|
Post by Rachael on Nov 24, 2003 17:33:20 GMT -5
I kinda thought the cool, confident Xander was maybe a little better. That was the guy who got the promotion at work and rented the awesome apartment. Did Xander remember being split? He could have known then that he could be a really cool guy if HE wanted to be. Hmm. . .but I think that's a very female perspective. I, too, am inclined to mark confident Xander as "better", but when I stop to really consider which I'd rather - let's just say, spend time with, I have to say "neither". I'd be all over the real Xander in every sense of the word. But I don't want either split Xander. Confident Xander is, well, kinda boring. And entirely too confident. Totally lacking Xander's cute insecurities. And insecurities, like it or not, are cute much of the time. As long as they're not excessive. Which brings us to Xander #2 - way too insecure. Lost all the growing up Xander did. I like my men fun, not pitiful. So, in the end, neither. Xander is only Xander when all of him is together.
|
|
|
Post by thelittlestvampire on Nov 24, 2003 17:35:03 GMT -5
I'm totally new to this site, but I just had to put in my two cents about the review of "Destiny."
I LOVED it, except I think the take on the Spike and Harmony Nooner is a bit off. Those mini-scenes were short and simple, but VERY telling about a number of things.
First- Harmony is not Spike's victim, and never was. All vampire relationships in the buffyverse are pretty sado-masochistic and Spike's mistreatment of Harmony was just part of the twisted picture of their life together.
When Spike "turns on the charm" it is nothing more than an offhand comment about her skirt. He could have said "oh, come on baby- I missed you." That would have been an insult. The suggestion "I want you, I know you want me- let's do some damage to eachother" is much more true to their particular brand of affection for eachother.
Second- When harmony cries blood, it is a pretty pivotal moment. We realize, and Spike does too, that Harmony really loves Spike- she can't really be a part of the old sick and twisted Spike/harmony show. (Souled Spike can't do it either.) We also get a flash of recognition from Spike that he is doing the same thing to Harmony as Buffy did to him.
Third- I disagree that Spike is "taking" something of Angel's when he runs off with Harmony. From the second Spike show's up, it is clear that Harmony is very much "his," or at least want to be. Angel is just borrowing her. I think that adds depth to the fight over the the cup. Some things Angel thinks of as his, really are Spike's.
Finally- I think that Harmony is like a shadow of Spike. Just as Spike was always a couple steps behind angel in the past, showing further sides of Angel, I think Harmony could develop into a really cool, funny and useful character in the same vein.
There is some good and interesting stuff in the Spike Harmony relationship. Spike needs to grow up and love someone who'll love him back, at least for a while. Seeing him in a functional relationship would be funny in and of itself.
Thanks to all of you for being as obsessed as me!
|
|
|
Post by Rachael on Nov 24, 2003 17:39:41 GMT -5
My take: Angel and Spike are DIFFERENT. Not one better than the other. Angel was cursed with a soul; Spike got his on purpose. Yeah, sure - but I'm with Angel - it was to get in a girl's pants. (Okay, it was so she'd love him, but you catch my drift.)
Angel's soul was a curse. Again, so what? Wasn't his fault he lost it, and when he's got it, he fights like hell to keep it. That, alone, marks him as a good person in my mind. It'd be so easy just to let it go and not be miserable any more.
Spike has been a fairly good person since getting his soul back. Okay. So has Angel. Spike hasn't had the time, yet, to dedicate his life to fighting evil - Angel didn't do it for decades after he got his soul back. Just survived eating rats, remember?
And if Spike decides to just have an unlife, and not try to redeem himself - that's a perfectly valid choice, in my mind. He's not morally responsible for his vampire deeds, so as far as I'm concerned, from the moment he got his soul back, the slate was clean. Accounts in balance.
Angel feels that he should do good to make up for his vampire evil. Good on him. More power to him. The world needs more like him.
All that said, Angel has more *obvious* issues right now than Spike, and I think needs more help. Spike isn't apt to be a huge amount of help (directly), due to his own issues.
