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Post by Karen on Dec 6, 2003 13:12:53 GMT -5
Isn't loathing and loving kind've the same thing in the vampire world? Angel is just more e-vil than Spike, and for her that makes him"more." - the scene in season 2 of Buffy when Spike gives her a necklace for Valentines Day, then Angel gives her a still-warm human heart- it's obvious which gift gets her going more. TLV Yes, Angel knew how to speak to Drusilla's heart, but I don't think that she loved him for it. I'm glad your friend got their anger out on the message boards instead of rl. But it does kinda make you wonder what we are all like under the skin and how the "mask" of a message board can make our baser or maybe just "honest" instincts come out to play.
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 6, 2003 13:27:44 GMT -5
Yes, Angel knew how to speak to Drusilla's heart, but I don't think that she loved him for it. I'm glad your friend got their anger out on the message boards instead of rl. But it does kinda make you wonder what we are all like under the skin and how the "mask" of a message board can make our baser or maybe just "honest" instincts come out to play. I think he should have been in therapy instead. I don't think one should say anything online they wouldn't say to a real person (because they are saying it to a real person!.) It's nice to escape from your life on a message board (hey-doin' it right now!) but I think it's messed up to use the internet to escape from your conscience or consideration for others.
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Post by Karen on Dec 6, 2003 14:50:40 GMT -5
I think he should have been in therapy instead. I don't think one should say anything online they wouldn't say to a real person (because they are saying it to a real person!.) It's nice to escape from your life on a message board (hey-doin' it right now!) but I think it's messed up to use the internet to escape from your conscience or consideration for others. ITA.
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Post by RAKSHA on Dec 6, 2003 17:32:31 GMT -5
Ugh- I just wrote this, but had forgotten to log in! I'll condense. Just realized, Angel's "psychic roadblock" of self loathing came with him all the wasy from his Liam days.. Kind've a defining characteristic. That means the Shanshu may be a "power suck" for Angel, as the folks on the "Cinco" thread have pointed out. Angel is looking for an outside force to take away the self loathing, he needs to do that work himself. Daddy's just not going to come back and say, you're OK. I thought "tit for tat" was about him beating up Darla when she returned (he touched a cut on his face when he said it.) This is William's first insight or lesson in Vampire romantic relationships. Yes, Angel feels out daddied by the master- ITA, thanks. What's up with the homoerotic action? Is angel threatening William, testing his boundaries? Hot, yes! Transparent, no. TLV Hmm. I hadn't thought that Angelus' 'tit for tat' remark was about giving the missus a good whupping when she got back (though to be fair, I think vampire domestic relations do involve a fair bit of violence between partners), but maybe it did. Still think it was also about sleeping with Dru in revenge for Darla rejecting Angelus' wishes and going back to ol' batface her Daddy when summoned 'home'.
I'm still not sure whether the fist-in-sunlight ritual wasa homoerotic ritual or merely a dominance display. Maybe a bit of both, or the answer was always meant to be in the eye of the beholder. Though I think that William would not have been ready for a sexual relationship with a male until he'd had a few more years of anti-social homicidal fun, given William's upbringing.
I'm still intrigued by the strong sense of friendship, camaraderie and liking between William and Angelus. They were really enjoying all that male-bonded mayhem/homicide. I think Spike really did admire and like Angelus, even though there was anger and jealousy in the mix after he found out about Angelus' rules of familial sexual partnership - i.e. no one belongs to anyone, no one deserves anything, you get what you can take.
Speaking of 'Want. Take. Have', has anyone noticed that Angel forgave and sheltered Faith after she had nearly killed him a few times and tortured Wesley? Faith had a soul. Yet when Spike turned up as a confused and terrified ghost, not there to kill Angel but there because he had nowhere else he could go, Angel utterly rejected him? Goes to what I was saying about Angel being able to easily help and forgive attractive female 'monsters'. The jealousy that Angel felt over Buffy also hardened his heart against Spike...
It was just so sad when Spike, haunted by imminent horror (as in being sucked into somewhere unpleasant) in HELLBOUND, makes a deliberate visit to Angel's office. It seemed like he was searching for some shred of his grandsire's regard, as a comfort against the coming horror...Maybe he hoped that Angel would offer him more support, though he couldn't bring himself to ask for it.
