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Post by Betsy on Nov 24, 2003 16:39:28 GMT -5
Maybe he can, maybe he can't, but I do. Spike was more human as a demon than Angelus. Angelus killed Jenny 'cuz she was trying to restore his soul. I don't think a chipped Angelus would've done as much good as chipped Spike. Spike is more evolved than Angel. JW said so himself. Yes, Spike may well have been a more human demon than Angelus was. But I still don't think he would have sought out his soul if he'd never been chipped. Same as Angelus certainly never would have sought out his soul. And we'll never know who Angelus would have reacted if he's been chipped. (but I did read an interesting fan fic where the initiative had gotten Angel along with Spike and chipped them both). Don't think it makes him better either that he's come to terms to with his soul quicker either. Every one deals with things differently. I do think it was easier for Spike to deal with his soul because he had been chipped for a few years before hand and was forced to change his ways. I just think that Angel has a rockier road to travel. Alway having to worry about Angelus being let loose and thus having to keep a part of himself closed off at all time. Spike doesn't have to worry about that. Well I guess we'll have to to continue to agree to disagree. I don't think Spike is better than Angel or more evolved, regardless of what Joss says. He's entitled to his opinion of his characters, you are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to my opinion. Everyone has their owns takes. So I'll leave it to that.
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Post by Karen on Nov 24, 2003 16:40:15 GMT -5
Maybe he can, maybe he can't, but I do. Spike was more human as a demon than Angelus. Angelus killed Jenny 'cuz she was trying to restore his soul. I don't think a chipped Angelus would've done as much good as chipped Spike. Spike is more evolved than Angel. JW said so himself. I agree that Spike was more evolved. Had more of the good human qualities than Angel to begin with. I wouldn't go so far as saying that Spike is better than Angel. Just more evolved. They are both so different. Together, their good parts, would make one awesome guy. Kind of like Xander when he was split in two. One wasn't better than the other - he needed both sides of himself to make him whole. And he was a bad influence on himself, if I recall. ;D
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Post by Nickim on Nov 24, 2003 16:47:41 GMT -5
Spike isn't doing it at all. He's never taken anything important to Angel. Have to disagree. Remember, Angel told Wesley they were "HIS people." Angel, being the controlling type that he is, views all "HIS" things as important. It's true the Shanshu never "belonged" to Angel, but he was the only vampire with a soul, so naturally he thought they if a vampire ever did Shanshu, it would be him. Spike has taken away Angel's future hope of being human--if only in Angel's mind. It's how Angel views these things that matters to him. A prize we feel we've worked very hard to achieve going to someone else who, in our mind, didn't work as hard for it has stolen it from us--even if nevers wasn't really was ours.
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Post by Betsy on Nov 24, 2003 16:48:17 GMT -5
I like their fighting when it's about serious things. "You made me a monster", for example. I'm tired of them snarking just to be snarking. I want to see them hate each other, but still work toward the same goals, like when they beat the necromancer. Plus if I was an evil souless demon who had been buried for a hundred years or so, I too would do all i could to prevent it. He hated Angel and all he represented and he just wanted to come and play a bit. ;D
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Post by Betsy on Nov 24, 2003 16:49:39 GMT -5
I agree that Spike was more evolved. Had more of the good human qualities than Angel to begin with. I wouldn't go so far as saying that Spike is better than Angel. Just more evolved. They are both so different. Together, their good parts, would make one awesome guy. Kind of like Xander when he was split in two. One wasn't better than the other - he needed both sides of himself to make him whole. And he was a bad influence on himself, if I recall. ;D and that's probably because they were both so different as human. Didn't Darla say in Prodigal that basically who we were as human shapes who they are ad demons? Well as humans, you couldn't two totally different people, from 2 totally different background. They were a product of their time and families.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 24, 2003 16:54:16 GMT -5
