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Post by William the Bloody on Jun 6, 2003 4:01:53 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
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Post by Kerrie on Jun 7, 2003 17:04:57 GMT -5
This is one of my all time favourite episodes. I can't believe the kids don't like it. Thanks to Spring I now understand how the spell worked. I didn't understand it at the time. However, there were a couple of minor points that Spring did not include in her analysis. I think that it was because the points were too minor and not because Spring did not notice them.
Firstly, and this is the bigger of the too minor points. Buffy says to Riley that "Nobody really likes Spike" (possible paraphrase). This is really sad if she means it as a reflection on his personality and not just on his vampireness/vampiricity?. It suggests that at some level she appreciates that he is unlikeable (i.e. the dork that is William).
Second. Did anybody else really like the way Spike picked up the magazines/books after knocking them onto the floor. Obviously the child-hood habit of tidying up had not died. Or is this another foreshadowing that Spike will help clean up after his own mess (season 4 finale).
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Post by Nickim on Jun 7, 2003 17:51:38 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin! One of my favorites. I like Buffy best when it's funny. "William the Bloody or just Spike" on the invitations--what a hoot. Buffy looking at the wedding dresses always wanting to have the normal life she knows just isn't really possible for her, but a girl can always dream. Spike, or is that William, on bended knee, a foreshadowing of the Victorian gentleman we learn that he was when human.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 8, 2003 6:36:45 GMT -5
This is one of my all time favourite episodes. I can't believe the kids don't like it. Thanks to Spring I now understand how the spell worked. I didn't understand it at the time. However, there were a couple of minor points that Spring did not include in her analysis. I think that it was because the points were too minor and not because Spring did not notice them. Firstly, and this is the bigger of the too minor points. Buffy says to Riley that "Nobody really likes Spike" (possible paraphrase). This is really sad if she means it as a reflection on his personality and not just on his vampireness/vampiricity?. It suggests that at some level she appreciates that he is unlikeable (i.e. the dork that is William). Second. Did anybody else really like the way Spike picked up the magazines/books after knocking them onto the floor. Obviously the child-hood habit of tidying up had not died. Or is this another foreshadowing that Spike will help clean up after his own mess (season 4 finale). On the nobody really likes Spike - my take - well, this is early Season 4, and Spike has very recently seriously gone after Buffy (Harsh Light of Day). He's just gotten his chip, and Buffy & The Scoobies have had him chained up, because they're not even sure that he is "impotent" and might not hurt or kill them. He's still saying he'd like to kill them. I don't think they've gotten past the "wants to and might kill us" part, to evaluating his personality independently of that . . . which would be kinda tricky to do, anyhow (though Willow shows him some real sympathy in following episodes). On straightening the books - do you mean the scene in "Hush"?
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 8, 2003 6:40:53 GMT -5
One of my favorites. I like Buffy best when it's funny. "William the Bloody or just Spike" on the invitations--what a hoot. Buffy looking at the wedding dresses always wanting to have the normal life she knows just isn't really possible for her, but a girl can always dream. Spike, or is that William, on bended knee, a foreshadowing of the Victorian gentleman we learn that he was when human. Something Blue was just plain hilarious - Spike on bended knee, asking Buffy to make him "the happiest man on earth!" - it's too much. It is great to watch just for the pure fun of it. By the way, Nickim, I noticed on your pic caption that you want an "all James Marsters channel?" Me too!
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Post by Kerrie on Jun 8, 2003 16:55:13 GMT -5
On the nobody really likes Spike - my take - well, this is early Season 4, and Spike has very recently seriously gone after Buffy (Harsh Light of Day). He's just gotten his chip, and Buffy & The Scoobies have had him chained up, because they're not even sure that he is "impotent" and might not hurt or kill them. He's still saying he'd like to kill them. I don't think they've gotten past the "wants to and might kill us" part, to evaluating his personality independently of that . . . which would be kinda tricky to do, anyhow (though Willow shows him some real sympathy in following episodes). On straightening the books - do you mean the scene in "Hush"? Yes you are right and I was wrong the straightening of the books was from Hush - I hallucinated again (third admission of this today on this board alone - I am on such a roll! ) Regarding the "nobody really likes him" comment I can see your point about the Scoobies not really knowing him and therefore not being able to jusdge , however it seemed to me that it was Buffy who made the comment andshe does know him. She knows him enough to know that Dru has dumped him and probably sensed that Angel and Spike weren't good friends. I also think that it is implied that Buffy and Spike have speical insight into each other. This suggests to me that Buffy could see that nobody liked Spike amongst humans or vampires. (I will conveniently forget Harmony at this point.)
