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Post by Laura on Sept 13, 2003 16:59:36 GMT -5
I think we probably do agree- we usually do. However, after saying that I thought that Buffy wanted to view Spike as an unfortunate series of one night stands. The fact that he went elsewhere after they "broke up" instead of dying of unrequited love would arouse, I suspect, a certain amount of jealousy in Buffy. The show is all about Buffy after all and even the other characters realise this. I am sorry to have misunderstood the spiritual nature of your love for JM. No doubt Patti's "love" is purely lust, but yours would withstand the closest scrutiny, I am sure. Kerrie and Spring, I have to tell you both how much I've enjoyed your dialogue on this topic. It's been very stimulating from both an intellectual and -- er, shall we say, an esthetic? point of view!
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 15, 2003 7:27:55 GMT -5
I think we probably do agree- we usually do. However, after saying that I thought that Buffy wanted to view Spike as an unfortunate series of one night stands. The fact that he went elsewhere after they "broke up" instead of dying of unrequited love would arouse, I suspect, a certain amount of jealousy in Buffy. The show is all about Buffy after all and even the other characters realise this. I am sorry to have misunderstood the spiritual nature of your love for JM. No doubt Patti's "love" is purely lust, but yours would withstand the closest scrutiny, I am sure. I agree that Buffy "wanted to view" her affair with Spike as being "sex only" - as evidenced by her amazing comment that he was "just convenient" (he was anything but convenient)- which followed an even more unbelievable comment that he did NOT make her hot (what's that?). My point is that she was in denial here; the truth of the matter is that it was not "just sex" - i.e., it was not just a series of one night stands. They had been through a lot together by this time and known each other for years; she was trusting him with her body, her heart, her sister and her secrets; they were very much alike and a very strong and real emotional connection had developed . . . whether Buffy wanted to believe it, or not. This is evidenced not only in the jealousy, but in Buffy's inability to stop thinking of Spike, in her "Dead Things" longing for him at his crypt door, and even in the way she beats him up. I don't agree that people ever have feelings like this for someone who is just a series of one night stands. So if you're saying Buffy "wanted to see it as just sex" then I agree (though she herself let go of this notion to some extent, before the end of the season). If you're saying it actually WAS just a series of one-night stands, then I disagree. And many thanks for acknowledging the highbrow nature of my admiration for Spike's tight pants JM. As far as Patti goes - Yes, I think she is just using him.
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Post by Kerrie on Sept 15, 2003 16:06:39 GMT -5
I agree that Buffy "wanted to view" her affair with Spike as being "sex only" - as evidenced by her amazing comment that he was "just convenient" (he was anything but convenient)- which followed an even more unbelievable comment that he did NOT make her hot (what's that?). My point is that she was in denial here; the truth of the matter is that it was not "just sex" - i.e., it was not just a series of one night stands. They had been through a lot together by this time and known each other for years; she was trusting him with her body, her heart, her sister and her secrets; they were very much alike and a very strong and real emotional connection had developed . . . whether Buffy wanted to believe it, or not. This is evidenced not only in the jealousy, but in Buffy's inability to stop thinking of Spike, in her "Dead Things" longing for him at his crypt door, and even in the way she beats him up. I don't agree that people ever have feelings like this for someone who is just a series of one night stands. So if you're saying Buffy "wanted to see it as just sex" then I agree (though she herself let go of this notion to some extent, before the end of the season). If you're saying it actually WAS just a series of one-night stands, then I disagree. And many thanks for acknowledging the highbrow nature of my admiration for Spike's tight pants JM. As far as Patti goes - Yes, I think she is just using him. I think you are right, Spring. Buffy's view of the relaionship changed to fit the reality - it was more than just sex and Buffy realised this before the end. Although I don't think she ever realised how much she did like Spike. In "Normal Again", she was still denying that she liked some aspects of Spike. In "Wrecked", Spike mentions "nasty names" (like luv) that they called each other during "Smashed". We never did find out what they were. This is not my mind wandering back down into the gutter - the idea that Buffy used endearments with Spike, at that point, always struck me as odd unless she really was pretending he was someone else. But, as I said in my essay, that is a soulless thing to do. Surely Buffy wouldn't have pretended he was Angel or Riley! The problem is Buffy was in such a dark place in season 6 it is difficult to know what she was doing or thinking. My guess is that she was not doing a lot of "high quality" thinking about her actions or thoughts.
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Post by Kerrie on Sept 15, 2003 16:09:11 GMT -5
Kerrie and Spring, I have to tell you both how much I've enjoyed your dialogue on this topic. It's been very stimulating from both an intellectual and -- er, shall we say, an esthetic? point of view!
