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Post by William the Bloody on Sept 3, 2003 22:20:05 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
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Post by Kerrie on Sept 3, 2003 23:06:10 GMT -5
Another great review Spring. I will not say too much except that I enjoyed the review and will respond in more depth after I have had time to digest it a little. However, I will give you fair warning that your review has made me think of the role of passion and love in relatioships in the Joss-verse.
As an example in this episode Anya quite clearly sees there is some sort of connection between love and passion in relationships. I think she is trying to figure it out in a number of episodes starting when she first seduced Xander to get him out of her head. A strategy that did not work. I really sympathise with her in this episode. The man who feels horny looking at linoleum didn't want to have sex with her. Who wouldn't be angry and hurt? Especially in line with Selfless when it seemd that she was going to use sex to try to control Xander and stop him from straying like Olaf (sp?) did.
Buffy's journey is also about figuring it out.
There is so much more I would like to post, but . . .
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 4, 2003 7:23:08 GMT -5
Another great review Spring. I will not say too much except that I enjoyed the review and will respond in more depth after I have had time to digest it a little. However, I will give you fair warning that your review has made me think of the role of passion and love in relatioships in the Joss-verse. As an example in this episode Anya quite clearly sees there is some sort of connection between love and passion in relationships. I think she is trying to figure it out in a number of episodes starting when she first seduced Xander to get him out of her head. A strategy that did not work. I really sympathise with her in this episode. The man who feels horny looking at linoleum didn't want to have sex with her. Who wouldn't be angry and hurt? Especially in line with Selfless when it seemd that she was going to use sex to try to control Xander and stop him from straying like Olaf (sp?) did. Buffy's journey is also about figuring it out. There is so much more I would like to post, but . . . I am definitely interested in hearing your further thoughts on this, Kerrie - I hope you get a chance to post them. I like Anya in general and I definitely like her in this episode. I do think she is off-the-mark to be hurt just because Xander didn't have sex with her for ONE NIGHT, and I think that this represents the fact that she is, as you basically say, still figuring this out when it comes to man-woman love. BUFFY: It is interesting that the B/R sex takes place upstairs, while the B/S sex takes place usually in basements/underground rooms. Riley was the sensible choice, Spike was the one she was really hot for on a basic, instinctual level. |
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Post by Nickim on Sept 4, 2003 7:51:46 GMT -5
Spring,
I can only say WOW!! You really outdid yourself on this one. Mind, body, instinct--amazing. Loved the way Spike wanted to help, but talked himself out of it. He just didn't have the motivation yet, but the spark of goodness was in there somewhere.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 4, 2003 10:43:56 GMT -5
Spring, I can only say WOW!! You really outdid yourself on this one. Mind, body, instinct--amazing. Loved the way Spike wanted to help, but talked himself out of it. He just didn't have the motivation yet, but the spark of goodness was in there somewhere. Thanks for the feedback, Nickim. I really appreciate the nice words. These analyses take quite a bit of time and effort (though, it's fun for me too) so it is nice to hear directly that it is appreciated. In Season 4, all we get, in relation to Spike, is reason to suspect that there just might be a teeny, tiny bit of goodness left in Spike - and that the chip has begun to create an environment that has allowed that miniscule remnant of William to stir again. He just has the best story arc. Great stuff. |
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Post by LeeHollins on Sept 4, 2003 11:42:41 GMT -5
Ummm.....what can I say that hasn't already been said?
*stands and cheers wildly*
TERRIFIC stuff, Spring! It put the episode in a whole new light for me. I need to re-watch the episode after digesting your wonderful analysis.
I loved all the connections to sex and the three levels of the house as the three "levels" in humans. The idea that a situation isn't necessarily what is dirty but it's the interaction between the three levels that make it so. Intriguing ideas.....
Spring, thanks for the all the hard work and dedication you put into each analysis. GREAT JOB!!!!
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 4, 2003 14:04:39 GMT -5
Ummm.....what can I say that hasn't already been said? *stands and cheers wildly* TERRIFIC stuff, Spring! It put the episode in a whole new light for me. I need to re-watch the episode after digesting your wonderful analysis. I loved all the connections to sex and the three levels of the house as the three "levels" in humans. The idea that a situation isn't necessarily what is dirty but it's the interaction between the three levels that make it so. Intriguing ideas..... Spring, thanks for the all the hard work and dedication you put into each analysis. GREAT JOB!!!! Thanks Lee. If you do have any further thoughts on this after rewatching, do share! I wish I could take credit for the ideas about the three levels, and what is dirty, etc - but I'm only translating for Joss & Co. At least, I think I am . . . or . . . could it all be in my head? Hmmmmm . . . |
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Sept 4, 2003 14:05:47 GMT -5
Spring, I don't know which it is: either your analyses are going from good to stunningly brilliant in huge leaps or I am finally reading them with a more thoughtful mind.
