFY Things have been different since he came back.
GILES It doesn't matter if you're not physical with each other anymore. There's a connection. You rely on him, he relies on you. That's what's affecting your judgment. In Selfless she openly declares that love is weakness. In FD she tries hard to avoid confessing her feelings because she's sure that this confession will reveal her own weakness. But Giles knows her well enough so he doesn't buy evasive words. *********** Found some interesting stuff about the development of the episode. I'm especially impressed by the fact that Joss has been simultaneously directing Firefly pilot, breaking stories for BtVS and AtS *and* writing a song for Anya! www.drewgoddard.com/buffymaginterview.htmlwww.drewgoddard.com/dreamwatch.htmlVery very interesting point you make, Moscow Watcher. Wonderful comparison of Selfless and First Date. It seems to me that Buffy spends virtually all of season 6, and much of season 7, alternately avoiding and embracing (sometimes literally) the issue of love. Love of Spike, in particular, but also love for her friends and family. And I can sooooo understand why, even as it frustrates me - but that's because it's so like real life! It goes back to her experience with Angel, of course. And further back to her dad. It frustrates me because it also comes on the heels of season 5. Where the First Slayer told her she was made of love, to "love, give, forgive". When she loves her sister so much that she sacrifices her own life to save her (and the world). It really takes Buffy until the end of season 7 to begin to see how she can incorporate that idea into her life. Sometimes I think that's one of the main reasons I love the whole "share the slayerness over all potentials" thing. It's like . . . yes, Buffy finally gets to share some of the burden and responsibility, but the key word is "share" - she's also sharing the wonderful gift of slayernes. Share the love, as it were. Ah, well. I wandered off target a bit there, but then again, why not. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jul 19, 2005 12:17:48 GMT -5
*The Buffy-Xander argument is fascinating, and I won't go on about it here. yet. But there's one exchange I wanted to bring up: XANDER: Because you don't care about her the same way I do. Buffy, I still love her. BUFFY: I know. And that's why you can't see this for what it really is. This brief exchange is the most telling, as it makes it very clear that Buffy and Xander's positions are meant to be the reverse of those in "Becoming Part 2." The circumstances, of course, are quite different: unlike Angelus, Anya had no designs on the entire world's destruction OR killing anyone close to the Scoobs for the sheer pleasure of it. Those facts, however, aren't really all that relevant to the overall point, they're just a matter of degree. The similarity is clear: Xander desperately wanted Anya to revert back to her human self; Buffy hoped against hope that Angel could somehow regain his soul. Never mind the potentially disastrous consequences in the meantime. Anyway, I have definite opinions regarding that critical confrontation in "Selfless," but I have to sorta go off-topic to get there...eventually I'll get round to the on-topic point, I promise. I've mentioned this before many times, but for the purposes of this discussion, I'll delve into it once more: I've always believed Buffy is well aware of Xander's actions in "Becoming Part 2." She had an entire summer alone in LA to reflect upon every moment of those fateful days...and it didn't require Columbo to work out what had happened. Three reasons why Buffy knows: 1. Xander - after a hesitation - quotes Willow saying "kick his ass." Really now, who can imagine Willow using that sort of phrasing, especially at that time in the series? Buffy knows her better than that. More importantly, there is no possibility Willow would be that insensitive to Buffy's feelings under those particular circumstances. 2. Xander's not the most convincing of liars. He can do it, of course...but if Buffy had truly been paying attention, she knows him well enough to have spotted it. Truthfully, she was barely paying attention to him, totally in gameface at that moment. 3. Most obviously of all, Angel returns (far too late to make a difference in the end, I might add), making it patently obvious Willow was re-attempting the mojo. Buffy tells us she is aware of this in Season 3 when she informs Willow and Giles that the spell worked. Note that Xander was NOT in the library when she shared those specific circumstances. That, to me, is very telling. She wasn't ready for him to be around when discussing exactly what happened. Based on the above points, I firmly believe that over that summer in LA, Buffy chose to understand and forgive what Xander had done. She knew how lackadasically she'd fought Angelus in "Becoming Part 1," and probably realized he'd have killed her if Xander had delivered that message accurately. Is all this enormous fanwankery? Well...sure. But it's fanwankery with all sorts of logic to back it up...and it's a hell of a lot better than Joss chose to give us, which was basically nothing. Assuming all my theories are correct, Buffy forgave Xander...but forgot? No chance. Like most families, she tucked it away in her mind for some time in the future when she'd feel cornered. The argument in "Selfless" was the perfect time to pull it out of mental storage, and it hit Xander - not to mention every hardcore fan - like a sledgehammer. At that moment, the argument was effectively over. I love reading everyone's thoughts on this scene! Buffy and Xander both have been "saving up" some issues to throw at each other here - and, as you and others have said, the direct line back to "Becoming" is not coincidental. Whether or not Buffy knew the truth is interesting - because you can also "know" without letting yourself admit you know, all the while holding that deep inside. Everything in that scene is just so . . . perfectly choreographed and so painful! The way no one (not even herself) quite . . . trusts Willow yet. "Why didn't you tell us." "I know why." "When our friends go all crazy and start killing people, we help them" "Sitting right here!" Yep. Sitting right there, not really chiming in because she knows all too well the place Anya is at, no matter that Buffy says its different for her because she's human. Her final "I can't. I'm sorry." Followed by the funny and humiliating conversation with D'Hoffryn. Xander and Buffy. Man. What can I add that others haven't already said? The main thing I love love love about their conversation is the way . . . both are alternately right and wrong. And neither has the answer. "There has to be another way." "Then please find it." Lola
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jul 19, 2005 12:21:58 GMT -5
Promised I would remember the funny, too. So here are some of my favorite bits from the story of Aud and Olaf.
