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Post by Techno-bot on Jun 14, 2004 10:50:57 GMT -5
Written By: Drew Goddard
Directed By: David Solomon
Air date: 10/22/02
Anya deals with her Vengeance Demon Issues.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 17, 2005 18:12:12 GMT -5
Week three of the festival brings us our number 8 rated episode . . .
Selfless  What have I done?
Vengeance is what I am.
What if I'm really nobody?
That's a start.
And now . . . . discuss - squee - quote - celebrate to your heart's content!
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Post by Onjel on Jul 17, 2005 20:03:11 GMT -5
Week three of the festival brings us our number 8 rated episode . . .
Selfless What have I done?
Vengeance is what I am.
What if I'm really nobody?
That's a start.
And now . . . . discuss - squee - quote - celebrate to your heart's content!
I just love, love, love this episode! There were too few Anya centric episodes and we finally get some answers about her past in this one! I love the way Willow tries to save Anya from herself, and interrupts a conversation with Halfrek, telling Hallie to "get out"! Willow with her backbone, kinda like if you are not going to help, get the hell out of my library! Only now, she's a woman, with horrible experience behind her. Buffy, and her I have to kill Anya riff, kinda put me off. I mean, no chances? I was kinda with Xander, but when it came down to it, I think Buffy was less about the killing Anya than convincing her she done wrong. More to say when I can think about it. I will have to re-watch it, and comment some more, later. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 17, 2005 20:14:14 GMT -5
To me, Selfless is mostly about the Buffy/Anya parallels: Anya says she IS justice, Buffy says she IS the law; Anya sings a song suggesting Xander is her everything; Buffy makes a similar comment about Angel. Both are portrayed as taking a huge portion of their identies, of defining themselves, their lives, through their work and their "man," and being somewhat "selfless" without them.
We aren't coincidentally reminded of Becoming II - the ep where Buffy told Whistler she had nothing left to loose, and he told her no, she had one more thing. And we find out what that is: herself. And she's still coming back from that moment . . . and this really sets us up for the next ep, "Him," in which we watch Buffy truly begin to let go of high school, and chose Dawn over her "true love," RJ, and exhibit some understanding of the nature of infatuation and high-school romance, etc . . .
By the end of the season, Buffy is no longer defining herself or her life, either by her "Angel" or by her "Slayerhood." She's no longer "selfless." She's beginning to get in touch with her true center, and it's not about being the one and only "Chosen One," or having a one and only love.
Buffy's life, her happiness, her identity - she's taken control of them by the end. She's no longer selfless, and saying things about "being the law" or "never loving anyone again like Angel." In what I think is very deliberate contrast to the Buffy we see and hear in Selfless, she shares her power, and she speaks realistically to Angel about the far less than perfect relationship she had with him.
She's understood that what she makes of her life and herself is all up to her, and it's not about winning one battle, or having to have one love, or anything other than finding contentment inside yourself, and being open to giving and receiving love.
Anya, of course, dies. But she too has begun to find a meaning and a purpose to her life, that isn't dependent on being "Mrs Xander Harris," or being "vengeance."