Whichever is true, I am finding it difficult to find things superficial enough to talk about....first Superstar and now this one - they are hitting me with truths I don't have words for - you used the words, and all I can do is nod and say 'yes...that's it, yes.'
I want to do your analysis justice - it deserves more than just 'job well done', but you'll just have to take my word for it.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 4, 2003 15:12:37 GMT -5
Spring, I don't know which it is: either your analyses are going from good to stunningly brilliant in huge leaps or I am finally reading them with a more thoughtful mind. Whichever is true, I am finding it difficult to find things superficial enough to talk about....first Superstar and now this one - they are hitting me with truths I don't have words for - you used the words, and all I can do is nod and say 'yes...that's it, yes.' I want to do your analysis justice - it deserves more than just 'job well done', but you'll just have to take my word for it. Thanks, Patti. It means a lot to me that people take the time to give me feedback. It does give me encouragement to keep on truckin' with this fairly ambitious project! From my perspective, the quality of my analyses vary with the quality of the episode itself and its structure - the more brilliantly woven and presented an episode, the more I can do in analyzing it. But of course, that is a purely subjective viewpoint . . . I'm sure that the writers of episodes I think of as less tightly woven or less "jam-packed" with brilliant but subtle images of profound truths (and the like) might feel that I just didn't see everything there was to see. And they may very well be right. I think, too, that my own personal level of interest in an episode and its major themes makes a big difference. I like Season 4, and its more "grown-up" and "growing up" themes - they strike more of a chord with me than the high-schooler's angst of Season 2. Also, yes maybe I'm getting better at this with practice. I never dreamed, when I did SchoolHard, that I'd get this far, or manage to keep up the quality level. I remember telling Vlad how scary it was. He was great with the encouragement and praise, too. |
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Post by Rob on Sept 4, 2003 15:50:25 GMT -5
Of course, when I say "stuff" in the subject line, I meant...  "Where The Wild Things Are" has never been a favorite among BTVS episodes for me...even though Xander (as you very correctly point out) is the most heroic member of the gang. However, Xander's drowning scene...and Anya's determination to save him no matter what...is a brilliant symbolic sequence where their characters are concerned. There are many parallels between Xander/Anya and Buffy/Spike if one chooses to look for them, and I think it explains the way Anya and Spike have always identified with one another. In fact, the similarities in plot development are positively striking: Anya and Spike, initially against their will, lost their supernatural abilities to hurt humans. Anya finds herself attracted to Xander. Spike has always been attracted to Buffy. Both Buffy and Xander are initially horrified by the advances. Xander eventually accepts Anya's attentions because he is lost and alone. His friends are in college...and he is seemingly going nowhere. Anya, even at this time, still wants him...and he clings to her like a...well, a drowning man. When Buffy comes back, she is a shell of her former self...so she also accepts Spike's attentions...because she is quite aware that he will always want her. Both Buffy and Xander eventually reject Spike and Anya (though for entirely different psychological reasons, of course)...and both demons briefly regress due to the pain. Spike attempts to rape Buffy; Anya, though unable to strike out at Xander directly, resumes wreaking vengeance on humans. Finally, in season 7, both couples slowly gravitate toward one another... This time both Anya and Spike choose to have their humanity restored. Both Xander and Buffy, even with their betrayal, have inspired them to fight on the side of Good. Lastly, both Spike and Anya--the two members of the group who have done the most harm to humans during their demonic pasts--sacrifice their lives for the cause. The fact that Spike's death is more openly heroic makes sense; it is reflective of Buffy and Xander's relative roles as well. Anya's death is every bit as heroic...but on a smaller scale, just as Xander's heroism is more subtle than Buffy's. The characters are very different...but in a lot of interesting ways, Xander and Anya mirror Spike and Buffy. Think about it. |
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Post by Kerrie on Sept 4, 2003 16:49:18 GMT -5