I hope that future episodes will soften Angel's heart a bit towards Spike. I enjoy the snarking and the banter between them a lot, but Angel's coldness was disturbing, since I know that he's capable of forgiving those who have done wrong in the past and he knew that Spike had a soul (unlike the revamped Darla) and had fought on the side of the Slayers.[glow=brown,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by Wendy on Dec 6, 2003 17:36:39 GMT -5
Not conflict - discussion, right? I agree Spike is a self-made creature. A lot of who he is and what he has done in the past was directly in response to what Drusilla wanted. She liked to eat babies and was there supporting her in her wishes. I also think that Drusilla picked Spike because she saw in him her "brave knight". I also think that she loathed Angelus at some level. She may have been insane, but she wasn't stupid. She might have known that her "shining knight" would someday challenge Angelus. We've seen Spike challenge Angel quite a bit, lately - for things both important to Angel and not so important. When Drusilla turned Darla, there was such a look of victory on her face as she watched Angel as he looked on in horror. I don't think it was just loathing for Angel that made her victory so sweet. I think it was also her loathing for Angelus. I'd like her to come to LA, because I do like the conflict.
I think Drusilla is a very interesting character. Upon first meeting Dru, we see that not only is she a little crazy, but she is also part of the first vampire couple we have seen that has loving feelings. The Judge senses humanity in both her and Spike because they share affection and jealousy. Up to this point, who knew that vampires could love? The Judge senses no humanity in Angelus at all. He has no love for Drusilla. It's hard to know if Drusilla had affectionate feelings before siring William, but it is clear she has them subsequent to the siring, as sensed by The Judge. It is also clear that Dru harbors some loathing towards Angelus from this exchange we see in What's My Line Part 2: DRUSILLA: The lamb is caught in the blackberry patch. (approaches Angel with Holy Water) My mummy ate lemons. Raw. She said she loved the way they made her mouth... tingle. Little Anne. (pours some on him) Her favorite was custard... brandied pears. ANGEL: Dru... DRUSILLA: (sternly) Shhh! And pomegranates. They used to make her face and fingers aaall red. (more pouring) Remember? Hmm? Little fingers. Little hands. Do you? ANGEL: (in pain) If I could... DRUSILLA: (interrupts angrily) Bite your tongue! They used to eat cake, and eggs, and honey. Until you came and ripped their throats out. (pours the rest) DRUSILLA: Say 'Uncle'. (lowering pitcher of Holy Water) Oh, that's right, you killed my uncle. At some lucid point in Drusilla's unlife, she has given thought to the things Angelus did to her family. It is her resentment toward Angelus's cruelty to her family that fuels her torture of him. So what does this all mean? Did she develop humanity after being with Spike for 100 years or were these feelings there all along and only with Spike around is she able to express these feelings. It seems that vampires generally go and kill their family first thing (ie Angelus and Penn.) Yet Drusilla is angry her family is massacred and William sires his mother right off in an act of humanity to save her from her certain death from consumption. It's no wonder she looks at Angel victoriously as she sires Darla. She finally has the chance to take something from him in the same way he took her family and then her soul from her.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Dec 6, 2003 21:28:59 GMT -5
I think Drusilla is a very interesting character. Upon first meeting Dru, we see that not only is she a little crazy, but she is also part of the first vampire couple we have seen that has loving feelings. The Judge senses humanity in both her and Spike because they share affection and jealousy. Up to this point, who knew that vampires could love? The Judge senses no humanity in Angelus at all. He has no love for Drusilla. It's hard to know if Drusilla had affectionate feelings before siring William, but it is clear she has them subsequent to the siring, as sensed by The Judge. It is also clear that Dru harbors some loathing towards Angelus from this exchange we see in What's My Line Part 2: DRUSILLA: The lamb is caught in the blackberry patch. (approaches Angel with Holy Water) My mummy ate lemons. Raw. She said she loved the way they made her mouth... tingle. Little Anne. (pours some on him) Her favorite was custard... brandied pears. ANGEL: Dru... DRUSILLA: (sternly) Shhh! And pomegranates. They used to make her face and fingers aaall red. (more pouring) Remember? Hmm? Little fingers. Little hands. Do you? ANGEL: (in pain) If I could... DRUSILLA: (interrupts angrily) Bite your tongue! They used to eat cake, and eggs, and honey. Until you came and ripped their throats out. (pours the rest) DRUSILLA: Say 'Uncle'. (lowering pitcher of Holy Water) Oh, that's right, you killed my uncle. At some lucid point in Drusilla's unlife, she has given thought to the things Angelus did to her family. It is her resentment toward Angelus's