|
Post by Lola m on Feb 14, 2004 10:37:16 GMT -5
Very good and interesting review!
In addition to all the sub-themes of Angel this year, (father/son issues, etc.), or any year, you really got to the heart of it all in the main theme and it's link to the title of this ep. (Hee hee, "sub" themes.)
The "why" of why we fight has, IMHO, been the main theme of AtS from it's opening show to the present day. From Doyle's first introduction to Angel's conversation with Kate after his epiphany to the confusion and greyness the gang faces this season. (I think it was also major, although not the main) theme of BtVS, too.) You always gotta go back to the why - "check the goal" - to keep yourself from losing the mission in the day to day grind.
Thank you for your reviews, Nan. Just like Spring's analysis of Buffy, they always make me go back to see connections I didn't before!
Lola
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Feb 14, 2004 10:50:05 GMT -5
Great review, as always, Nan. I'm with Cal, I've decided I liked the story, but there are some holes in the way it was executed. I understand why Angel didn't stake Lawson on the couch, but I would have thought he would have kept ahold of him and staked him as soon as he saw the hostages in the lobby. Angel would have known by then that Lawson didn't have an accomplice and he could have easily rescued the hostages after the dust settled. I'm spoiled, but I don't usually read the details. I hadn't read that anyone would get turned on the sub, but I knew Lawson was a vamp as soon as he stepped off the elevator. Is ME slipping or am I getting better at guessing the plot "suprises"? I guess I haven't been having a big problem with Angel not staking/attacking Lawson right away for a couple of reasons. One, it wasn't really that long a delay - I mean if you spliced the "now time" conversation of theirs together without the flashbacks, it's probably only 5, 10 minutes at max. It just seems longer 'cuz we're looking at all the WWII story in between. Two, Angel is trying to get a vibe for what's going on - what's really up with Lawson; does he need to stake him or just immobilize him; what's he been doing all this time; etc. I sorta think that part of it was really just Angel needing to have this conversation with Lawson - for himself - his own personal reasons. So, plot holes, yeah - some, but not as many as I was first thinking. And a little sloppiness here and there - yeah. Not the best episode ever done, but better than I thought at first. Lola
|
|
|
Post by KMInfinity on Feb 14, 2004 12:54:05 GMT -5
Thank you Nan, for these weekly reviews.
I especially liked how you concluded with the questions. I wish I knew more of the original propaganda films and how much was paralleled there or referenced there. If the prop. film was cheesy and dripping with "stupid reasons" what does that imply? Likewise, if the prop. film convincingly addresses the question of "Why We Fight" then.... what does Angel need to know that he doesn't now?
Has he forgotten what he said to Spike earlier that they had to do the right thing regardless of whether they were damned? I think I need to look for that exchange and see how it fits with this episode.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Feb 14, 2004 19:56:46 GMT -5
Just wanted to compliment you again Nan, for another great review.
You found the heart of it: the mission thing. The need to know why they fight.
I agree Angel has not figured it out completely. I'm sure he's meant to, though now with the news of cancellation from the WB, I don't know how far we will see things go. Unless Joss can find another outlet for this show (and I don't know that he intends to try), so much of what has been set up and what needs to be resolved will have to die on the vine.
It makes me kinda sick.
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 14, 2004 20:30:10 GMT -5
Just wanted to compliment you again Nan, for another great review. You found the heart of it: the mission thing. The need to know why they fight. I agree Angel has not figured it out completely. I'm sure he's meant to, though now with the news of cancellation from the WB, I don't know how far we will see things go. Unless Joss can find another outlet for this show (and I don't know that he intends to try), so much of what has been set up and what needs to be resolved will have to die on the vine. It makes me kinda sick.Me, too. I'll bounce back and start thinking again, but that hasn't happened yet. Just miserably sogging at this point. I hope you keep on with your analyses, though: you're just getting to the really good parts!
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Feb 14, 2004 21:38:24 GMT -5
Me, too. I'll bounce back and start thinking again, but that hasn't happened yet. Just miserably sogging at this point. I hope you keep on with your analyses, though: you're just getting to the really good parts! I second this motion. You have to keep doing the analyses, Spring, please.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Feb 14, 2004 22:52:56 GMT -5
I second this motion. You have to keep doing the analyses, Spring, please. Well, I finished Out of My Mind today, literally through my tears. It helps so much to have your encouragement. It is even more important now. I echo what Nan said on the main thread - those of us who write analyses or essays or fan-fic will need your feedback and pats on the back more than ever.
|
|
Tesla
Junior S'cubie
the ice is getting thinner
Posts: 11
|
Post by Tesla on Feb 15, 2004 9:32:06 GMT -5
I say this after moping around all weekend, and watching Season Two Buffy DVDs, so it's not like I'm not incredibly depressed, too:
Over on the other side of the 'net, we in the X-Files fandom went through all this. In our case, the agony was wrung out by first, losing David Duchovny as Mulder (and my only reason for living at the time), then with all new cast members. Then, although it did chung along for an 8th and 9th season, many of us retreated into fanfiction---and AUs at that. I mean, the miracle baby!killing off the favorite secondary characters! Alien invasion occurring in 2010. So we had to see our beloved show made into a travesty.
