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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 24, 2003 20:24:44 GMT -5
I'm totally new to this site, but I just had to put in my two cents about the review of "Destiny." I LOVED it, except I think the take on the Spike and Harmony Nooner is a bit off. Those mini-scenes were short and simple, but VERY telling about a number of things. First- Harmony is not Spike's victim, and never was. All vampire relationships in the buffyverse are pretty sado-masochistic and Spike's mistreatment of Harmony was just part of the twisted picture of their life together. When Spike "turns on the charm" it is nothing more than an offhand comment about her skirt. He could have said "oh, come on baby- I missed you." That would have been an insult. The suggestion "I want you, I know you want me- let's do some damage to eachother" is much more true to their particular brand of affection for eachother. Second- When harmony cries blood, it is a pretty pivotal moment. We realize, and Spike does too, that Harmony really loves Spike- she can't really be a part of the old sick and twisted Spike/harmony show. (Souled Spike can't do it either.) We also get a flash of recognition from Spike that he is doing the same thing to Harmony as Buffy did to him. Third- I disagree that Spike is "taking" something of Angel's when he runs off with Harmony. From the second Spike show's up, it is clear that Harmony is very much "his," or at least want to be. Angel is just borrowing her. I think that adds depth to the fight over the the cup. Some things Angel thinks of as his, really are Spike's. Finally- I think that Harmony is like a shadow of Spike. Just as Spike was always a couple steps behind angel in the past, showing further sides of Angel, I think Harmony could develop into a really cool, funny and useful character in the same vein. There is some good and interesting stuff in the Spike Harmony relationship. Spike needs to grow up and love someone who'll love him back, at least for a while. Seeing him in a functional relationship would be funny in and of itself. Thanks to all of you for being as obsessed as me! [shadow=red,left,300]WELCOME, LITTLEVAMP!!! So Glad You're Here![/shadow] We like Harmony for breakfast, lunch or dinner... I don't want to see her and Spike become a couple of him. She's funny and resourceful, but not doesn't seem particularly bright. I'd like to see Harmony and the Groosalugg meet and fall for each other; I think they'd be very cute. Or, as I've seen in at least one fanfic, Harmony and Riley.
GAIL
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 24, 2003 20:42:53 GMT -5
Hey again, I wanted to clarify (as if I didn't ramble enough before.) The scene was so pivotal because it true to life. Nomatter how much we change we fall back into the same pattern when we see an old flame. Spike acts like a jerk- because that was his pattern with Her. Harm was a (sexyand willing) doormat- because that was her pattern with Spike. I think a lot of people know what it is like to screw an ex thinking "it's just for fun, aren't I being naughty" and halfway into it realize- hey, I have feelings for this person and they are just using me- this sucks! (Or- I don't have feeling for this person- this sucks) I don't blame Spike or Harmony, I just think it was a great spark to start some dialogue character development for both. Less of the silly high school "I want, but I can't: I love you but you're evil" and more of the real stuff of adult relationships. PS- did anyone else notice that Spike never gave a darn for any male character on Buffy, but is all into male bonding now. Is that because he's playing with the big boy's now, or because he couldn't respect men who took orders from a teenage girl? As Eve would say (arms up at her sides) "I'm just asking?!" Feel free to ramble on, Littlevamp; this is the place for it. We like to ramble, we like to read other people's rambles...
Yep, Spike's running with the big dogs now; he's given up invading high schools in favor of haunting law firms.
I think Spike respected Giles but didn't respect Xander and Andrew as much, though he tolerated and protected them, because Xander and Andrew weren't fighters or scientists or witches.
I also think Spike didn't particularly want to bond with Xander because the Xan-Man might have reminded him uncomfortably of his own insecure self. He and Xander did work well together in HIM, though; but Xander was much more mature in s7 than in prior years...It would have been very interesting if Spike had met Oz, since Oz exuded an aura of quiet strength, but I don't think they ever did.
Spike has always been able to understand women and talk to them easily. Maybe because he has loved women, not men (except in fanfic). I don't think other males' taking orders from a teenaged girl was part of Spike's feelings towards the male Scoobies; after all, Spike fell in love with Buffy as she was leaving the teenaged years behind.
Although Spike's rather childish haunting of Gunn in the bathroom, complete with comments on Gunn's anatomy, are more the actions of a bratty kid than an adult man who wants to bond with other alpha males. [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 24, 2003 22:32:38 GMT -5
Feel free to ramble on, Littlevamp; this is the place for it. We like to ramble, we like to read other people's rambles...