There's a lot of things going on in this episode. But it is this aspect that stands out for me.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 17, 2005 21:25:37 GMT -5
God I love this episode. I'll come back later with more comments, but in the meantime, I wanted to pose a couple of questions that I've had for a long time just to get the discussion started. *The Cask of Amontillado reference story is here for everyone's edification: bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/poe/works/cask_amo.htmlI feel like an idiot that I don't entirely get this because there was this whole big thing about analyzing it in 7th grade. Spike identifies himself as Montresor and Buffy as Fortunado (Spike to Buffy "Scream Montresor all you like, pet.") In The story, Fortunado wrongs Montresor, so Montresor takes revenge by burying Montresor alive, and thus the revenge turns out to be worse than the crime (which is the theme, yay!). So, best I can figure is that according to Spike, Buffy wronged Spike (with the abuse) and then Spike wronged Buffy (with the AR). Spike makes the reference in response to Buffy telling him to get away from the bad vibes in the basement. So is Spike saying that what he did to her is worse than what she did to him so he deserves all the badness in the basement? Or something? That's all I got. I'm confuzzled. *The Buffy-Xander argument is fascinating, and I won't go on about it here. yet. But there's one exchange I wanted to bring up: XANDER: Because you don't care about her the same way I do. Buffy, I still love her. BUFFY: I know. And that's why you can't see this for what it really is. "What is really is" turns out to be a cry for help. Willow sees that. Now does Buffy really see that? What is her interpretation of what's going on with Anya really? *The Buffy/Anya fight scene. Possibly the only fight scene, next to Angel/Connor in Home, that makes me cry. What I find really intriguing is the expression on Buffy's face during the fight. What exactly was going in Buffy’s head during her fight with Anya? I'm just not sure where she was coming from. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 17, 2005 21:55:31 GMT -5
God I love this episode. I'll come back later with more comments, but in the meantime, I wanted to pose a couple of questions that I've had for a long time just to get the discussion started. *The Cask of Amontillado reference story is here for everyone's edification: bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/poe/works/cask_amo.htmlI feel like an idiot that I don't entirely get this because there was this whole big thing about analyzing it in 7th grade. Spike identifies himself as Montresor and Buffy as Fortunado (Spike to Buffy "Scream Montresor all you like, pet.") In The story, Fortunado wrongs Montresor, so Montresor takes revenge by burying Montresor alive, and thus the revenge turns out to be worse than the crime (which is the theme, yay!). So, best I can figure is that according to Spike, Buffy wronged Spike (with the abuse) and then Spike wronged Buffy (with the AR). Spike makes the reference in response to Buffy telling him to get away from the bad vibes in the basement. So is Spike saying that what he did to her is worse than what she did to him so he deserves all the badness in the basement? Or something? That's all I got. I'm confuzzled. Yeah. I remember catching that Cask of Amontillado reference right off, because that was one story that was burned into my head, for some reason. BUFFY: Spike. (he looks up, surprised) This basement is killing you. This is the hellmouth. There is something bad down here, possibly everything bad.
SPIKE: (laughs) Can't hear you. Can't hear you.
BUFFY: You have a soul? Fine. Show me.
SPIKE: Scream montresor all you like, pet.
BUFFY: Get up and get out of this basement.
SPIKE: I don't have anywhere else to go. Hmmm. I haven't seen this in AGES. But here's how it strikes me, having seen the ep once, and re-reading this now - Spike seems to be suggesting that . . . screaming won't make it so. Things can't get all better - for either one of them, they aren't getting out of the painful mess they've made for themselves, and for each other - just because Buffy insists on it. Getting out of the figurative basement is going to take more than shouting - to deaf ears - for rescue. He's certainly suggesting that he's helpless here . . . scream all she likes, makes no difference. He's got nowhere else to go. But - that suggestion that she, herself is looking for rescue is interesting and deliberate - and of course, she is doing that. Buffy - from the minute she first sees Spike in Lessons - gives me the impression that she wants to forgive him, and she wants to be forgiven. I remember the feeling that Buffy was trying to make up for how soft she'd been with Angel (who ends up killing Jenny) and then Spike (who ends up trying to rape her), by refusing to be soft with Anya. I remember the feeling that she was trying to prove something to herself . . . regain her view of herself as the hero, who knows right from wrong absolutely, and who acts on it. Again, I say all this without having rewatched since the ep first aired. So grains of salt must be liberally applied. |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 18, 2005 12:18:08 GMT -5
Week three of the festival brings us our number 8 rated episode . . .
Selfless What have I done?
Vengeance is what I am.
What if I'm really nobody?
That's a start.
And now . . . . discuss - squee - quote - celebrate to your heart's content!