And yet, XF fandom is still very much a presence and the XF fanfiction is alive and well. There are tons of archives and boards, and we're still all fanwanking and whining over fanfiction awards and flaming and writing. In short, except for the lack of spoilers, you'd think the show was still on.
Spring, you have Season Six in May!Nan, you have an entire AU/Spike, and even though you finish THAT series, do. another. (Please? Spike wants you to) The rest of us? We can keep watching and reading and posting. It's our fandom.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Feb 15, 2004 9:41:00 GMT -5
I say this after moping around all weekend, and watching Season Two Buffy DVDs, so it's not like I'm not incredibly depressed, too: Over on the other side of the 'net, we in the X-Files fandom went through all this. In our case, the agony was wrung out by first, losing David Duchovny as Mulder (and my only reason for living at the time), then with all new cast members. Then, although it did chung along for an 8th and 9th season, many of us retreated into fanfiction---and AUs at that. I mean, the miracle baby!killing off the favorite secondary characters! Alien invasion occurring in 2010. So we had to see our beloved show made into a travesty. And yet, XF fandom is still very much a presence and the XF fanfiction is alive and well. There are tons of archives and boards, and we're still all fanwanking and whining over fanfiction awards and flaming and writing. In short, except for the lack of spoilers, you'd think the show was still on. Spring, you have Season Six in May!Nan, you have an entire AU/Spike, and even though you finish THAT series, do. another. (Please? Spike wants you to) The rest of us? We can keep watching and reading and posting. It's our fandom. Thanks for the encouraging words, Tesla. Good stuff. The Kool-aid? Down the drain. And, oh, I can't wait for my Season 6 DVD's, so thanks for that nice reminder of something to really look forward to. I only saw Season 6 in re-runs - all edited and everything, so yes - good call!
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Feb 15, 2004 10:42:47 GMT -5
Just wanted to compliment you again Nan, for another great review. You found the heart of it: the mission thing. The need to know why they fight. I agree Angel has not figured it out completely. I'm sure he's meant to, though now with the news of cancellation from the WB, I don't know how far we will see things go. Unless Joss can find another outlet for this show (and I don't know that he intends to try), so much of what has been set up and what needs to be resolved will have to die on the vine. It makes me kinda sick. What Spring said, Nan. I read where Joss had an ending for this season wrap-up in mind, and he's going to go with it - and it isn't going to change with the cancellation news. He didn't sound too excited about the WB's proposal for a movie - it was more like "I hope my actors are busy doing other stuff at the time". So good wrap up for the season - but not a rushed ending like Buffy. Edit: Just wanted to echo everyone's encouragement for your analyses to continue, Spring. I can't tell you how much I enjoy them.
|
|
|
Post by raenstorm on Feb 15, 2004 13:31:10 GMT -5
Thank you Nan, for these weekly reviews. I especially liked how you concluded with the questions. I wish I knew more of the original propaganda films and how much was paralleled there or referenced there. If the prop. film was cheesy and dripping with "stupid reasons" what does that imply? Likewise, if the prop. film convincingly addresses the question of "Why We Fight" then.... what does Angel need to know that he doesn't now? Has he forgotten what he said to Spike earlier that they had to do the right thing regardless of whether they were damned? I think I need to look for that exchange and see how it fits with this episode. KMI, the original propaganda films showed what was happening around the world as a result of the war... they explained "their" position and "our" position in the war but, what made the real impression on folks, were the pictures from the battlefields and evidence of what the horrendous things Nazis were doing to people. America was just so separated from the actual events that it was hard for us to get behind the war, so the goal was to bring the scenes of war to us. Some of the imagery used in those films would not make it past the censors today... So, I think to it is safe to say they weren't cheesy and dripping with stupid reasons. Plus, I mention this in my guest review, but Lawson even mentions that seeing "pictures" of what was happening is what gave him a purpose for fighting. Nan - Wonderful work, as always. I was waiting until I was done with mine to read any other reviews. Now I'm kinda over it (thinking about this episode, that is) and anxiously awaiting next week so I've got nothing intellectual to say... still, I wanted to let you I enjoyed your review
|
|
|
Post by makd on Feb 15, 2004 14:37:38 GMT -5