Of course, when I say "stuff" in the subject line, I meant... "Where The Wild Things Are" has never been a favorite among BTVS episodes for me...even though Xander (as you very correctly point out) is the most heroic memver of the gang. However, Xander's drowning scene...and Anya's determination to save him no matter what...is a brilliant symbolic sequence where their characters are concerned. There are many parallels between Xander/Anya and Buffy/Spike if one chooses to look for them, and I think it explains the way Anya and Spike have always identified with one another. In fact, the similarities in plot development are positively striking: Anya and Spike, initially against their will, lost their supernatural abilities to hurt humans. Anya finds herself attracted to Xander. Spike has always been attracted to Buffy. Both Buffy and Xander are initially horrified by the advances. Xander eventually accepts Anya's attentions because he is lost and alone. His friends are in college...and he is seemingly going nowhere. Anya, even at this time, still wants him...and he clings to her like a...well, a drowning man. When Buffy comes back, she is a shell of her former self...so she also accepts Spike's attentions...because she is quite aware that he will always want her. Both Buffy and Xander eventually reject Spike and Anya (though for entirely different psychological reasons, of course)...and both demons briefly regress due to the pain. Spike attempts to rape Buffy; Anya, though unable to strike out at Xander directly, resumes wreaking vengeance on humans. Finally, in season 7, both couples slowly gravitate toward one another... This time both Anya and Spike choose to have their humanity restored. Both Xander and Buffy, even with their betrayal, have inspired them to fight on the side of Good. Lastly, both Spike and Anya--the two members of the group who have done the most harm to humans during their demonic pasts--sacrifice their lives for the cause. The fact that Spike's death is more openly heroic makes sense; it is reflective of Buffy and Xander's relative roles as well. Anya's death is every bit as heroic...but on a smaller scale, just as Xander's heroism is more subtle than Buffy's. The characters as very different...but in a lot of interesting ways, Xander and Anya mirror Spike and Buffy. Think about it. I hadn't thought about it but I thnk you are right Rob. There are similarities between the two relationships. What Spring's analysis did was make me think about Anya and Xanders' relationship. It is still making me think about it, so I'll probably be post again later - probably on the main thread as it is a more general thought. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 5, 2003 7:09:41 GMT -5
I hadn't thought about it but I thnk you are right Rob. There are similarities between the two relationships. What Spring's analysis did was make me think about Anya and Xanders' relationship. It is still making me think about it, so I'll probably be post again later - probably on the main thread as it is a more general thought. ROB: Thanks for loving my stuff.  Yes, I agree - good, valid insights - there is some definite paralleling between the X/A and B/S relationships. In Season 6, we get paralleling with the Willow/Tara relationship also for Buffy & Spike - though - deliberately I think - exactly "which one" is "Buffy" and which one is "Spike" changes and sort of smooshes together. I am going to be touching on this kind of thing in my next analysis - New Moon Rising. KERRIE: The Xander/Anya relationship is an interesting and complex one. They both have their faults, but ultimately, I think their relationship ends up being an overall positive for both. |
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Post by penny on Sept 5, 2003 14:55:26 GMT -5
Spring Summers, I have been greatly enjoying these episode analyses since they began. I love the themes and patterns you can find and articulate. I haven't said anything to this effect before because web-boards and I don't interact well.
Hope this posts properly...
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 5, 2003 15:55:31 GMT -5
Spring Summers, I have been greatly enjoying these episode analyses since they began. I love the themes and patterns you can find and articulate. I haven't said anything to this effect before because web-boards and I don't interact well. Hope this posts properly... PENNY: Well - you know yourself best, but please post away on this Spikecentricity thread or any other of our threads, anytime you feel comfortable doing so. This isn't a perfect bunch, but civil and caring and tolerant of imperfections. It means a lot to me to get such positive feedback. It is quite an effort doing those analyses, and in my more . . . "Season2-Willowlike" moments, I wonder if anyone is reading them or likes them, etc. Thanks again for taking the time to let me know you appreciate my work on the eps. |
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Post by Kerrie on Sept 6, 2003 4:36:33 GMT -5
Spring Summers, I have been greatly enjoying these episode analyses since they began. I love the themes and patterns you can find and articulate. I haven't said anything to this effect before because web-boards and I don't interact well. Hope this posts properly... Hi Penny. I think that you will find amongst the S'Cubies a lot of people who frequently fall foul of the techno-gods and lose things. Thankfully our techno-pagons are very knowledgeable and helpful and you will get nothing but sympathy from the rest of us when things go kerblewy. Welcome to the boards. Please post more. |
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"Where The Wild Things Are" has never been a favorite among BTVS episodes for me...even though Xander (as you very correctly point out) is the most heroic member of the gang.