Yep, Spike's running with the big dogs now; he's given up invading high schools in favor of haunting law firms.
I think Spike respected Giles but didn't respect Xander and Andrew as much, though he tolerated and protected them, because Xander and Andrew weren't fighters or scientists or witches.
I also think Spike didn't particularly want to bond with Xander because the Xan-Man might have reminded him uncomfortably of his own insecure self. He and Xander did work well together in HIM, though; but Xander was much more mature in s7 than in prior years...It would have been very interesting if Spike had met Oz, since Oz exuded an aura of quiet strength, but I don't think they ever did.
Spike has always been able to understand women and talk to them easily. Maybe because he has loved women, not men (except in fanfic). I don't think other males' taking orders from a teenaged girl was part of Spike's feelings towards the male Scoobies; after all, Spike fell in love with Buffy as she was leaving the teenaged years behind.
Although Spike's rather childish haunting of Gunn in the bathroom, complete with comments on Gunn's anatomy, are more the actions of a bratty kid than an adult man who wants to bond with other alpha males. [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow] But as with teenaged boys, it's apparently it's Gunn (of the males) that he likes the best! You always pick on the one you like (paraphrasing you always hurt the one you love), it seems.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Nov 24, 2003 23:02:51 GMT -5
Gail,
wasn't Spike involved in breaking Oz out of the Initiative in New Moon Rising? Otherwise I think they only met in battle in What's My Line.
By the way, I am taking Eden Grey's A Complete Guide to the Tarot to bed with me tonight so I can think more thoroughly about the matter of The King of Cups, and will post in the morning when I don't have to justify my use of the IMac to someone who needs it to study for an AP World Studies test...
Julia, who, one hopes, will figure out how to use italics here, sigh
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 25, 2003 0:03:44 GMT -5
Trying to clarify my earlier posts....I believe Spike is better than Angel for all sorts of reasons. So what? Am I right? Are others who disagree with me wrong? Did I ever say so? No. Furthermore, I don't believe Angel is bad and I don't think Angel can't be better than he is. He can be. I know it, he knows it, and it's too bad Spike had to kick his a$$ for him to figure it out. Angel is slow to change. Spike isn't. Spike's adaptability is a point in his favor. As for why Spike won back his soul, does it really matter? I've never understood this argument. When I hear/read it I always think of songs like Doing It All For My Baby or Everything I Do (I Do It For You). Spike's good deeds don't mean any less to me 'cuz his motives aren't 100% altruistic. Angelus had no motives. Angel(us) didn't want his soul back any of the times he'd lost it. I bought food at the market the other day to donate to a food drive. What's more important, my warm fuzzy for being so generous, or the fact that hungry people will eat? Does it matter? Does sharing this story take the meaning away from what I did, just 'cuz I'm telling you about my good deed?
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Post by Rachael on Nov 25, 2003 0:28:35 GMT -5
Trying to clarify my earlier posts.... I bought food at the market the other day to donate to a food drive. What's more important, my warm fuzzy for being so generous, or the fact that hungry people will eat? Does it matter? Does sharing this story take the meaning away from what I did, just 'cuz I'm telling you about my good deed? Absolutely not. I understand your points completely. But then, I guess I'm not one who was ever very touchy about these issues. I prefer Spike, but not because I think he's "better". I prefer the character's personality. Although - if we make a side-by-side comparison of their EVIL personalities, then in my book Angelus wins. Just for the fun. Not that you asked.
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Post by Rachael on Nov 25, 2003 0:30:29 GMT -5
Julia, who, one hopes, will figure out how to use italics here, sigh Julia: click the italics button, and you'll get the word TEXT between two bracketed i's. Replace the word TEXT with whatever you want italicized.
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 25, 2003 0:48:07 GMT -5
Absolutely not. I understand your points completely. But then, I guess I'm not one who was ever very touchy about these issues. I prefer Spike, but not because I think he's "better". I prefer the character's personality. Although - if we make a side-by-side comparison of their EVIL personalities, then in my book Angelus wins. Just for the fun. Not that you asked. I prefer Spike partly because I think he's better. As I said, I have my reasons. Of course, you could as easily say I think Spike's better 'cuz I prefer him. I'm just looking at what each of them has done and how they treat/are treated by the people around them. There are reasons why Spike got so little encouragement from the Scoobies. We had to see the changes were coming from within, not without. Something in him wanted to be better than he was. Did he want to be better for Buffy's sake? Yes. And for his own. He realized he couldn't go on as he was, so he took steps to change his situation, regardless of the cost. Angelus was a "better" vampire, Spike's a better souled vampire (IMO).