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Post by Queen E on Jun 27, 2003 12:58:09 GMT -5
I liked your observation regarding "Wind Beneath My Wings" with its references to "beneath" and "shadow" and being an unsung hero.
It also seems to relate to Buffy's comment, in Season 7, that Spike's her strength.
Honestly, so many things foreshadow, backshadow, and interrelate in Buffy that it almosts makes me insane; but, you know, in a good way.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 28, 2003 9:46:15 GMT -5
I liked your observation regarding "Wind Beneath My Wings" with its references to "beneath" and "shadow" and being an unsung hero. It also seems to relate to Buffy's comment, in Season 7, that Spike's her strength. Honestly, so many things foreshadow, backshadow, and interrelate in Buffy that it almosts makes me insane; but, you know, in a good way. eg, I could write two or three times more than I do, if I tried to mention every little reference to the themes, or the foreshadowing, that I notice . . . and that's just what I notice. It can make my head spin, but yeah - it's, you know, in a good way.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Sept 29, 2003 6:58:26 GMT -5
This is one of my all time favourite episodes. I can't believe the kids don't like it. Thanks to Spring I now understand how the spell worked. I didn't understand it at the time. However, there were a couple of minor points that Spring did not include in her analysis. I think that it was because the points were too minor and not because Spring did not notice them. Firstly, and this is the bigger of the too minor points. Buffy says to Riley that "Nobody really likes Spike" (possible paraphrase). This is really sad if she means it as a reflection on his personality and not just on his vampireness/vampiricity?. It suggests that at some level she appreciates that he is unlikeable (i.e. the dork that is William). Second. Did anybody else really like the way Spike picked up the magazines/books after knocking them onto the floor. Obviously the child-hood habit of tidying up had not died. Or is this another foreshadowing that Spike will help clean up after his own mess (season 4 finale). At this point in Spike's character development, he has so far only been a major nemsis to the Scoobies. He was the big bad of season 2, kidnapped Willow and Xander in season 3, made a real mess in season 4 going after the Gem of Amarra. I don't think Buffy was meaning to say that no one anywhere at all likes Spike (since Drusilla and Harmony apparently did, as a minimum), but moreso that no one in her circle of friends likes Spike. Then again, not many in her circle of friends really liked Angel, either, especially after he killed Jenny Calendar, soul or no soul.
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Post by fredspuffed on Jul 16, 2004 7:46:32 GMT -5
I really enjoyed . Youre analysis . I thhouht i was aalone and crazy .. Thankyouu oh but i think you forgot to mention spike and buffys hand holding - i thought that was very important their fingers are intertwined i zoomed well whatever i love your analysis and they make me enjoy buffy more so yoiure brilliant ;D
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 16, 2004 10:53:54 GMT -5
I really enjoyed . Youre analysis . I thhouht i was aalone and crazy .. Thankyouu oh but i think you forgot to mention spike and buffys hand holding - i thought that was very important their fingers are intertwined i zoomed well whatever i love your analysis and they make me enjoy buffy more so yoiure brilliant ;D Fredspuffed! Thanks so much for taking the time to let me know you are enjoying my analyses. I started doing them for the same reason you are reading them - because I was feeling so alone and crazy! I wanted to share and see if I could find any kindred spirits. Vlad, our webmaster, afforded me the opportunity, and off we went! I forgot to mention a lot of things in this analysis and in every analysis, because most every line and image is significant to the ep and series themes in some way. So I edit and cut and stick with what hit me the hardest. But you are right, the handholding is significant - really speaks to how in love they are ("I don't like him - but I love him, I do!"). And of course, it's their fingers that do the talking in the Series Finale. I am glad my analyses help you enjoy BtVS. That's the whole idea . . . they help me enjoy it more too. Feel free to come back and comment any time on any of the analyses. Thanks again for the feedback! I've said it before but I'll say it again: This is a huge project and hearing from people really helps me keep going.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 30, 2005 16:25:58 GMT -5
Great review, Spring. Loved all the foreshadowing you pointed out. It's such a fun episode but underneath it all, there's all these hints about much more serious things. I find it particularly painful in retrospect that no one, not even Giles, was more alarmed about Willow's magic and how little discipline she had in using it.