I just love, love, love this episode! There were too few Anya centric episodes and we finally get some answers about her past in this one! I love the way Willow tries to save Anya from herself, and interrupts a conversation with Halfrek, telling Hallie to "get out"! Willow with her backbone, kinda like if you are not going to help, get the hell out of my library! Only now, she's a woman, with horrible experience behind her. Buffy, and her I have to kill Anya riff, kinda put me off. I mean, no chances? I was kinda with Xander, but when it came down to it, I think Buffy was less about the killing Anya than convincing her she done wrong. More to say when I can think about it. I will have to re-watch it, and comment some more, later. So much of that scene between Xander and Willow and Buffy, as they talk about what Buffy plans to do about Anya is so . . . well, it's all old bitternesses coming out. Old issues that have been stewing waaaay too long. After I re-watch again tonight, I think I may try to hack through that whole scene, figuing out all the ways they are pushing each others buttons and reacting to their own issues, not really reacting solely to what Anya did and what Buffy is planning to do. Every single one of them is sorta right, sorta wrong and totally hurting. |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 18, 2005 12:22:43 GMT -5
To me, Selfless is mostly about the Buffy/Anya parallels: Anya says she IS justice, Buffy says she IS the law; Anya sings a song suggesting Xander is her everything; Buffy makes a similar comment about Angel. Both are portrayed as taking a huge portion of their identies, of defining themselves, their lives, through their work and their "man," and being somewhat "selfless" without them. We aren't coincidentally reminded of Becoming II - the ep where Buffy told Whistler she had nothing left to loose, and he told her no, she had one more thing. And we find out what that is: herself. And she's still coming back from that moment . . . and this really sets us up for the next ep, "Him," in which we watch Buffy truly begin to let go of high school, and chose Dawn over her "true love," RJ, and exhibit some understanding of the nature of infatuation and high-school romance, etc . . . By the end of the season, Buffy is no longer defining herself or her life, either by her "Angel" or by her "Slayerhood." She's no longer "selfless." She's beginning to get in touch with her true center, and it's not about being the one and only "Chosen One," or having a one and only love. Buffy's life, her happiness, her identity - she's taken control of them by the end. She's no longer selfless, and saying things about "being the law" or "never loving anyone again like Angel." In what I think is very deliberate contrast to the Buffy we see and hear in Selfless, she shares her power, and she speaks realistically to Angel about the far less than perfect relationship she had with him. She's understood that what she makes of her life and herself is all up to her, and it's not about winning one battle, or having to have one love, or anything other than finding contentment inside yourself, and being open to giving and receiving love. Anya, of course, dies. But she too has begun to find a meaning and a purpose to her life, that isn't dependent on being "Mrs Xander Harris," or being "vengeance." There's a lot of things going on in this episode. But it is this aspect that stands out for me. Very very true about the Anya & Buffy parallels! The whole theme of "Selfless" is intriging, because, to some extent, the very nature of the Slayer's role requires some "selflessness". Some measure of sacrificing her own life to do her duty. It's just the how and why of that sacrifice that Buffy has to examine. As you mentioned, to find that meaning and purpose. 'Cuz the real her is there, once she digs it away from outside definitions. |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 18, 2005 12:30:27 GMT -5
<snipped> *The Buffy/Anya fight scene. Possibly the only fight scene, next to Angel/Connor in Home, that makes me cry. What I find really intriguing is the expression on Buffy's face during the fight. What exactly was going in Buffy’s head during her fight with Anya? I'm just not sure where she was coming from. Oh, my this is such a good/sad/hard to watch fight scene! Like the Buffy & Willow & Xander scence before it, there is such pain and hurt in them both and it comes out in such bitterness! I think Buffy's expression comes from that hurt that she needs to do this, and the incredible weight of duty she feels all season. That she sees this as one more part of this ultimate path she's on with this "final" showdown with evil. Plus, I also agree with those that she's also busy convincing herself that this is what needs to be done. And then final moments when Anya breaks down and says she wants to take it back! And Hallie! Soooooooo good and sad and wow! |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 18, 2005 12:33:09 GMT -5
So many funny bit in this one, too, gang! Love how the funny and the painful and the silly and the dramatic are intermixed!
After I re-watch, I must remember to post some of my favorite fun bits, 'cuz otherwise it's too easy for me to just leap into all the serious, deep meaning stuff and forget how Joss always mixes tragic and comic. Always!!
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Post by Queen E on Jul 18, 2005 12:36:34 GMT -5
Today's trivia question:
Can you name the early 90s sitcom Abraham Benrubi was in?