Olaf: Is it my imagination, or do we have substantially more rabbits in this house today?
Olaf: Bah! I've told you a thousand times; I have no interest in this Rannveig. Her hips are large and load bearing, like a Baltic woman. Your hips are narrow, like a Baltic woman from a slightly more arid region.
The whole village scene. Love the grainy film look, like we're watching an old beat up art film.
Village man: Troll! Village woman: It's the largest troll I've ever seen! Man: Run! Hide your babies and your beadwork! Olaf: Stop! Stop! It is Olaf! Man: The troll is doing an Olaf impersonation! Olaf: I am Olaf! Man: Hit him with fruits and various meats. Olaf: (running away) Aaarrrrgh! I am Olaf! (later) Olaf: (chasing a villager) Come here tiny man. You are small and toy like.
**snicker**
I love the Olaf and Anya stuff! Loved Triangle - love Selfless!
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on Jul 19, 2005 14:27:54 GMT -5
Today's trivia stumper:
What time period was the St. Petersburg scene with Halfrek originally supposed to be?
|
|
|
Post by Pixi on Jul 19, 2005 15:20:46 GMT -5
Promised I would remember the funny, too. So here are some of my favorite bits from the story of Aud and Olaf. Olaf: Is it my imagination, or do we have substantially more rabbits in this house today? Olaf: Bah! I've told you a thousand times; I have no interest in this Rannveig. Her hips are large and load bearing, like a Baltic woman. Your hips are narrow, like a Baltic woman from a slightly more arid region. The whole village scene. Love the grainy film look, like we're watching an old beat up art film. Village man: Troll! Village woman: It's the largest troll I've ever seen! Man: Run! Hide your babies and your beadwork! Olaf: Stop! Stop! It is Olaf! Man: The troll is doing an Olaf impersonation! Olaf: I am Olaf! Man: Hit him with fruits and various meats. Olaf: (running away) Aaarrrrgh! I am Olaf! (later) Olaf: (chasing a villager) Come here tiny man. You are small and toy like. **snicker** I love the Olaf and Anya stuff! Loved Triangle - love Selfless! I just want to say a big eetah on this. This was my favorite part of the episode because I thought the song - okay, while not being up to the OMWF standard and just a general distaste for all the Buffy law comments. But D'Hoffyn is just magnificent whenever he appears. Love the Abercombie and Fitch comment. Do you all know there is a Veronica Mars fic where D'Hoffryn is the one at the door? I almost died laughing just for the sheer inanity of reading it. Hee, hee. Ahem - a little off topic. I give complete kudos to EC's acting in this episode. It was terrific. I also loved the way JM teased us with the ahh - we're going to find out why Anya has bunnyphobia and then - huh - not so much. That villager scene made me what to throw fruits and vegetables. Or direct a scene where there was throwing of fruits and vegetables. Sadly - they tend to frown on that sort of scene in actual productions due to the potential for slippage, mess, insect invasion, etc.