Speaking of foreshadowing:
Willow: Did I mention about the sorry part? Buffy: We may be into a forgetting spell later.
Yeesh!
I think there was a discussion on another thread about Angel and cookie dough ice cream in I Will Remember You and Spike and a cookie in this episode. And I was thinking about Spike's comment about not being able to fight against the demon and protect Buffy and thought it was similar to HumanAngel's concern in I Will Remember You. Now I'm wondering if there are more connections between the two episodes, I'm just not sure what.
I love the Buffy/Riley scene where Buffy's looking at the wedding dresses and Riley gets all tongue tied. I always wonder whether Riley remembered the incident or asked Buffy about it again once he learned who Spike was. Or did he just keep that to himself?
EDIT - Sorry, SOL, I have "moderator rights" on this thread, and I accidentally hit "modify" instead of "quote" in trying to respond to this, and instead of responding, I was unintentionally making alterations to your post! I think I have put everything back as it was originally! My apologies![/size]
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 30, 2005 19:10:09 GMT -5
Great review, Spring. Loved all the foreshadowing you pointed out. It's such a fun episode but underneath it all, there's all these hints about much more serious things. I find it particularly painful in retrospect that no one, not even Giles, was more alarmed about Willow's magic and how little discipline she was in using it. Thanks, glad you liked it. I thought the whole "Buffy's special day she wanted to remember but can't remember" was in deliberate contrast to "Buffy's special day she wants to forget, but can't forget." Also - Angel doing the control thing, making decisions for Buffy in IWRY . . . contrasted with Buffy & Spike sharing their "wedding" decision-making and Spike actually tied up and (sort of) under Buffy's control at the end of SB . . . Giles being blind and ineffectual while Buffy makes her plans, her asking him to give her away (to Spike - which sort of happens in Season 6) all very . . . very much about Buffy starting to let go of childhood and paternal influences, and moving toward adulthood. I had the feeling he just kept it to himself. There is a scene in . . . I guess it must be . . . Goodbye Iowa? where Riley officially meets Spike and learns his name - I always had this impression that he might have put two and two together, but he's got too many other things to worry about there in that scene, with Maggie dead and everything - and it goes right out of his brain, if it entered it at all. Still, I did see that "I'm engaged to Spike!!" scene, as something that might have been part of what preyed on Riley's mind as time continued and he got more and more uncertain of Buffy, and exhibited some repressed worries and jealousy, in regard to Spike & Buffy.
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Post by tichtich on Feb 10, 2006 10:39:34 GMT -5
I never paid attention to "Wind Beneath My Wings" before, but Spring's posting of the lyrics drew my attention to a similarity with another song...
Wind Beneath My Wings ------------------------------ "It must have been cold there in my shadow, to never have sunlight on your face."
I'm Under Your Spell ------------------------- "I lived my life in shadow, never the sun on my face."
Coincidence? I think not.
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Post by William the Bloody on Feb 10, 2006 11:03:08 GMT -5
I never paid attention to "Wind Beneath My Wings" before, but Spring's posting of the lyrics drew my attention to a similarity with another song... Wind Beneath My Wings ------------------------------ "It must have been cold there in my shadow, to never have sunlight on your face." I'm Under Your Spell ------------------------- "I lived my life in shadow, never the sun on my face." Coincidence? I think not. Good catch there Tichtich. Damn it, all this time, Whedon's been plagerizing... damn that hack! Vlad
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