Have to disagree. Remember, Angel told Wesley they were "HIS people." Angel, being the controlling type that he is, views all "HIS" things as important. I agree that Angel THINKS Spike took things away from him. I don't agree that Spike IN REALITY took anything of significance away from Angel. Actually, I don't think Angel sees things this way. He seemed a lot more thoughtful than that, to me, at the end of the last episode. I don't think he was blaming Spike, or seeing the Shanshu as possibly "stolen" from him. What he said was "What if I'm not the one?" Angel is considering the possibility that the prophecy was never meant for him to begin with, not seeing it as "look what Spike might steal from me!" And good for Angel for such a mature outlook. Spike has not "taken away Angel's hopes." Only Angel can stop hoping - that's his call. And I'm not sure he has stopped hoping - he has reason to doubt now, but not to give up hope entirely. And even if Spike shanshued (and I don't think he will), it still wouldn't be a case of Spike "taking away Angel's hopes." It would only mean that a different destiny than he thought awaited Angel. Maybe a better one even. Spike has never taken anything of any significance away from Angel. Not in reality.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 24, 2003 16:59:56 GMT -5
Yes, Spike may well have been a more human demon than Angelus was. But I still don't think he would have sought out his soul if he'd never been chipped. Same as Angelus certainly never would have sought out his soul. And we'll never know who Angelus would have reacted if he's been chipped. (but I did read an interesting fan fic where the initiative had gotten Angel along with Spike and chipped them both). Don't think it makes him better either that he's come to terms to with his soul quicker either. Every one deals with things differently. I do think it was easier for Spike to deal with his soul because he had been chipped for a few years before hand and was forced to change his ways. I just think that Angel has a rockier road to travel. Alway having to worry about Angelus being let loose and thus having to keep a part of himself closed off at all time. Spike doesn't have to worry about that. Well I guess we'll have to to continue to agree to disagree. I don't think Spike is better than Angel or more evolved, regardless of what Joss says. He's entitled to his opinion of his characters, you are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to my opinion. Everyone has their owns takes. So I'll leave it to that. I think all Joss meant by the "Spike is more evolved" comment was that Spike had begun the integration of his demon side and his human soul side, whereas Angel is still dealing with the painful separation. I don't think he was referring to how either one of them got his soul, or how many times they saved the world, or which one was the nicer human. Spike IS more evolved in that sense, and I think the need to "integrate" is a big theme this year - we saw it in the imagery of Angel locking the evil killer in his basement and telling him how that would be hell, and we saw it in how Lorne fell apart when he tried to separate his "sleep." This is what the "more evolved" thing is about, I think. I think it is why Spike finally beat Angel at something, why we see him a step ahead of Angel, literally, as they race toward Nevada. But Angel . . . he'll get there. I'm just dying to see how in the world Angel/Angelus could ever resolve themselves into one being! It should be some major, major drama.
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 24, 2003 17:00:40 GMT -5
and that's probably because they were both so different as human. Didn't Darla say in Prodigal that basically who we were as human shapes who they are ad demons? Well as humans, you couldn't two totally different people, from 2 totally different background. They were a product of their time and families. Two different people from two different backgrounds...yes. And there's a very good reason for it. William was alive around the time feminisim began. William had a strong, positive female influence in his life. Spike considers Dru his not because he made or marked her, but because he loves her. He's hers and she's his. Women brought both Liam and William into vampirism. Also significant. Angelus refers to Darla and Dru as "his women." Angel claims Buffy doesn't love Spike 'cuz Spike ain't him. Angel doesn't know how Buffy feels about Spike, not really. Buffy doesn't even know how Buffy feels about Spike (not completely). Angel's had opportunities to see changes in Spike. He was in the lab when Spike gave up a chance to be corporeal to save Fred. Buffy was in Europe. Angel just can't admit to being less than Spike in any way.
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Post by Betsy on Nov 24, 2003 17:08:09 GMT -5
Two different people from two different backgrounds...yes. And there's a very good reason for it. William was alive around the time feminisim began. William had a strong, positive female influence in his life. Spike considers Dru his not because he made or marked her, but because he loves her. He's hers and she's his. Women brought both Liam and William into vampirism. Also significant. Angelus refers to Darla and Dru as "his women." Angel claims Buffy doesn't love Spike 'cuz Spike ain't him. Angel doesn't know how Buffy feels about Spike, not really. Buffy doesn't even know how Buffy feels about Spike (not completely). Angel's had opportunities to see changes in Spike. He was in the lab when Spike gave up a chance to be corporeal to save Fred. Buffy was in Europe. Angel just can't admit to being less than Spike in any way. Well I also think that Spike can admit that in some ways he's less than Angel also. Goes both ways.