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on Jul 19, 2005 16:23:44 GMT -5
Promised I would remember the funny, too. So here are some of my favorite bits from the story of Aud and Olaf. Olaf: Is it my imagination, or do we have substantially more rabbits in this house today? Olaf: Bah! I've told you a thousand times; I have no interest in this Rannveig. Her hips are large and load bearing, like a Baltic woman. Your hips are narrow, like a Baltic woman from a slightly more arid region. The whole village scene. Love the grainy film look, like we're watching an old beat up art film. Village man: Troll! Village woman: It's the largest troll I've ever seen! Man: Run! Hide your babies and your beadwork! Olaf: Stop! Stop! It is Olaf! Man: The troll is doing an Olaf impersonation! Olaf: I am Olaf! Man: Hit him with fruits and various meats. Olaf: (running away) Aaarrrrgh! I am Olaf! (later) Olaf: (chasing a villager) Come here tiny man. You are small and toy like. **snicker** I love the Olaf and Anya stuff! Loved Triangle - love Selfless! I just want to say a big eetah on this. This was my favorite part of the episode because I thought the song - okay, while not being up to the OMWF standard and just a general distaste for all the Buffy law comments. But D'Hoffyn is just magnificent whenever he appears. Love the Abercombie and Fitch comment. Do you all know there is a Veronica Mars fic where D'Hoffryn is the one at the door? I almost died laughing just for the sheer inanity of reading it. Hee, hee. Ahem - a little off topic. I give complete kudos to EC's acting in this episode. It was terrific. I also loved the way JM teased us with the ahh - we're going to find out why Anya has bunnyphobia and then - huh - not so much. That villager scene made me what to throw fruits and vegetables. Or direct a scene where there was throwing of fruits and vegetables. Sadly - they tend to frown on that sort of scene in actual productions due to the potential for slippage, mess, insect invasion, etc. Funny tidbit: I went to college with one of the villagers from that scene. I believe it was the guy who said: "Hit him with fruits and various meats."
|
|
|
Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 19, 2005 18:13:54 GMT -5
I also loved the way JM teased us with the ahh - we're going to find out why Anya has bunnyphobia and then - huh - not so much. I wanted to comment on this because point because I've seen it discussed a lot. To me, I feel like the episode pretty clearly explains Anya's bunnyphobia. It's a (comical, to be sure) counterpoint to Spike's recreation of himself from from "William" to "Spike" and the attempt to bury everything that identified him during his human existence. She's all about Bunnies and Socialism, then she's all about Vengeance and Communism and Not Good At Math, then she's all about Wifehood/Motherhood and Capitalism and Being Good At Math and Bunnyphobia. Just my $.02.
|
|
|
Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 19, 2005 18:16:33 GMT -5
The Buffy-Xander argument is fascinating, and I won't go on about it here. yet. But there's one exchange I wanted to bring up: XANDER: Because you don't care about her the same way I do. Buffy, I still love her. BUFFY: I know. And that's why you can't see this for what it really is. "What is really is" turns out to be a cry for help. Willow sees that. Now does Buffy really see that? What is her interpretation of what's going on with Anya really? I'd like to draw another telling parallel - dialog in First DateBUFFY Things have been different since he came back.
GILES It doesn't matter if you're not physical with each other anymore. There's a connection. You rely on him, he relies on you. That's what's affecting your judgment. In Selfless she openly declares that love is weakness. In FD she tries hard to avoid confessing her feelings because she's sure that this confession will reveal her own weakness. But Giles knows her well enough so he doesn't buy evasive words. *********** Found some interesting stuff about the development of the episode. I'm especially impressed by the fact that Joss has been simultaneously directing Firefly pilot, breaking stories for BtVS and AtS *and* writing a song for Anya! www.drewgoddard.com/buffymaginterview.htmlwww.drewgoddard.com/dreamwatch.htmlI love this connection between Selfless and First Date. It brings to mind the connection I've always seen between Anya's situation here and Spike's predicament in Sleeper and how Buffy's decision to help Spike in Sleeper represents such a nice step in the right direction for Buffy's character.
|
|
|
Post by Rob on Jul 19, 2005 19:29:14 GMT -5
I love this connection between Selfless and First Date. It brings to mind the connection I've always seen between Anya's situation here and Spike's predicament in Sleeper and how Buffy's decision to help Spike in Sleeper represents such a nice step in the right direction for Buffy's character. Also...Anya made it clear she didn't understand the differences between Buffy's decisions regarding herself and Spike...and Willow, for that matter. Considering the vampire in question, Anya surely assumed she could count on Xander to vocally oppose Buffy's position...but he didn't. He was too busy keeping the house together...literally and figuratively. Most character development on BTVS is pretty out front and obvious; the epic-sized journeys of Slayers, vampires, witches and werewolves make the travails of the everyday human being pale in comparison. And yet...can it be possible that by the end Xander had grown into the most emotionally mature and even-handed member of the Scooby Gang? He didn't truly get an episode all to himself after "The Replacement" way back in Season 5...but in bits and pieces, he developed as surely as the rest in his typically under the radar way. Here I am turning into Xander-apologist Rob again. Some things will never change, apparently.