Thank you Laura. I had wondered who else was reading.
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Post by Laura on Sept 15, 2003 16:17:48 GMT -5
Thank you Laura. I had wondered who else was reading. I'm still reading! ;D
And since it's already Tuesday where you are, Happy Birthday Kerrie!
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Post by Kerrie on Sept 15, 2003 16:36:54 GMT -5
I'm still reading! ;D
And since it's already Tuesday where you are, Happy Birthday Kerrie! Thanks Laura.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 15, 2003 16:43:11 GMT -5
I think you are right, Spring. Buffy's view of the relaionship changed to fit the reality - it was more than just sex and Buffy realised this before the end. Although I don't think she ever realised how much she did like Spike. In "Normal Again", she was still denying that she liked some aspects of Spike. In "Wrecked", Spike mentions "nasty names" (like luv) that they called each other during "Smashed". We never did find out what they were. This is not my mind wandering back down into the gutter - the idea that Buffy used endearments with Spike, at that point, always struck me as odd unless she really was pretending he was someone else. But, as I said in my essay, that is a soulless thing to do. Surely Buffy wouldn't have pretended he was Angel or Riley! The problem is Buffy was in such a dark place in season 6 it is difficult to know what she was doing or thinking. My guess is that she was not doing a lot of "high quality" thinking about her actions or thoughts. Yes agreed - Buffy was trying NOT to think about her relationship with Spike. Nasties they called each other? I'm pretty sure they were actual nasties. Very nasty, nasties, nothing to nasty. I mean, they wasn't exactly pretty, tender sex they were having. "Luv" was probably as nice as it got. No way Buffy had any pretense going on during that sex, it was all very raw and real - she wasn't doing any "romantic" pretending. When Spike tells her that he was "the best" she ever had, you just know it's the truth. LAURA: Hi! Thanks for your comments - not that Kerri and I need much encouragement . . .
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Post by Kerrie on Sept 15, 2003 17:11:13 GMT -5
Yes agreed - Buffy was trying NOT to think about her relationship with Spike. Nasties they called each other? I'm pretty sure they were actual nasties. Very nasty, nasties, nothing to nasty. I mean, they wasn't exactly pretty, tender sex they were having. "Luv" was probably as nice as it got. No way Buffy had any pretense going on during that sex, it was all very raw and real - she wasn't doing any "romantic" pretending. When Spike tells her that he was "the best" she ever had, you just know it's the truth. LAURA: Hi! Thanks for your comments - not that Kerri and I need much encouragement . . . First, Nasty Names. In "Wrecked", Spike calls Buffy 'Luv' and she objects and he asks her about the other nasty names they called each other. Buffy doesn't respond although she may even start trying to hurt Spike's feelings at that point. I am hoping that this exchange about the nasty names was unversal.b Some scenes are not. Second. We only saw Buffy and Spike have sex twice in "Smashed". Both times it was silent. Presumeably we missed the quieter, possibly more romantic, endearment-calling sex. The part where Buffy may have been pretending Spike was someone else. Buffy says "It wasn't about you" or something like that making me think that she was pretending. This is independent of whether it was the best she had ever had.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 16, 2003 7:02:03 GMT -5
First, Nasty Names. In "Wrecked", Spike calls Buffy 'Luv' and she objects and he asks her about the other nasty names they called each other. Buffy doesn't respond although she may even start trying to hurt Spike's feelings at that point. I am hoping that this exchange about the nasty names was unversal.b Some scenes are not. Second. We only saw Buffy and Spike have sex twice in "Smashed". Both times it was silent. Presumeably we missed the quieter, possibly more romantic, endearment-calling sex. The part where Buffy may have been pretending Spike was someone else. Buffy says "It wasn't about you" or something like that making me think that she was pretending. This is independent of whether it was the best she had ever had. Yes, I remember the "the other nasties we called each other" line. And I thought it referred to . . . well, nasties they called each other. I don't think their sex got any more tender; I thought, from the morning after scene, that things stayed . . . well, less than tender. I didn't see any evidence of pretending of any sort for either party - I don't think "the best sex you ever had" requires any pretending . . . in fact, if you feel compelled to pretend, it can't be the best. Buffy does say things about how he isn't anything special and he is just convenient, and only one vampire makes her hot, and it's not Spike - but this the part where she is pretending.
