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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 5, 2003 0:28:51 GMT -5
The meaning of Liam Origin: Gaelic Meaning: Helmeted. Origin: German Meaning: Variant of William: Will-helmet. Famous Bearers: poet and playwright William Shakespeare (1564-1616) and William Wordsworth (1770-1850). Origin: Irish Meaning: The Irish diminutive of the name William. Origin: Teutonic Meaning: Resolute defender. I understand why JW gave them the same name in the first place, but at this point I feel like it is a bit "on the nose." How could Spike and Angel never have noticed this? Especially since Angel teases Spike about the name "William." Or maybe that was just Angelus doing the teasing. Maybe it's a sign of Angelus' self loathing? Hmm... It annoyed me, now I find it interesting. TLV
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makd on break quickly
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Post by makd on break quickly on Dec 5, 2003 9:59:21 GMT -5
Well, if/since William and Liam are from the same root, this comes to mind, from Season 5, Destiny, appropriately enough:
SIRK:..."There is a newly translated group of verses which may perhaps prove relevant. "The root of the tree will split in 2. And each thing will seek nourishment from the buried river."
So it's a false prophecy?
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Dec 5, 2003 10:55:41 GMT -5
Well, if/since William and Liam are from the same root, this comes to mind, from Season 5, Destiny, appropriately enough: SIRK:..."There is a newly translated group of verses which may perhaps prove relevant. "The root of the tree will split in 2. And each thing will seek nourishment from the buried river." So it's a false prophecy? The more I think about the prophecy, the more I think it's not a matter of it being true or not but of to what degree the words influence the behavior and attitudes of Angel, Spike and the people around them. Spike winning a fight against Angel for the first time has got to change the world around them in significant ways, because it changes them in significant ways. I also find myself wondering, suddenly, about the Senior Partners and their unique Apocalypse; do they control it, or is it just something they believe will come? Are the Senior Partners bringing the Apocalypse, or are they another group of True Believers (again, in Eric Hoffer's meaning of the term). Julia
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Post by Dev(Rob) on Dec 5, 2003 14:54:28 GMT -5
hrmph guess I was wrong then. Never mind. It's just having lived in the UK all my life I can say I have never met anyone called Liam as short for William! I have met a lot of Liams but non who are christened William or have it as an abreviated version of William. pfft @ the Irish Saying that I have an Irish Auntie but still, pffft @ the Irish!
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Post by Karen on Dec 5, 2003 15:24:29 GMT -5
I understand why JW gave them the same name in the first place, but at this point I feel like it is a bit "on the nose." How could Spike and Angel never have noticed this? Especially since Angel teases Spike about the name "William." Or maybe that was just Angelus doing the teasing. Maybe it's a sign of Angelus' self loathing? Hmm... It annoyed me, now I find it interesting. TLV I think you are right about Angelus teasing William because of his "self-loathing". Like Spike said, Angel didn't know him, he was too busy trying to see his own reflection. Also, I think Angel sees something in Spike that is lacking in himself and it makes him feel insecure. It never annoyed me, because I understood it somehow. Drusilla introduced William as "Willie" to Angelus. I think she was playing 2 sides against the middle. I think she picked William because he was so different from Angelus. She knew the trouble it would cause.
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Post by Karen on Dec 5, 2003 15:43:23 GMT -5
The more I think about the prophecy, the more I think it's not a matter of it being true or not but of to what degree the words influence the behavior and attitudes of Angel, Spike and the people around them. Spike winning a fight against Angel for the first time has got to change the world around them in significant ways, because it changes them in significant ways. I also find myself wondering, suddenly, about the Senior Partners and their unique Apocalypse; do they control it, or is it just something they believe will come? Are the Senior Partners bringing the Apocalypse, or are they another group of True Believers (again, in Eric Hoffer's meaning of the term). Julia In Reprise, Angel and the deceased Holland Manner have this conversation: Sounds like there are many apocalypses and the struggle is in the balance between good and evil. Angel needs to regain that balance in his own struggle within himself.