And hey, that's what's gonna make this fun (for me).
|
|
|
Post by Rachael on Nov 24, 2003 17:42:44 GMT -5
I'm totally new to this site, but I just had to put in my two cents about the review of "Destiny." I LOVED it, except I think the take on the Spike and Harmony Nooner is a bit off. Those mini-scenes were short and simple, but VERY telling about a number of things. First- Harmony is not Spike's victim, and never was. All vampire relationships in the buffyverse are pretty sado-masochistic and Spike's mistreatment of Harmony was just part of the twisted picture of their life together. When Spike "turns on the charm" it is nothing more than an offhand comment about her skirt. He could have said "oh, come on baby- I missed you." That would have been an insult. The suggestion "I want you, I know you want me- let's do some damage to eachother" is much more true to their particular brand of affection for eachother. Second- When harmony cries blood, it is a pretty pivotal moment. We realize, and Spike does too, that Harmony really loves Spike- she can't really be a part of the old sick and twisted Spike/harmony show. (Souled Spike can't do it either.) We also get a flash of recognition from Spike that he is doing the same thing to Harmony as Buffy did to him. Third- I disagree that Spike is "taking" something of Angel's when he runs off with Harmony. From the second Spike show's up, it is clear that Harmony is very much "his," or at least want to be. Angel is just borrowing her. I think that adds depth to the fight over the the cup. Some things Angel thinks of as his, really are Spike's. Finally- I think that Harmony is like a shadow of Spike. Just as Spike was always a couple steps behind angel in the past, showing further sides of Angel, I think Harmony could develop into a really cool, funny and useful character in the same vein. There is some good and interesting stuff in the Spike Harmony relationship. Spike needs to grow up and love someone who'll love him back, at least for a while. Seeing him in a functional relationship would be funny in and of itself. Thanks to all of you for being as obsessed as me! Welcome, and just to get you started, I'm gonna argue with you. My problem with the Spike-Harmony stuff was this: you're right. The damaging, sado-masochistic aspect of relationships is big with vampires. But most vampires have no souls. Spike does; therefore, I expect more from him. After. Right that second, he was in no place I'd expect him to be thinking much. Other than that, ITA.
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Nov 24, 2003 17:53:41 GMT -5
I'm totally new to this site, but I just had to put in my two cents about the review of "Destiny." I LOVED it, except I think the take on the Spike and Harmony Nooner is a bit off. Those mini-scenes were short and simple, but VERY telling about a number of things. First- Harmony is not Spike's victim, and never was. All vampire relationships in the buffyverse are pretty sado-masochistic and Spike's mistreatment of Harmony was just part of the twisted picture of their life together. When Spike "turns on the charm" it is nothing more than an offhand comment about her skirt. He could have said "oh, come on baby- I missed you." That would have been an insult. The suggestion "I want you, I know you want me- let's do some damage to eachother" is much more true to their particular brand of affection for eachother. Second- When harmony cries blood, it is a pretty pivotal moment. We realize, and Spike does too, that Harmony really loves Spike- she can't really be a part of the old sick and twisted Spike/harmony show. (Souled Spike can't do it either.) We also get a flash of recognition from Spike that he is doing the same thing to Harmony as Buffy did to him. Third- I disagree that Spike is "taking" something of Angel's when he runs off with Harmony. From the second Spike show's up, it is clear that Harmony is very much "his," or at least want to be. Angel is just borrowing her. I think that adds depth to the fight over the the cup. Some things Angel thinks of as his, really are Spike's. Finally- I think that Harmony is like a shadow of Spike. Just as Spike was always a couple steps behind angel in the past, showing further sides of Angel, I think Harmony could develop into a really cool, funny and useful character in the same vein. There is some good and interesting stuff in the Spike Harmony relationship. Spike needs to grow up and love someone who'll love him back, at least for a while. Seeing him in a functional relationship would be funny in and of itself. Thanks to all of you for being as obsessed as me! Hi LittleV, Welcome. I like the point you make about some of the things Angels thinks are his are really Spikes. I think you're right about Spike treating Harmony the same way Buffy treated him. I still get mad at her, and that's why I was so hard on Spike. When he got his soul he didn't like being treated that way. I want to see him acknowledge Harmony's feelings and either stay away from her or even apologize, but I'm not holding my breath. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Nov 24, 2003 18:01:19 GMT -5