Nan as always, another great job! It won't be just Angel we may be missing; it'll be your terrific reviews. I second whomever said earlier that "Why We Fight" is not just the name of this episode, but the reason for the series; Angel's mission. and, um: from Mssrs. Fury and Petrie: "We figure we strap enough weight to you, you will sink, regardless of your interests." hmmm. Fury and Petrie weigh Angel down, and he sinks...Sorta like what's happening in our reality, no? The writers have weighed Angel down, and he is sinking....fast....bummer. pfft. I wasn't going to be depressed. I haven't been able to grade a paper or finish the exam I started, all of which are due tomorrow. And I don't even work for ME. I just can't imagine how badly the cast and crew must be feeling this weekend. Both Angel and Spike just aren't what they seem to be. Angel seems to be Capt. America - but he isn't. Spike seems to be a Nazi - but he isn't; he's gloriously proud to be an ENGLISH vampire. "I'm gonna get us through this safe and sound. " "Angel doesn't know why we fight." Prophetic. I am right how feeling that JW is also tired, like Angel, of fighting the Senior Partners. Can we (the fans) be HIS Cordelia? "Give me a mission, Chief. .. Give me a reason." Angel can't do this. His response is to dust Lawson - to literally put him out of his misery. And so, Angel kills yet another member of his family. (If I were Spike, I'd be afraid, very afraid - and grateful for the soul.) I sincerely hope, based on the latest news about Angel that both Spike AND Angel know why THEY fight by the end of the series. oh, and can we get a pool going for a spinoff? ;D Didn't buy the whole Spike doesn't speak Nazi, bit. He's already shown on BtVS that he's a master of more than one language. fanwank: Spikey was just hungry and snarky? Agree with Dev: Angel should've hired Spike (and Gwen) to beef up the security. Did think Spike's warm welcome to Angel was uncanon. Based on the stories we've seen, Spike has every reason to be suspicious...I mean: "Where DID you go after Romania? Darla drove us crazy!!" and such, would have been more likely, no? And not a question about Dru? Again: "You don't win a war by doing whatever it takes. You win a war by doing what's right." Shades of Buffy (LMPTM) telling Giles you can't fight evil with evil. Yet again: "Or does everyone you sired feel this way?" Shades of Connor. Much better show than one would think at first glance - lots there "under the surface". Goddess, I will miss this show. Nobody does it better. Thanks again for a great review, Nan. "Over and..like, out."
|
|
|
Post by beccaelizabeth on Feb 15, 2004 15:23:05 GMT -5
Nan Didn't buy the whole Spike doesn't speak Nazi, bit. He's already shown on BtVS that he's a master of more than one language. He doesnt speak Chinese or German. He speaks Fyarl, English, Latin, maybe Greek? Not sure on that one, but English, Latin, Greek were standard for educated Victorian gentlemen. I'm told if you know Latin and classical Greek you can get by in Italian and modern greek, and I know from experience that even a very little grounding in Latin makes learning Spanish immensely easier (I slept through my Spanish classes, literally, yet got an A, much to my teachers annoyance). Languages happen in related groups. German is not so much related to Latin, I couldnt learn it easy, so I find it plausible that Spike doesnt know it. Fyarl could be related to anything or nothing but I think its safe to say he learned it as a demon. If he never got round to learning tonal languages like Chinese I'm not surprised, cos they're tricky and some people cant even hear the differences they use unless they've been raised listening to them. Not learning 'Nazi' if he didnt particularly want to live there, very plausible. Angel fits in better to the places he goes- assimilated so well into America he lost his original accent. Classic imigrant, started out in New York, very ethnically and linguistically diverse place. So he knows lots of human languages.
|
|
|
Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 15, 2004 15:56:28 GMT -5
And despite of all temptations To belong to other nations He remains an English man...
Julia, providing today's Gilbert and Sullivan moment ;D
|
|
|
Post by LadyDi on Feb 15, 2004 15:57:28 GMT -5
Again, returning to The X-Files for a moment...in an ep called Triangle Mulder winds up on a boat overrun by Nazis (played by Cancer Man, Spender, et al) and his response to German is very similar to Spike's - "I don't speak Nazi!" DD always said he played Mulder as Jewish (altho' that was never established). The Jews and the Brits had plenty of reason to reject anything related to the Third Reich. As for the language thing, I think they're trying to emphasize Spike's demon-ness in this ep. He's learned demon languages because he's a demon. Humans are just food. Even if he enjoys their music, he doesn't have to understand it to appreciate it. I love that Evil takes a backseat to English for Spike. I knew he was way too British to be working with the Nazis voluntarily, and it ties in nicely with the conversation he and Angel had at the end of Damage. For all his protestations to the contrary, Spike wasn't Big-E Evil, just monumentally insensitive. Fanwankery: maybe he was in Spain picking off Franco supporters. If you're gonna eat people anyway, you could do a lot worse than munch on a bunch of facsists.
|
|