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Post by Rachael on Nov 25, 2003 1:06:03 GMT -5
I prefer Spike partly because I think he's better. As I said, I have my reasons. Of course, you could as easily say I think Spike's better 'cuz I prefer him. I'm just looking at what each of them has done and how they treat/are treated by the people around them. There are reasons why Spike got so little encouragement from the Scoobies. We had to see the changes were coming from within, not without. Something in him wanted to be better than he was. Did he want to be better for Buffy's sake? Yes. And for his own. He realized he couldn't go on as he was, so he took steps to change his situation, regardless of the cost. Angelus was a "better" vampire, Spike's a better souled vampire (IMO). Okey dokey.
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 25, 2003 1:10:01 GMT -5
Okey dokey. Whew! Now that's settled, how do you feel about the situation in the Middle East?
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Post by Rachael on Nov 25, 2003 1:23:19 GMT -5
Whew! Now that's settled, how do you feel about the situation in the Middle East? Like I'm not nearly drunk enough (see the main board, but don't look too closely).
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Post by Rachael on Nov 25, 2003 1:24:29 GMT -5
Whew! Now that's settled, how do you feel about the situation in the Middle East? Although - the situation in the Middle East could use a few more "Okey dokeys". Might clear things up faster.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 25, 2003 1:30:53 GMT -5
But as with teenaged boys, it's apparently it's Gunn (of the males) that he likes the best! You always pick on the one you like (paraphrasing you always hurt the one you love), it seems. Hmm; interesting. Perhaps Spike, with his keen intuition, senses the tough street-fighter underneath the newly polished brilliant lawyer in Gunn, and feels a kindred spirit. I had thought he'd bond more with Wesley, since they're British; but Wesley seems joined at the hip to Angel (in a non-slashy way) because of their friendship and their both having been raised by repressive fathers.
I don't know that Gunn will ever respond to Spike's overture of friendship, though. The only vamp he likes is Angel, and besides, he's too busy burying his inner Dionysian to want to hang out with a Dionysian vampire...[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 25, 2003 1:50:09 GMT -5
Trying to clarify my earlier posts....I believe Spike is better than Angel for all sorts of reasons. So what? Am I right? Are others who disagree with me wrong? Did I ever say so? No. Furthermore, I don't believe Angel is bad and I don't think Angel can't be better than he is. He can be. I know it, he knows it, and it's too bad Spike had to kick his a$$ for him to figure it out. Angel is slow to change. Spike isn't. Spike's adaptability is a point in his favor. As for why Spike won back his soul, does it really matter? I've never understood this argument. When I hear/read it I always think of songs like Doing It All For My Baby or Everything I Do (I Do It For You). Spike's good deeds don't mean any less to me 'cuz his motives aren't 100% altruistic. Angelus had no motives. Angel(us) didn't want his soul back any of the times he'd lost it. I bought food at the market the other day to donate to a food drive. What's more important, my warm fuzzy for being so generous, or the fact that hungry people will eat? Does it matter? Does sharing this story take the meaning away from what I did, just 'cuz I'm telling you about my good deed? To me, saying that Spike is <better> than Angel is like saying carrot cake is better than pecan pie. They're both wonderful characters and very heroic individuals.
Spike is definitely more selfish and self-willed than Angel, at least on the surface. He has done some amazingly selfless things, but he does make a big show of the 'what's innit for me' attitude. I agree that one doesn't have to be altruistic to be a 100% altruistic to be a hero.
[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 25, 2003 1:57:30 GMT -5
Gail, wasn't Spike involved in breaking Oz out of the Initiative in New Moon Rising? Otherwise I think they only met in battle in What's My Line. By the way, I am taking Eden Grey's A Complete Guide to the Tarot to bed with me tonight so I can think more thoroughly about the matter of The King of Cups, and will post in the morning when I don't have to justify my use of the IMac to someone who needs it to study for an AP World Studies test... Julia, who, one hopes, will figure out how to use italics here, sigh But I don't think that Spike ever talked with Oz, or knows who he is or that he was Willow's boyfriend (unless he smelled Willow on him). Of course, it's been a long time since I've watched What's My Line.
Off-topic, can your IMac use Word? I'm hoping eventually to buy an IMAC - I hate dealing with a tower - but I'll have lots of Word documents on disk...[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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