cruelty to her family that fuels her torture of him. So what does this all mean? Did she development humanity after being with Spike for 100 years or were these feelings there all along and only with Spike around is she able to express these feelings. It seems that vampires generally go and kill their family first thing (ie Angelus and Penn.) Yet Drusilla is angry her family is massacred and William sires his mother right off in an act of humanity to save her from her certain death from consumption. It's no wonder she looks at Angel victoriously as she sires Darla. She finally has the chance to take something from him in the same way he took her family and then her soul from her. Of course, she's bringing these things up with Angel, because she knows they bother him; Angelus would find them amusing, if anything. Bringing William "home" is another matter; it's pure trouble-making against her Daddy, since William is, in so many ways, the opposite of Angelus in physical and mental type. Julia, reminded of more real-life situations than she's likely to lay out here
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 7, 2003 14:20:53 GMT -5
Hmm. I hadn't thought that Angelus' 'tit for tat' remark was about giving the missus a good whupping when she got back (though to be fair, I think vampire domestic relations do involve a fair bit of violence between partners), but maybe it did. Still think it was also about sleeping with Dru in revenge for Darla rejecting Angelus' wishes and going back to ol' batface her Daddy when summoned 'home'.
I'm still not sure whether the fist-in-sunlight ritual wasa homoerotic ritual or merely a dominance display. Maybe a bit of both, or the answer was always meant to be in the eye of the beholder. Though I think that William would not have been ready for a sexual relationship with a male until he'd had a few more years of anti-social homicidal fun, given William's upbringing.
I'm still intrigued by the strong sense of friendship, camaraderie and liking between William and Angelus. They were really enjoying all that male-bonded mayhem/homicide. I think Spike really did admire and like Angelus, even though there was anger and jealousy in the mix after he found out about Angelus' rules of familial sexual partnership - i.e. no one belongs to anyone, no one deserves anything, you get what you can take.
Speaking of 'Want. Take. Have', has anyone noticed that Angel forgave and sheltered Faith after she had nearly killed him a few times and tortured Wesley? Faith had a soul. Yet when Spike turned up as a confused and terrified ghost, not there to kill Angel but there because he had nowhere else he could go, Angel utterly rejected him? Goes to what I was saying about Angel being able to easily help and forgive attractive female 'monsters'. The jealousy that Angel felt over Buffy also hardened his heart against Spike...
It was just so sad when Spike, haunted by imminent horror (as in being sucked into somewhere unpleasant) in HELLBOUND, makes a deliberate visit to Angel's office. It seemed like he was searching for some shred of his grandsire's regard, as a comfort against the coming horror...Maybe he hoped that Angel would offer him more support, though he couldn't bring himself to ask for it.
I hope that future episodes will soften Angel's heart a bit towards Spike. I enjoy the snarking and the banter between them a lot, but Angel's coldness was disturbing, since I know that he's capable of forgiving those who have done wrong in the past and he knew that Spike had a soul (unlike the revamped Darla) and had fought on the side of the Slayers.[glow=brown,2,300]GAIL [/glow] I , too, was sad to see ANgel so callous to Spike. Maybe Angel becomming nicer to Spike will co-incide with some sort of breakthrough about his dad, and his own fatherlyness towards Spike I've been thinking that spike's gaining back his self confidence is a direct result of beating Angel- the one person who most pounded him down. Notice in "School Hard" through season 6, we see Spike with a lot of barvado and swagger, knowing it must be covering for something. Before this ep, I though he was covering for William the Poet. Now we know his swagger is to protect the wounded William the Vampire. after 100 years out of Angel's shadow- he is still the same rebellious son. Unfortunately, Angel's dad is not comming back (or is he .) Like Darla said, "Your victory over him lasted only a moment, but his victory over you will last an eternity.) I know Angel hates spike for all the reasons spike listed, but the real reason he can't forgive himself or spike is because it all tyed into the loop track in his head of his rappport with his dad. Fun stuff, TLV
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Dec 7, 2003 17:20:22 GMT -5