Hmm. . .but I think that's a very female perspective. I, too, am inclined to mark confident Xander as "better", but when I stop to really consider which I'd rather - let's just say, spend time with, I have to say "neither". I'd be all over the real Xander in every sense of the word. But I don't want either split Xander. Confident Xander is, well, kinda boring. And entirely too confident. Totally lacking Xander's cute insecurities. And insecurities, like it or not, are cute much of the time. As long as they're not excessive. Which brings us to Xander #2 - way too insecure. Lost all the growing up Xander did. I like my men fun, not pitiful. So, in the end, neither. Xander is only Xander when all of him is together. I don't mean he's much better, but the other Xander was still living in his parent's basement and even said that "he's living my life and doing a better job of it." I was never attracted to the real Xander, though I do think NB is very attractive. I just don't like the goofy joking all the time. I need a guy who can hide his insecurities better than that, besides it doesn't really hide them, it makes them more obvious. I feel the same way about women who turn everything into a joke.
|
|
|
Post by thelittlestvampire on Nov 24, 2003 18:13:04 GMT -5
Hey again,
I wanted to clarify (as if I didn't ramble enough before.)
The scene was so pivotal because it true to life. Nomatter how much we change we fall back into the same pattern when we see an old flame.
Spike acts like a jerk- because that was his pattern with Her.
Harm was a (sexyand willing) doormat- because that was her pattern with Spike.
I think a lot of people know what it is like to screw an ex thinking "it's just for fun, aren't I being naughty" and halfway into it realize- hey, I have feelings for this person and they are just using me- this sucks! (Or- I don't have feeling for this person- this sucks)
I don't blame Spike or Harmony, I just think it was a great spark to start some dialogue character development for both. Less of the silly high school "I want, but I can't: I love you but you're evil" and more of the real stuff of adult relationships.
PS- did anyone else notice that Spike never gave a darn for any male character on Buffy, but is all into male bonding now. Is that because he's playing with the big boy's now, or because he couldn't respect men who took orders from a teenage girl? As Eve would say (arms up at her sides) "I'm just asking?!"
|
|
|
Post by Laura on Nov 24, 2003 18:15:18 GMT -5
Changing the subject only slightly here -- I want to go back to exploring the "father/son" relationship between Angel and Spike.
(And yes, I know Dru sired Spike; I'm being figurative here.)
Somebody else already mentioned it here (apologies, I don't remember who), and I have to say I think it's an interesting take, especially since I'd also like to explore it the context of the Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade shout-out from the episode.
Yes, we've all recognized that the Cup (and let's forget about whether it was a "fake" prophecy, because who knows?) echoed the Holy Grail, and of course, Indy went looking for the Grail (and his father) in that last movie. But did any of you catch how even the dialogue from this episode echoed the movie?
[/i] parallels in this. First, after Elsa has already fallen to her death trying to retrieve the Grail, the elder Jones (having nearly the identical conversation with Indy that Indy had unsuccessfully had with Elsa) convinces Indy to "let go" of the Grail. Second, the elder Jones tells his son that Elsa's error was that "she thought she'd found a prize," and, when asked what he had found, replied, "Illumination." Illumination indeed. Spike and Angel realize that they've been set up. Also, by the end of the episode, they do seem to be behaving better together.[/ul] Now, maybe I just love that movie too much (truthfully -- it's really Sean Connery -- YEAH BABY! ;D) -- but I really think that somebody at ME is a huge IJ fan, and was deliberately echoing this movie here.[/color][/font]
|
|
|
Post by Rachael on Nov 24, 2003 18:19:53 GMT -5
I don't mean he's much better, but the other Xander was still living in his parent's basement and even said that "he's living my life and doing a better job of it." I was never attracted to the real Xander, though I do think NB is very attractive. I just don't like the goofy joking all the time. I need a guy who can hide his insecurities better than that, besides it doesn't really hide them, it makes them more obvious. I feel the same way about women who turn everything into a joke. I get that. And Xander's insecurities are often a little too obvious, I agree. But for me, better that than someone who won't tell me anything. Or someone who just doesn't have ANY. Ugh.