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Post by Rob on Jul 18, 2005 15:09:05 GMT -5
*The Buffy-Xander argument is fascinating, and I won't go on about it here. yet. But there's one exchange I wanted to bring up: XANDER: Because you don't care about her the same way I do. Buffy, I still love her. BUFFY: I know. And that's why you can't see this for what it really is. This brief exchange is the most telling, as it makes it very clear that Buffy and Xander's positions are meant to be the reverse of those in "Becoming Part 2." The circumstances, of course, are quite different: unlike Angelus, Anya had no designs on the entire world's destruction OR killing anyone close to the Scoobs for the sheer pleasure of it. Those facts, however, aren't really all that relevant to the overall point, they're just a matter of degree. The similarity is clear: Xander desperately wanted Anya to revert back to her human self; Buffy hoped against hope that Angel could somehow regain his soul. Never mind the potentially disastrous consequences in the meantime. Anyway, I have definite opinions regarding that critical confrontation in "Selfless," but I have to sorta go off-topic to get there...eventually I'll get round to the on-topic point, I promise.  I've mentioned this before many times, but for the purposes of this discussion, I'll delve into it once more: I've always believed Buffy is well aware of Xander's actions in "Becoming Part 2." She had an entire summer alone in LA to reflect upon every moment of those fateful days...and it didn't require Columbo to work out what had happened. Three reasons why Buffy knows: 1. Xander - after a hesitation - quotes Willow saying "kick his ass." Really now, who can imagine Willow using that sort of phrasing, especially at that time in the series? Buffy knows her better than that. More importantly, there is no possibility Willow would be that insensitive to Buffy's feelings under those particular circumstances. 2. Xander's not the most convincing of liars. He can do it, of course...but if Buffy had truly been paying attention, she knows him well enough to have spotted it. Truthfully, she was barely paying attention to him, totally in gameface at that moment. 3. Most obviously of all, Angel returns (far too late to make a difference in the end, I might add), making it patently obvious Willow was re-attempting the mojo. Buffy tells us she is aware of this in Season 3 when she informs Willow and Giles that the spell worked. Note that Xander was NOT in the library when she shared those specific circumstances. That, to me, is very telling. She wasn't ready for him to be around when discussing exactly what happened. Based on the above points, I firmly believe that over that summer in LA, Buffy chose to understand and forgive what Xander had done. She knew how lackadasically she'd fought Angelus in "Becoming Part 1," and probably realized he'd have killed her if Xander had delivered that message accurately. Is all this enormous fanwankery? Well...sure. But it's fanwankery with all sorts of logic to back it up...and it's a hell of a lot better than Joss chose to give us, which was basically nothing. Assuming all my theories are correct, Buffy forgave Xander...but forgot? No chance. Like most families, she tucked it away in her mind for some time in the future when she'd feel cornered. The argument in "Selfless" was the perfect time to pull it out of mental storage, and it hit Xander - not to mention every hardcore fan - like a sledgehammer. At that moment, the argument was effectively over. |
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Post by KMInfinity on Jul 18, 2005 21:38:37 GMT -5
I think the greatest thing about this episode is it typifies how well BtVS was able to do what Joss originally intended: create a series that could segue from humor to drama to action-adventure to horror and back seamlessly. And then add in the musical elements and we’re looking at an episode that pretty much exceeds his original goals.
Somehow, even though I love this episode from a technical POV – in my heart it isn’t one of my favorites. Seeing Xander and Anya walking away from each other at the episode’s end, hearing D’Hoffryn casually remark the early season tagline, “From beneath you, it devours” and knowing Anya’s final fate…just depresses me. Now, other episodes are “tragic” but somehow, Anya’s fate bothers me more, because I don’t think she ever really had a chance…
In reference to the Cask of Amontillado..it had been awhile since I read it… (awhile? Try 25 years-lol) so I surfed a bit. I think Spike’s reference wasn’t that he represented Montresor and Buffy represented Fortunato – but the reverse. According to Spring: which I thought could mean:
Act like the one wronged here all you want/Play the part of the one betrayed…(and then, knowing the story, meaning) but you’re no better than I am…
And it’s interesting that Montresor’s family motto is: "Nemo me impune lacessit" or "No one assails me with impunity."
I agree with Rob that Buffy probably figured out Xander’s betrayal in Becoming, but it’s pretty clear Willow never knew.