|
|
|
Post by Rob on Jul 19, 2005 19:32:57 GMT -5
Today's trivia stumper: What time period was the St. Petersburg scene with Halfrek originally supposed to be? I'm thinking Russian Revolution of 1917, though maybe that's too obvious. What did Anya think of Rasputin, I wonder?
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jul 20, 2005 7:20:35 GMT -5
I just want to say a big eetah on this. This was my favorite part of the episode because I thought the song - okay, while not being up to the OMWF standard and just a general distaste for all the Buffy law comments. But D'Hoffyn is just magnificent whenever he appears. Love the Abercombie and Fitch comment. Do you all know there is a Veronica Mars fic where D'Hoffryn is the one at the door? I almost died laughing just for the sheer inanity of reading it. Hee, hee. Ahem - a little off topic. I give complete kudos to EC's acting in this episode. It was terrific. I also loved the way JM teased us with the ahh - we're going to find out why Anya has bunnyphobia and then - huh - not so much. That villager scene made me what to throw fruits and vegetables. Or direct a scene where there was throwing of fruits and vegetables. Sadly - they tend to frown on that sort of scene in actual productions due to the potential for slippage, mess, insect invasion, etc. Funny tidbit: I went to college with one of the villagers from that scene. I believe it was the guy who said: "Hit him with fruits and various meats." You always know the best people, Erin!
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jul 20, 2005 7:23:51 GMT -5
I also loved the way JM teased us with the ahh - we're going to find out why Anya has bunnyphobia and then - huh - not so much. I wanted to comment on this because point because I've seen it discussed a lot. To me, I feel like the episode pretty clearly explains Anya's bunnyphobia. It's a (comical, to be sure) counterpoint to Spike's recreation of himself from from "William" to "Spike" and the attempt to bury everything that identified him during his human existence. She's all about Bunnies and Socialism, then she's all about Vengeance and Communism and Not Good At Math, then she's all about Wifehood/Motherhood and Capitalism and Being Good At Math and Bunnyphobia. Just my $.02. Huh. I hadn't thought of it as being just like Spike reinventing himself before. I mean, I've always loved the way they showed all the opposites of Anya (loving and giving away the bunnies not in exchange for good and services, being all gung ho about the proletariate, etc.), but hadn't considered her as someone creating a new personality. Huh. And that kinda fits the theme of the ep, doesn't it? Anya worried there really is 'no one there' inside - wondering who she really is.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jul 20, 2005 7:29:32 GMT -5
I love this connection between Selfless and First Date. It brings to mind the connection I've always seen between Anya's situation here and Spike's predicament in Sleeper and how Buffy's decision to help Spike in Sleeper represents such a nice step in the right direction for Buffy's character. Also...Anya made it clear she didn't understand the differences between Buffy's decisions regarding herself and Spike...and Willow, for that matter. Considering the vampire in question, Anya surely assumed she could count on Xander to vocally oppose Buffy's position...but he didn't. He was too busy keeping the house together...literally and figuratively. Most character development on BTVS is pretty out front and obvious; the epic-sized journeys of Slayers, vampires, witches and werewolves make the travails of the everyday human being pale in comparison. And yet...can it be possible that by the end Xander had grown into the most emotionally mature and even-handed member of the Scooby Gang? He didn't truly get an episode all to himself after "The Replacement" way back in Season 5...but in bits and pieces, he developed as surely as the rest in his typically under the radar way. Here I am turning into Xander-apologist Rob again. Some things will never change, apparently. Not Xander-apologist. Xander-understander. Because you're right. The way Xander's character has grown is very apparent in season 7. Both in the external trappings of adult responsibility (job and car and taking care of others) but also in the way he isn't as "leap to judgement" as in earlier days or in the mature understanding he shows when talking to Dawn about her not being a potential. Because Xander has grown in the less exciting, more realistic way. Yes, influenced by his hellmouth-y slayer-helping experiences, but he's the "real guy" in the bunch. Xander as a grown-up is supposed to look much more like all of us as grown-ups.
|
|