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Nov 24, 2003 18:29:21 GMT -5
Changing the subject only slightly here -- I want to go back to exploring the "father/son" relationship between Angel and Spike.
(And yes, I know Dru sired Spike; I'm being figurative here.)
Somebody else already mentioned it here (apologies, I don't remember who), and I have to say I think it's an interesting take, especially since I'd also like to explore it the context of the Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade shout-out from the episode.
Yes, we've all recognized that the Cup (and let's forget about whether it was a "fake" prophecy, because who knows?) echoed the Holy Grail, and of course, Indy went looking for the Grail (and his father) in that last movie. But did any of you catch how even the dialogue from this episode echoed the movie?
[/i] parallels in this. First, after Elsa has already fallen to her death trying to retrieve the Grail, the elder Jones (having nearly the identical conversation with Indy that Indy had unsuccessfully had with Elsa) convinces Indy to "let go" of the Grail. Second, the elder Jones tells his son that Elsa's error was that "she thought she'd found a prize," and, when asked what he had found, replied, "Illumination." Illumination indeed. Spike and Angel realize that they've been set up. Also, by the end of the episode, they do seem to be behaving better together.[/ul] Now, maybe I just love that movie too much (truthfully -- it's really Sean Connery -- YEAH BABY! ;D) -- but I really think that somebody at ME is a huge IJ fan, and was deliberately echoing this movie here.[/color][/font][/quote]I love that movie, too. The "true cup" gives life--to a vampire, human again--cool parallel. Illlumination for Angel & Spike--being human again might not be so wonderful after all--they need to do good for it's own sake and learn that by working together they can be stronger than the sum of their parts.
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 24, 2003 18:39:01 GMT -5
How can one recognize the changes of other if you haven't been there to see them first hand. Sure Buffy said well he has a soul now and he knows more of it. But he hadn't seen any of it . . . so what's wrong in seeing is believing. Who's to say that that maybe Angel wants to make sure Spike did change and is not maybe just playing along to impress Buffy, etc. After all, Spike didn't get Soul to help mankind or out of the goodness of his dead heart. He got it to become the man that Buffy wanted. Not together altruistic. He still isn't interested in fighting for atonement/redemption (as he's reiterated many times) like Angel does. Doesn't make him better than Angel, just because Angel was cursed and Spike sought his out and fought demon trials for it. If he had never been chipped to begin with, you really think he would have gone looking for his soul? I don't think so. So how can he think he's better than Angel just cuz he sought out his soul. He can't.Don't mean to argue with the walking wounded (which is of course what I'm doing) but I think you mean Spike *shouldn't* think he's better. I don't think one can say *He can't* because he can and does. And what's more, so (at the moment) does Angel. Precision, children--precision.
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 24, 2003 18:53:23 GMT -5
I'm totally new to this site, but I just had to put in my two cents about the review of "Destiny." I LOVED it, except I think the take on the Spike and Harmony Nooner is a bit off. Those mini-scenes were short and simple, but VERY telling about a number of things. First- Harmony is not Spike's victim, and never was. All vampire relationships in the buffyverse are pretty sado-masochistic and Spike's mistreatment of Harmony was just part of the twisted picture of their life together. When Spike "turns on the charm" it is nothing more than an offhand comment about her skirt. He could have said "oh, come on baby- I missed you." That would have been an insult. The suggestion "I want you, I know you want me- let's do some damage to eachother" is much more true to their particular brand of affection for eachother. <snip> Thanks to all of you for being as obsessed as me! Welcome, Hamony fan! (I gather this from your screen name, which is one of the things Spike calls Harmony). Just pointing out here that the *review* differs in no respect from what you say above. I don't go into the sado-masochistic element that you correctly cite, but I certainly didn't say anything to contradict it. And my point there, to the degree I had one, is that it was impulsive on both their parts, equally by consent, and therefore Spike shouldn't be criticized for initiating/doing it. I think we're in full agreement here. Sometimes it's hard to keep the episode itself, the review, and subsequent comments straight--especially when there are SO MANY of them! This thread has been bouncing along at a great rate, all day. So, LittlestVampire, we weren't in disagreement before, and we're not in disagreement now. Thanks for weighing in on Harmony's side and seeing events from her viewpoint. The more we all can do that with the different characters, the more depth we can see in the episode in all its flavors, viewpoints, and diversity. Visit us again, do!