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Post by Karen on Nov 24, 2003 17:14:25 GMT -5
Two different people from two different backgrounds...yes. And there's a very good reason for it. William was alive around the time feminisim began. William had a strong, positive female influence in his life. Spike considers Dru his not because he made or marked her, but because he loves her. He's hers and she's his. Women brought both Liam and William into vampirism. Also significant. Angelus refers to Darla and Dru as "his women." Angel claims Buffy doesn't love Spike 'cuz Spike ain't him. Angel doesn't know how Buffy feels about Spike, not really. Buffy doesn't even know how Buffy feels about Spike (not completely). Angel's had opportunities to see changes in Spike. He was in the lab when Spike gave up a chance to be corporeal to save Fred. Buffy was in Europe. Angel just can't admit to being less than Spike in any way. I think Angel has major feelings of insecurity when it comes to Spike. Angel is deep down a violent man, Spike has a sensitive poet's soul. Angel likes Spike's poetry. I don't think it makes him any less of a *man* than Spike, but Angel does. And his perception is what is important because it effects his connection with everyone around him. It's like Buffy's speech to Holden when she told him that she feels both inferior to her friends and also better than them. Angel needs to solve the conflict within, and like Spring said - it's gonna make for some nifty drama. (My word - nifty, not hers, she would use something much better - but I'm about brain dead here and really behind on my work today. ;D)
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Post by Karen on Nov 24, 2003 17:15:42 GMT -5
and that's probably because they were both so different as human. Didn't Darla say in Prodigal that basically who we were as human shapes who they are ad demons? Well as humans, you couldn't two totally different people, from 2 totally different background. They were a product of their time and families. Yes, different as humans, different as demons. Both souls struggling to find some meaning in their lives.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 24, 2003 17:16:45 GMT -5
I agree that Spike was more evolved. Had more of the good human qualities than Angel to begin with. I wouldn't go so far as saying that Spike is better than Angel. Just more evolved. They are both so different. Together, their good parts, would make one awesome guy. Kind of like Xander when he was split in two. One wasn't better than the other - he needed both sides of himself to make him whole. And he was a bad influence on himself, if I recall. ;D I kinda thought the cool, confident Xander was maybe a little better. That was the guy who got the promotion at work and rented the awesome apartment. Did Xander remember being split? He could have known then that he could be a really cool guy if HE wanted to be.
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Post by Karen on Nov 24, 2003 17:21:00 GMT -5
Well I also think that Spike can admit that in some ways he's less than Angel also. Goes both ways. Spike could learn alot from Angel if he cared to. Angel has been helping the helpless for a long time. Family life has gotten in the way of his mission, and it's going to take some time to find a way to work around W&H's evil ways. Spike did show some interest in helping after they returned from the desert. I think he'll be up for the fight for good of all and puppies.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 24, 2003 17:23:55 GMT -5
I think Angel has major feelings of insecurity when it comes to Spike. Angel is deep down a violent man, Spike has a sensitive poet's soul. Angel likes Spike's poetry. I don't think it makes him any less of a *man* than Spike, but Angel does. And his perception is what is important because it effects his connection with everyone around him. It's like Buffy's speech to Holden when she told him that she feels both inferior to her friends and also better than them. Angel needs to solve the conflict within, and like Spring said - it's gonna make for some nifty drama. (My word - nifty, not hers, she would use something much better - but I'm about brain dead here and really behind on my work today. ;D) I know you've seen more of AtS than I have, but I feel that Angel isn't violent deep down. He was always reading deep poetry on BtVS and doing the Tai-Chi ?? exercises. I always got the feeling that he would like to try to find a nonviolent way to live, but the demon within won't allow him to find that kind of peace. Maybe I'm just seeing the situation totally wrong.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 24, 2003 17:26:49 GMT -5
Spike could learn alot from Angel if he cared to. Angel has been helping the helpless for a long time. Family life has gotten in the way of his mission, and it's going to take some time to find a way to work around W&H's evil ways. Spike did show some interest in helping after they returned from the desert. I think he'll be up for the fight for good of all and puppies. I think you're right. Spike needs to learn to fight the good fight for it's own sake, not to please others. He'll be happier that way. When Buffy didn't acknowledge his efforts, he got frustrated, but if he does good things "just because", his own self-satisfaction will be reward enough.
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