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Post by Kerrie on Sept 16, 2003 14:33:15 GMT -5
Yes, I remember the "the other nasties we called each other" line. And I thought it referred to . . . well, nasties they called each other. I don't think their sex got any more tender; I thought, from the morning after scene, that things stayed . . . well, less than tender. I didn't see any evidence of pretending of any sort for either party - I don't think "the best sex you ever had" requires any pretending . . . in fact, if you feel compelled to pretend, it can't be the best. Buffy does say things about how he isn't anything special and he is just convenient, and only one vampire makes her hot, and it's not Spike - but this the part where she is pretending. After watching the episode again yesterday, you are probably right about everything except the 'nasty names'. If 'luv' is an example, how can they be 'nasty'? It just doesn't seem that nasty to me - it seems affectionate. To me judging by Spike's look when he made the comment it seemed that they had been whispering other terms of affection to each other. He is using 'nasty' as a descriptor because of Buffy's attitude. Or at least that was my interpretation.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 16, 2003 15:29:34 GMT -5
After watching the episode again yesterday, you are probably right about everything except the 'nasty names'. If 'luv' is an example, how can they be 'nasty'? It just doesn't seem that nasty to me - it seems affectionate. To me judging by Spike's look when he made the comment it seemed that they had been whispering other terms of affection to each other. He is using 'nasty' as a descriptor because of Buffy's attitude. Or at least that was my interpretation. Yes, I do agree - I think Spike is using "nasty" as a way to describe the endearment "luv," because of Buffy's attitude. "Luv" is not a nasty name, after all. But I still don't doubt they whispered some actual nasties among the not so nasties. It just seems to fit so well with what little we saw of Buffy & Spike's wild first encounter . . . I can easily imagine a not so nice name slipping out among the "luvs" or "honeys" or whatever more traditional names might have escaped their lips. Nasty name calling just goes so well with the slapping and slamming each other around part. It seems a natural. That whole encounter was amazing, as was the morning-after scene. I have a long way to go before I do a formal analysis of Smashed or Wrecked, but I am looking forward to it. The Spuffy-sex was very very far from "just sex." As Spike says: "It was a revelation." Buffy doesn't want to hear or believe that, because she's not happy with what's being revealed. But . . . there is so much going on in that relationship, and the exploration of sexuality, which began in earnest for BtVS with Where the Wild Things Are, really takes off in Season 6.
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Post by Karen on Sept 16, 2003 15:48:26 GMT -5
Thank you Laura. I had wondered who else was reading. Oh, I've been lurking, too. And have been very interested in your discussion with Spring. I think Buffy was discovering her sexuality and coming to terms with the power she had over men, too. It'a a scary thing, having someone so in love with you they are willing to die. Anyway, carry on, my comments usually come from left field, but I like reading your comments for the stimulation.
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Post by deborah on Sept 16, 2003 16:42:17 GMT -5
I'm still reading! ;D
And since it's already Tuesday where you are, Happy Birthday Kerrie! I'm reading it all now and thoroughly engrossed, not to mention awestruck at both of your (Kerrie & Spring) insights. You guys think real good. and HAPPY BIRTHDAY KERRIE
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Post by deborah on Sept 16, 2003 16:49:12 GMT -5
Spring, I just wanted to let you know that I finally read your analysis on WWTA last night and I was awed all the way through it. It's like the difference between night and day, what I got out of it before vs what I should see now with the benefit of your many insights. I want to re-read your analysis just before watching the episode again so it will all be fresh in my mind.
Super, super job. I would love to get JW's reaction to it.
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Post by Kerrie on Sept 16, 2003 16:53:46 GMT -5
Yes, I do agree - I think Spike is using "nasty" as a way to describe the endearment "luv," because of Buffy's attitude. "Luv" is not a nasty name, after all. But I still don't doubt they whispered some actual nasties among the not so nasties. It just seems to fit so well with what little we saw of Buffy & Spike's wild first encounter . . . I can easily imagine a not so nice name slipping out among the "luvs" or "honeys" or whatever more traditional names might have escaped their lips. Nasty name calling just goes so well with the slapping and slamming each other around part. It seems a natural. That whole encounter was amazing, as was the morning-after scene. I have a long way to go before I do a formal analysis of Smashed or Wrecked, but I am looking forward to it. The Spuffy-sex was very very far from "just sex." As Spike says: "It was a revelation." Buffy doesn't want to hear or believe that, because she's not happy with what's being revealed. But . . . there is so much going on in that relationship, and the exploration of sexuality, which began in earnest for BtVS with Where the Wild Things Are, really takes off in Season 6. I think I find it easier to imagine Buffy whispering the real nasty names than the endearments given the scenario and the fact that Buffy doesn't use endearments not even with Angel. I can't wait until you start analysing season 5 and 6 in earnest. Season 6 was so difficult to understand that I got totally hooked by BtVS. It has been almost 2 years and I am still coming to grips with it.
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