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Post by Onjel on Jul 18, 2005 22:20:00 GMT -5
<snipped> *The Buffy/Anya fight scene. Possibly the only fight scene, next to Angel/Connor in Home, that makes me cry. What I find really intriguing is the expression on Buffy's face during the fight. What exactly was going in Buffy’s head during her fight with Anya? I'm just not sure where she was coming from. Oh, my this is such a good/sad/hard to watch fight scene! Like the Buffy & Willow & Xander scence before it, there is such pain and hurt in them both and it comes out in such bitterness! I think Buffy's expression comes from that hurt that she needs to do this, and the incredible weight of duty she feels all season. That she sees this as one more part of this ultimate path she's on with this "final" showdown with evil. Plus, I also agree with those that she's also busy convincing herself that this is what needs to be done. And then final moments when Anya breaks down and says she wants to take it back! And Hallie! Soooooooo good and sad and wow! Oh yes! That fight scene was one of the saddest things to watch. Especially the looks on both their faces. I hated seeing them fighting to the death and I got the impression that Buffy knew very well that a sword through the chest would not kill Anya. I think she wanted to stop her so Anya would re-think things. |
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Post by Onjel on Jul 18, 2005 22:24:56 GMT -5
*The Buffy-Xander argument is fascinating, and I won't go on about it here. yet. But there's one exchange I wanted to bring up: XANDER: Because you don't care about her the same way I do. Buffy, I still love her. BUFFY: I know. And that's why you can't see this for what it really is. This brief exchange is the most telling, as it makes it very clear that Buffy and Xander's positions are meant to be the reverse of those in "Becoming Part 2." The circumstances, of course, are quite different: unlike Angelus, Anya had no designs on the entire world's destruction OR killing anyone close to the Scoobs for the sheer pleasure of it. Those facts, however, aren't really all that relevant to the overall point, they're just a matter of degree. The similarity is clear: Xander desperately wanted Anya to revert back to her human self; Buffy hoped against hope that Angel could somehow regain his soul. Never mind the potentially disastrous consequences in the meantime. Anyway, I have definite opinions regarding that critical confrontation in "Selfless," but I have to sorta go off-topic to get there...eventually I'll get round to the on-topic point, I promise. I've mentioned this before many times, but for the purposes of this discussion, I'll delve into it once more: I've always believed Buffy is well aware of Xander's actions in "Becoming Part 2." She had an entire summer alone in LA to reflect upon every moment of those fateful days...and it didn't require Columbo to work out what had happened. Three reasons why Buffy knows: 1. Xander - after a hesitation - quotes Willow saying "kick his ass." Really now, who can imagine Willow using that sort of phrasing, especially at that time in the series? Buffy knows her better than that. More importantly, there is no possibility Willow would be that insensitive to Buffy's feelings under those particular circumstances. 2. Xander's not the most convincing of liars. He can do it, of course...but if Buffy had truly been paying attention, she knows him well enough to have spotted it. Truthfully, she was barely paying attention to him, totally in gameface at that moment. 3. Most obviously of all, Angel returns (far too late to make a difference in the end, I might add), making it patently obvious Willow was re-attempting the mojo. Buffy tells us she is aware of this in Season 3 when she informs Willow and Giles that the spell worked. Note that Xander was NOT in the library when she shared those specific circumstances. That, to me, is very telling. She wasn't ready for him to be around when discussing exactly what happened. Based on the above points, I firmly believe that over that summer in LA, Buffy chose to understand and forgive what Xander had done. She knew how lackadasically she'd fought Angelus in "Becoming Part 1," and probably realized he'd have killed her if Xander had delivered that message accurately. Is all this enormous fanwankery? Well...sure. But it's fanwankery with all sorts of logic to back it up...and it's a hell of a lot better than Joss chose to give us, which was basically nothing. Assuming all my theories are correct, Buffy forgave Xander...but forgot? No chance. Like most families, she tucked it away in her mind for some time in the future when she'd feel cornered. The argument in "Selfless" was the perfect time to pull it out of mental storage, and it hit Xander - not to mention every hardcore fan - like a sledgehammer. At that moment, the argument was effectively over. Yes, yes, yes! I also feel that Buffy knew exactly what happened with Xander and the remark he attributed to Willow! And, yes, she chose to forgive him, but obviously not to forget it and it was key that there was a complete role reversal between her and Xander and she reminded him of that remar |
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