|
|
|
Post by makd on Nov 24, 2003 19:34:30 GMT -5
I'm actually hoping that if she ever does show up in LA when she's done backing that Angel and Spike basically say, enough is enough and that whether she is baked or not, they have moved on and to stay the hell away from us. ;D I second that emotion!
|
|
|
Post by RAKSHA on Nov 24, 2003 20:09:22 GMT -5
I'm not denying that Spike hasn't helped him in those instances, and I guess I wasn't clear in what I was trying to say. What I meant was all the harking that Spike is doing on the deal that Angel made with W&H. Angel knows he made a deal with the devil. He knows it probably isn't the best thing he's done, but he's trying to deal with it and make the best of it and to have someone in his hear continuously harking on it isn't helpful. That's what I meant. Spikes thinks he knows Angel, but I don't think he does. He knows Angelus, but has never spent that much time with Angel. DOesn't really know who Angel is now. Same in that Angel knows the Spike of years ago. Not this new version of Spike. I believe that JW, or another ME biggie has said that Spike is going to be the voice of truth this season, there to remind Angel that he's in danger of being corrupted by all the perks of W&H...He said that Spike will sometimes be part of the team, and sometimes an outsider, sometimes helping the group and sometimes getting into trouble.
I don't think Spike is going to become a good little Fang Gang soldier anytime soon. He's always said what he's felt; and isn't long on tact.
Spike can fulfill a valuable role as an unbiased voice of conscience concerning Angel's role as W&H CEO. It would be easy for Angel to become comfortable and complacent as time goes on and the pain of Connor's loss diminishes. I think Spike's voice of dissent and snark might be helpful.
I definitely concede that Spike's complaints about Angel having all the toys - i.e. the view, the cars - while Spike has nothing, could get tiresome. Hopefully, now that Spike's corporeal, he can start making a life for himself and not need so much of what Angel doesn't want to give him (though a loan or perhaps a key to the Hyperion would be nice...).
[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
|
|
|
Post by Dev(Rob) on Nov 24, 2003 20:10:57 GMT -5
- Spring Summers I sort of believe he did, as he said in 'Destiny' it isn't a case of owning it's a case of taking what you want because you can. He could take, he did take, he had and now it's over. The theme is still sort of continuing in some of Angels actions todate but just not with the women - RAKSHA He still is Angelus, deep down he knows this. He is all three, the bad thing about a soul is the natural human like emotions which bless and plague it. The vices and virtues of everyday life from all 3 personalities: Angelus, Angel, Liam are forever with him and will be so it's natural for him to 'harc' back to days of Angelus and days of Liam and play out or use memories and actions from the two because when in those 'roles' he at least had at least one good day! - RAKSHA I sort of agree here, one thing you missed off your list though was when Spike told Angel he may 'have a go' with Fred! - makd I'm not sure I agree with this. I believe Spike never loved Dru but it was more of a 'convenience forced' issue. On a night where he had just been told he was beneath the person he truely did love at that time he found solice in a strange girl offering him what he had always demi-wanted. Spend enough time with someone with the right sort of situations and emotions and you will have SOME kind of feelings for them. After all, who else was Spike to have? - Nicki M Yes he did remember being split and the gang explained it to him. He then bought his first appartment away from his parents home where he lived ( Anya was there a LOT as well ) Xander knew he was cool in his own way, he didn't need to seperate into two different personas to find that out, he just needed reminding.
|
|