I , too, was sad to see ANgel so callous to Spike. Maybe Angel becomming nicer to Spike will co-incide with some sort of breakthrough about his dad, and his own fatherlyness towards Spike I've been thinking that spike's gaining back his self confidence is a direct result of beating Angel- the one person who most pounded him down. Notice in "School Hard" through season 6, we see Spike with a lot of barvado and swagger, knowing it must be covering for something. Before this ep, I though he was covering for William the Poet. Now we know his swagger is to protect the wounded William the Vampire. after 100 years out of Angel's shadow- he is still the same rebellious son. Unfortunately, Angel's dad is not comming back (or is he .) Like Darla said, "Your victory over him lasted only a moment, but his victory over you will last an eternity.) I know Angel hates spike for all the reasons spike listed, but the real reason he can't forgive himself or spike is because it all tyed into the loop track in his head of his rappport with his dad. Fun stuff, TLV I find it entirely possible that Angel's contempt for Spike is part old habit, and part an extension of his self-loathing. "Great, another souled vampire, and look what a great big success I am at that already". Julia, another hmmmmmm
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 8, 2003 8:19:56 GMT -5
I find it entirely possible that Angel's contempt for Spike is part old habit, and part an extension of his self-loathing. "Great, another souled vampire, and look what a great big success I am at that already". Julia, another hmmmmmm Just a thought on the tit-for-tat - Angel, in taking Dru to hurt Spike, is doing what he perceives the Master does to him. Angel is feeling pushed aside by Darla in favor of her sire, so he does to William what the Master has done to him. He is getting back at Darla and at the Master, and giving himself a feeling of control (being in charge instead of pushed aside), by hurting William (his "grandchild") as he himself has been hurt by his own grandsire (the Master). He can't control Darla or The Master, but he can control Dru and William. It's classic keep-it-in-the-family cyclical abuse, vampire-style.
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Post by Nickim on Dec 8, 2003 9:54:58 GMT -5
I think Drusilla is a very interesting character. Upon first meeting Dru, we see that not only is she a little crazy, but she is also part of the first vampire couple we have seen that has loving feelings. The Judge senses humanity in both her and Spike because they share affection and jealousy. Up to this point, who knew that vampires could love? The Judge senses no humanity in Angelus at all. He has no love for Drusilla. It's hard to know if Drusilla had affectionate feelings before siring William, but it is clear she has them subsequent to the siring, as sensed by The Judge. It is also clear that Dru harbors some loathing towards Angelus from this exchange we see in What's My Line Part 2: DRUSILLA: The lamb is caught in the blackberry patch. (approaches Angel with Holy Water) My mummy ate lemons. Raw. She said she loved the way they made her mouth... tingle. Little Anne. (pours some on him) Her favorite was custard... brandied pears. ANGEL: Dru... DRUSILLA: (sternly) Shhh! And pomegranates. They used to make her face and fingers aaall red. (more pouring) Remember? Hmm? Little fingers. Little hands. Do you? ANGEL: (in pain) If I could... DRUSILLA: (interrupts angrily) Bite your tongue! They used to eat cake, and eggs, and honey. Until you came and ripped their throats out. (pours the rest) DRUSILLA: Say 'Uncle'. (lowering pitcher of Holy Water) Oh, that's right, you killed my uncle. At some lucid point in Drusilla's unlife, she has given thought to the things Angelus did to her family. It is her resentment toward Angelus's cruelty to her family that fuels her torture of him. So what does this all mean? Did she development humanity after being with Spike for 100 years or were these feelings there all along and only with Spike around is she able to express these feelings. It seems that vampires generally go and kill their family first thing (ie Angelus and Penn.) Yet Drusilla is angry her family is massacred and William sires his mother right off in an act of humanity to save her from her certain death from consumption. It's no wonder she looks at Angel victoriously as she sires Darla. She finally has the chance to take something from him in the same way he took her family and then her soul from her. Very good points. I was thinking along this same line myself. Not only did Angelus kill Dru's family, he made her insane before he turned her. Angelus & Darla are having sex right in front of her--a sweet, innocent, terrified young girl. I'm sure if she has any sane moments, she would like to punish Angelus for what he did to her. Turning Darla, while Angel is forced to watch, helpless to prevent it, was probably sweet revenge for Drusilla.
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Post by RAKSHA on Dec 8, 2003 20:48:58 GMT -5
Very good points. I was thinking along this same line myself. Not only did Angelus kill Dru's family, he made her insane before he turned her. Angelus & Darla are having sex right in front of her--a sweet, innocent, terrified young girl. I'm sure if she has any sane moments, she would like to punish Angelus for what he did to her. Turning Darla, while Angel is forced to watch, helpless to prevent it, was probably sweet revenge for Drusilla. I have always felt sorry for Drusilla. That wouldn't prevent me, if I were a Slayer, from staking her at the first opportunity - the lady is dangerous as well as pathetic.