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 5, 2003 16:10:08 GMT -5
Drusilla introduced William as "Willie" to Angelus. I think she was playing 2 sides against the middle. I think she picked William because he was so different from Angelus. She knew the trouble it would cause. Not to disagree-just to elaborate- In the 2 part crossover episodes including "Fool for Love," we learn that Dru picks William because she sensed that he was the "Bravest and Wisest Knight in all the Land." (accept maybe for angel- oh the tension) Remember... (insert scooby sounds) Dru, Angel and Darla are walking along. Dru is angry that Angel and Darla have eachother and she is all alone (or at least a third wheel.) Dru says she's going to find herself "the bravest and wisest knight in all the land and make him my own." Then William stumbles into them, crying and ripping his sad little poem. Darla says something like, "or you could just turn the next idiot who walks by." Dru is suddenly interested in William (she's psychic, you know) and follows him into the alley. I've been irked a couple times at how often people, not you Karen- but others, damn them! often quote Darla when talking about why Dru made Spike, rather than quoting Drucilla. PS- one of these misguided mis-quoters is David frickin' Fury- on the frickin' "Fool for Love" commentary on the frickin' season 5 DVD! (Is is flaming if I've just had too much coffee?) Spike is a self made creature, but I beleive Dru saw something in him no one else did. Oh- what does this have to do with your post- I don't think William's differences from angel where why she chose William. So I guess I do disagree. Ick- I hate conflict, especially around the holidays! Why does she introduce him as "Willie?" Maybe just to underlined that there is a new cock, pardon, I mean rooster in the henhouse. TLV
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Dec 5, 2003 16:21:31 GMT -5
Not to disagree-just to elaborate- In the 2 part crossover episodes including "Fool for Love," we learn that Dru picks William because she sensed that he was the "Bravest and Wisest Knight in all the Land." (accept maybe for angel- oh the tension) Remember... (insert scooby sounds) Dru, Angel and Darla are walking along. Dru is angry that Angel and Darla have eachother and she is all alone (or at least a third wheel.) Dru says she's going to find herself "the bravest and wisest knight in all the land and make him my own." Then William stumbles into them, crying and ripping his sad little poem. Darla says something like, "or you could just turn the next idiot who walks by." Dru is suddenly interested in William (she's psychic, you know) and follows him into the alley. I've been irked a couple times at how often people, not you Karen- but others, damn them! often quote Darla when talking about why Dru made Spike, rather than quoting Drucilla. PS- one of these misguided mis-quoters is David frickin' Fury- on the frickin' "Fool for Love" commentary on the frickin' season 5 DVD! (Is is flaming if I've just had too much coffee?) Spike is a self made creature, but I beleive Dru saw something in him no one else did. Oh- what does this have to do with your post- I don't think William's differences from angel where why she chose William. So I guess I do disagree. Ick- I hate conflict, especially around the holidays! Why does she introduce him as "Willie?" Maybe just to underlined that there is a new cock, pardon, I mean rooster in the henhouse. TLV Thanks, that gets to something I've been thinking about this week: Dru's vision of the "burning baby fishes all around your head" and the visual of Spike being reconstituted from the amulet. I wonder if the cloud of sparks was intended to recall that line, or if it's just me, again? Julia, how far does Drusilla's sight go? Does she actually see Spike's role as Buffy's knight, as much as her own?
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 5, 2003 23:30:16 GMT -5
Thanks, that gets to something I've been thinking about this week: Dru's vision of the "burning baby fishes all around your head" and the visual of Spike being reconstituted from the amulet. I wonder if the cloud of sparks was intended to recall that line, or if it's just me, again? Julia, how far does Drusilla's sight go? Does she actually see Spike's role as Buffy's knight, as much as her own? Oops- that question was directed at julia, but I wanted to respond... I think Drucilla's sight transcends time. It's like in the scene where Angel locks her and Darla in with the lawyers (can't remember the episode's name)- she "sees what it (the building in that case) is built for." In fact, I now wonder if she realized that Spike is "the wisest... knight" in general- and not necessarily HER knight at all. More name fun... I just went back and watched the ep again. Whe she introduces William she says, "It's name is Willie." That's harsh. It sounds like she's naming her new sex toy. Later in the ep- Angel tells him he'd better "get a new name" so he can "strike the right amount of terror." I'd guess the name William does strike terror, but only for Angelus. I also noticed that William entered the Vampire world pretty self confident. He stands up to Angel in large and small ways right off the bat- even though it is obvious Angel is stronger and more powerful. I wonder of Dru, Angel and Darla didn't belittle and patronize William into thinking less of himself than he did to start with. When Spike is holdng that cross standing over Angel and says, "You never knew the real me." it made me think that Spike is only now learning about the real him, too. this ep shows the beginning and end of the big Spilliam self-confidence arc. Gotta run, not so eloquent. TLV
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Post by RAKSHA on Dec 6, 2003 7:28:56 GMT -5
Oops- that question was directed at julia, but I wanted to respond... I think Drucilla's sight transcends time. It's like in the scene where Angel locks her and Darla in with the lawyers (can't remember the episode's name)- she "sees what it (the building in that case) is built for." In fact, I now wonder if she realized that Spike is "the wisest... knight" in general- and not necessarily HER knight at all. More name fun... I just went back and watched the ep again. Whe she introduces William she says, "It's name is Willie." That's harsh. It sounds like she's naming her new sex toy. Later in the ep- Angel tells him he'd better "get a new name" so he can "strike the right amount of terror." I'd guess the name William does strike terror, but only for Angelus. I also noticed that William entered the Vampire world pretty self confident. He stands up to Angel in large and small ways right off the bat- even though it is obvious Angel is stronger and more powerful. I wonder of Dru, Angel and Darla didn't belittle and patronize William into thinking less of himself than he did to start with. When Spike is holdng that cross standing over Angel and says, "You never knew the real me." it made me think that Spike is only now learning about the real him, too. this ep shows the beginning and end of the big Spilliam self-confidence arc. Gotta run, not so eloquent. TLV Good post, LittleVamp!