Didn't Angelus kill the nuns at the convent where Drusilla had taken refuge after he killed her family?
It was rather stupid of Angelus to drive Dru crazy before turning her. You don't find an innocent and attractive young girl with the Sight every day - one would think he would have turned her instantly to have a child with clear sight in the 'family' instead of the muddled visions that crazy Dru would have.
But then, Angelus should have killed Buffy when he had the chance. Angelus was a bit more in love with his own nastiness than was good or sensible for him, the pillock...[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by RAKSHA on Dec 8, 2003 20:56:17 GMT -5
Moloch is plaguing me no end tonight, giving me that 'Too many connections' sign every other minute. That's why there's a duplicate of my last post - and I cannot delete it. Will do so later. Hope I can get this post up without having to press the post button more than once... GAIL
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Post by WinterDreamer on Dec 9, 2003 19:13:42 GMT -5
I think he should have been in therapy instead. I don't think one should say anything online they wouldn't say to a real person (because they are saying it to a real person!.) It's nice to escape from your life on a message board (hey-doin' it right now!) but I think it's messed up to use the internet to escape from your conscience or consideration for others. I have to say that you have picked the right place to escape to. It's the people on boards like this that make it fun to agree AND disagree. Yay S'cubies!
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Post by WinterDreamer on Dec 9, 2003 19:40:03 GMT -5
I'm still not sure whether the fist-in-sunlight ritual was a homoerotic ritual or merely a dominance display. Maybe a bit of both, or the answer was always meant to be in the eye of the beholder. Though I think that William would not have been ready for a sexual relationship with a male until he'd had a few more years of anti-social homicidal fun, given William's upbringing. I'm still intrigued by the strong sense of friendship, camaraderie and liking between William and Angelus. They were really enjoying all that male-bonded mayhem/homicide. I think Spike really did admire and like Angelus, even though there was anger and jealousy in the mix after he found out about Angelus' rules of familial sexual partnership - i.e. no one belongs to anyone, no one deserves anything, you get what you can take. [glow=brown,2,300]GAIL [/glow]It's just like me to come in at the end of an interesting discussion. I guess I don't think that the kind of interplay we're seeing between Spike and Angelus here has to be an either/or thing. I imagine that it's meant to be both a dominance ritual and homoerotic; and it's presence in this episode neither implies nor denies the possibility of a physical relationship either then or later. However, I don't think that we can discount the possibility of William having some familiarity with such activity. English "public" schools have a reputation for--well--intimacy between same sex students. A young man of William's class might well have had some exposure to, if not personal experience with, homosexuality. He would not necessarily have seen it as repugnant, even if his romantic attentions were largely focused on young, unattainable women.
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Post by RAKSHA on Dec 9, 2003 22:34:07 GMT -5
It's just like me to come in at the end of an interesting discussion. I guess I don't think that the kind of interplay we're seeing between Spike and Angelus here has to be an either/or thing. I imagine that it's meant to be both a dominance ritual and homoerotic; and it's presence in this episode neither implies nor denies the possibility of a physical relationship either then or later. However, I don't think that we can discount the possibility of William having some familiarity with such activity. English "public" schools have a reputation for--well--intimacy between same sex students. A young man of William's class might well have had some exposure to, if not personal experience with, homosexuality. He would not necessarily have seen it as repugnant, even if his romantic attentions were largely focused on young, unattainable women. The William we met in FOOL FOR LOVE seemed very old-fashioned and conservative in terms of passion, also one to find that love from afar was easier than all that messy sex stuff. I think he was a virgin prior to vampage by Dru.
What I would like to see is if, in the future, Spike can fall in love with a woman who is neither unattainable nor a prior bedmate of Angel/Angelus. I wonder how much of his pattern of falling in love with unattainable women was a defense mechanism or a reflection of his insecurity. Poor William/Spike wasn't good enough to fall in love with someone who was likely to reciprocate, so he fell instead for women who were likely to despise him or use him. (or both)
Fred would be perfect for Spike, but I like their friendship, and I think Fred definitely does NOT want any monster in her man. (or she would be with Wesley, who loves her more than I think Knox ever could)
GAIL
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