It's interesting that Our Effulgent Prince is now becoming the person that William always (in my opinion) had the potential to be (minus the physical super-strength and enhanced sense of smell of course), while poor Angel is still stuck in a sort of psychic roadblock. Not without incredible sacrifice on William's part, though. And one wonders if Spike could still even try to fight the good fight if he had been through what Angel went through with Connor (who, I'm convinced, Angel loved more than he had ever loved anyone, including Buffy). Spike came close though, with Buffy's having mistreated him so badly in S6.
You're right that new-vamp William was a tough little cookie right off the bat, quickly adapting to his new circumstances and trying to out-macho The Great And Powerful Angelus with the fist-in-the-sunlight maneuver. Angelus WAS amused and, I'm convinced, did like his new grandchild; perhaps that's one reason he deliberately hurt William by flaunting the sex with Drusilla. (the other reason was foreshadowed when Angelus first meets William; Angelus seems peeved that Darla ran off to Daddy-the Master-and says they argued, and mentions 'tit for tat' - which I took to mean he would have sex with Drusilla to get back at Darla)
Angelus doesn't like having human emotions; if he had any liking towards William, he probably felt compelled to beat it down by going into super-Alpha-vamp mode and pushing his new friend into the Omega position in the pack in the least subtle and most hurtful of ways.
GAIL
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Post by Karen on Dec 6, 2003 11:45:06 GMT -5
Not to disagree-just to elaborate- In the 2 part crossover episodes including "Fool for Love," we learn that Dru picks William because she sensed that he was the "Bravest and Wisest Knight in all the Land." (accept maybe for angel- oh the tension) Remember... (insert scooby sounds) Dru, Angel and Darla are walking along. Dru is angry that Angel and Darla have eachother and she is all alone (or at least a third wheel.) Dru says she's going to find herself "the bravest and wisest knight in all the land and make him my own." Then William stumbles into them, crying and ripping his sad little poem. Darla says something like, "or you could just turn the next idiot who walks by." Dru is suddenly interested in William (she's psychic, you know) and follows him into the alley. I've been irked a couple times at how often people, not you Karen- but others, damn them! often quote Darla when talking about why Dru made Spike, rather than quoting Drucilla. PS- one of these misguided mis-quoters is David frickin' Fury- on the frickin' "Fool for Love" commentary on the frickin' season 5 DVD! (Is is flaming if I've just had too much coffee?) Spike is a self made creature, but I beleive Dru saw something in him no one else did. Oh- what does this have to do with your post- I don't think William's differences from angel where why she chose William. So I guess I do disagree. Ick- I hate conflict, especially around the holidays! Why does she introduce him as "Willie?" Maybe just to underlined that there is a new cock, pardon, I mean rooster in the henhouse. TLV Not conflict - discussion, right? I agree Spike is a self-made creature. A lot of who he is and what he has done in the past was directly in response to what Drusilla wanted. She liked to eat babies and was there supporting her in her wishes. I also think that Drusilla picked Spike because she saw in him her "brave knight". I also think that she loathed Angelus at some level. She may have been insane, but she wasn't stupid. She might have known that her "shining knight" would someday challenge Angelus. We've seen Spike challenge Angel quite a bit, lately - for things both important to Angel and not so important. When Drusilla turned Darla, there was such a look of victory on her face as she watched Angel as he looked on in horror. I don't think it was just loathing for Angel that made her victory so sweet. I think it was also her loathing for Angelus. I'd like her to come to LA, because I do like the conflict.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Dec 6, 2003 12:27:24 GMT -5
Not conflict - discussion, right? I agree Spike is a self-made creature. A lot of who he is and what he has done in the past was directly in response to what Drusilla wanted. She liked to eat babies and was there supporting her in her wishes. I also think that Drusilla picked Spike because she saw in him her "brave knight". I also think that she loathed Angelus at some level. She may have been insane, but she wasn't stupid. She might have known that her "shining knight" would someday challenge Angelus. We've seen Spike challenge Angel quite a bit, lately - for things both important to Angel and not so important. When Drusilla turned Darla, there was such a look of victory on her face as she watched Angel as he looked on in horror. I don't think it was just loathing for Angel that made her victory so sweet. I think it was also her loathing for Angelus. I'd like her to come to LA, because I do like the conflict. I think you're right on about Drusilla loathing Angelus/Angel on some levels. The fact that she seems to be looking more at him, in defiance, when she sweeps into the motel room to turn Darla, and her whole attitude when she brings William into the Ambassador's rooms in "Destiny" seem to indicate that she loves getting under his skin whenever possible. Julia, now that I think of it, the bit about the thing in the Museum in Becoming 1 can look like her having him on more than a little bit, too
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 6, 2003 12:37:04 GMT -5
Good post, LittleVamp!
It's interesting that Our Effulgent Prince is now becoming the person that William always (in my opinion) had the potential to be (minus the physical super-strength and enhanced sense of smell of course), while poor Angel is still stuck in a sort of psychic roadblock. Not without incredible sacrifice on William's part, though. And one wonders if Spike could still even try to fight the good fight if he had been through what Angel went through with Connor (who, I'm convinced, Angel loved more than he had ever loved anyone, including Buffy). Spike came close though, with Buffy's having mistreated him so badly in S6.
You're right that new-vamp William was a tough little cookie right off the bat, quickly adapting to his new circumstances and trying to out-macho The Great And Powerful Angelus with the fist-in-the-sunlight maneuver. Angelus WAS amused and, I'm convinced, did like his new grandchild; perhaps that's one reason he deliberately hurt William by flaunting the sex with Drusilla. (the other reason was foreshadowed when Angelus first meets William; Angelus seems peeved that Darla ran off to Daddy-the Master-and says they argued, and mentions 'tit for tat' - which I took to mean he would have sex with Drusilla to get back at Darla)
Angelus doesn't like having human emotions; if he had any liking towards William, he probably felt compelled to beat it down by going into super-Alpha-vamp mode and pushing his new friend into the Omega position in the pack in the least subtle and most hurtful of ways.
GAIL Ugh- I just wrote this, but had forgotten to log in! I'll condense. Just realized, Angel's "psychic roadblock" of self loathing came with him all the wasy from his Liam days.. Kind've a defining characteristic. That means the Shanshu may be a "power suck" for Angel, as the folks on the "Cinco" thread have pointed out. Angel is looking for an outside force to take away the self loathing, he needs to do that work himself. Daddy's just not going to come back and say, you're OK. I thought "tit for tat" was about him beating up Darla when she returned (he touched a cut on his face when he said it.) This is William's first insight or lesson in Vampire romantic relationships. Yes, Angel feels out daddied by the master- ITA, thanks. What's up with the homoerotic action? Is angel threatening William, testing his boundaries? Hot, yes! Transparent, no. TLV
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 6, 2003 12:42:10 GMT -5
I think you're right on about Drusilla loathing Angelus/Angel on some levels. The fact that she seems to be looking more at him, in defiance, when she sweeps into the motel room to turn Darla, and her whole attitude when she brings William into the Ambassador's rooms in "Destiny" seem to indicate that she loves getting under his skin whenever possible. Julia, now that I think of it, the bit about the thing in the Museum in Becoming 1 can look like her having him on more than a little bit, too Isn't loathing and loving kind've the same thing in the vampire world? Angel is just more e-vil than Spike, and for her that makes him"more." - the scene in season 2 of Buffy when Spike gives her a necklace for Valentines Day, then Angel gives her a still-warm human heart- it's obvious which gift gets her going more. TLV
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 6, 2003 12:46:42 GMT -5
Not conflict - discussion, right? I agree Spike is a self-made creature. A lot of who he is and what he has done in the past was directly in response to what Drusilla wanted. She liked to eat babies and was there supporting her in her wishes. I also think that Drusilla picked Spike because she saw in him her "brave knight". I also think that she loathed Angelus at some level. She may have been insane, but she wasn't stupid. She might have known that her "shining knight" would someday challenge Angelus. We've seen Spike challenge Angel quite a bit, lately - for things both important to Angel and not so important. When Drusilla turned Darla, there was such a look of victory on her face as she watched Angel as he looked on in horror. I don't think it was just loathing for Angel that made her victory so sweet. I think it was also her loathing for Angelus. I'd like her to come to LA, because I do like the conflict. Yep, Dru hates Angel and wants to mess with him. It's sad to see William used as a pawn- but at least Dru was smart enough to choose a good pawn. TLV ps- On my conflict paranoia- I used to live with someone who seemed mild mannered during the day, then would flame like a crazed lunatic all evening on message boards. It scarred me. I'm working through the fear. ;D
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