|
Post by Onjel on Jan 10, 2005 11:03:56 GMT -5
Another excellent review, Spring! I am particularly caught up with the ideas you expressed about Buffy having to become an adult an live in what she terms the "real world". I don't think we see Buffy become an adult until Season 7, or at the earliest, late Season 6.
Through most of S6 Buffy wants to leave this life, and the role of an adult that she must assume. Granted, she was not happy about being resurrected, but I feel that is more about now she really should step up to the plate and deal with life's tough decisions and situations and never felt ready or capable. Look how she responds to the presence of Giles. She hangs her "parental" duties on his shoulder like a coat rack. She won't discipline Dawn and looks to him to sort out her financial situation. She leaves him in charge and runs to see Angel, and thinks that buying fast food chicken is like making dinner for the family upon her return. The look on her face when she sees everyone seated at the dining room table having eaten a real meal, says it all.
She also leans heavily on Spike, relying upon him to find her tormentors, and when all she succeeds in doing is getting sick/drunk and has no answers, lashes out at him for not making everything right.
My take is that she refuses to live in the real (adult) world until Willow almost ends it. Being an adult can be hard, bright, cruel, noisy, etc. Ideal childhood, like we are supposed to believe Buffy had, without its worries, bills, chores, struggles, confrontations, etc. is peaceful. Maybe my thoughts are due, in very large measure, to the fact that I now believe, in my advancing years, that being 5 years old is the most peaceful age. No care, no worries, no responsibilities. Buffy's greatest responsibility has been to "save the world" which, when you think about what adults have to do everyday, doesn't seem that tough.
Maybe I can be more eloquent when I think this through some more, but that part of your analysis struck a chord with me. Thanks again for your thoughts.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jan 10, 2005 14:37:43 GMT -5
Another excellent review, Spring! Thanks, and thanks for providing some feedback. I think she builds up to it, but Lies My Parents Told Me is the ep that I would choose as the turning point. She literally tells Giles he's taught her all he can, or something like that. She shuts the door on him. She doesn't do it in any angry, rebellious, childlike way . . . she still demonstrates respect for him in the eps to come. But something has changed. Buffy has truly crossed the line she's been toeing up to: She's become an adult. Her journey's not over, of course - her journey away from the line and further into adulthood, I mean, because it's never over, for any of us. My feelings exactly. Gosh, I have to get a move on with these analyses. I love Season 6 and want to get my teeth into it better. You're welcome, and thanks for sharing your thoughts. I feel the same way about the final Seasons and Buffy's journey through them.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jan 10, 2005 20:19:57 GMT -5
Thanks for another great analysis, Spring! The first thing I did when re-watching this ep (to prep for reading your review), was to jot down the title. Forever. Because I wanted to think about what is forever and what isn’t forever here. I really liked how you talked about “what it’s all about” in this ep. Because, as you mention, those are the things that are forever. Life and death and how they circle around and need each other and lead into each other. In the presence of death, we feel a need to connect with life, with other people. Buffy and Dawn, the two who should most naturally be turning to each other for comfort, the grieving family left behind, keep missing each other. I was so glad you pointed out, however: And it is that family connection that brings them together at the end, when they each finally speak honestly, if harshly, to each other. When Buffy shows that what she really still wants is her mommy and Dawn realizes she must be the one to make the grown up decision to tear the picture and end the spell. Thanks also for pointing out that Doc is humming a tune from Peter and the Wolf. It was driving me nuts that I knew the music but could not put my finger on what it was exactly! ;D There is so much we learn about Willow in this episode as well, if we look. How eager she is to “fix” things, how much she can’t stand for people to be unhappy and for things not to be the way she wants, how delighted she is by the idea of using magic to “help” somehow. “Like a glamour! Or I could make a stuffed animal dance!” Or how about helping little Dawnie get her hands on a magical book? How about that, Willow? Buffy asks Dawn, “who helped you?” and our thoughts turn so quickly to Spike (and if we think about it, Doc). But really, who started the helping? Willow. Did she really want Dawn heading off to do a spell? Did she hope that reading would encourage Dawn to turn to her, to want to learn something, to give Willow an opportunity to help by parading some of her magical knowledge around? So much here to give us a clue about next season, too. Resurrections spells. Buffy being warned that people “come back wrong”. Tara being very clear that messing with the natural order of things is wrong and Willow looking not so on board with that idea. Spike willing to do whatever it takes, no matter how much it may harm him and without really caring about some of the longer range consequences, if it is for someone he loves. Buffy’s slayer façade covering a big pit of uncertainty and fear. Giles’ quiet isolation. Xander’s unreadiness for the kind of life Anya would like to be moving toward. Loved your mention of the shot of Buffy by the grave as night falls. So telling. And you do an excellent job of breaking down the scenes between Buffy and Angel. The momentary longing (probably on both their parts) for the past they had. Their mutual understanding of why they can’t go back to those roles, be those people they were before. And mostly, I loved your advice to Buffy. Be a tree – take nourishment from the true love of your friends and family. In effect – love, give, forgive. Risk the pain. You’re full of love. Oh wait. That’s the next one, isn’t it? Thanks again, Spring – nice job! Lola
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jan 10, 2005 20:52:08 GMT -5
Thanks for another great analysis, Spring! You're very welcome. Yes, tons of foreshadowing . . . though . . . I guess a better word, or another word, might be "build-up." Our characters are slowly heading toward the places they will be in Season 6. I know I've read some criticism of Season 6 that suggested that Buffy wasn't Buffy anymore, the characters weren't themselves, as if they'd been through an abrupt change. But it didn't seem that way at all to me. I thought the foundation was very well laid, and supported everything that happened. Yep. Am working on that one. Have made some progress. I have a long weekend coming up, with Martin Luther King day on Monday, so I think it could actually get done! You're welcome, again. And thanks for the feedback and for your always interesting and insightful additions to these threads.
|
|
|
Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 10, 2005 21:16:17 GMT -5
Yes, tons of foreshadowing . . . though . . . I guess a better word, or another word, might be "build-up." Our characters are slowly heading toward the places they will be in Season 6. I know I've read some criticism of Season 6 that suggested that Buffy wasn't Buffy anymore, the characters weren't themselves, as if they'd been through an abrupt change. But it didn't seem that way at all to me. I thought the foundation was very well laid, and supported everything that happened. Yep. Am working on that one. Have made some progress. I have a long weekend coming up, with Martin Luther King day on Monday, so I think it could actually get done! You're welcome, again. And thanks for the feedback and for your always interesting and insightful additions to these threads. I like the idea of "build-up" rather than "foreshadowing." I think that's a more appropriate way of looking at it. If you look at Buffy like a television novel, then season 6 is the climax of the novel, and seasons 1-5 are basically exposition and rising action. I think people who had a problem with season 6 didn't want to see all the clues, hints of the more darker sides of each character (or hints of the tiny bit of goodness in Spike's case), laid out in the earlier seasons. Thanks for pointing out, Lola, about the tension in the Xander/Anya scene when they're talking about making life as a hint as to the troubles in their relationship. I had never noticed that before. Looking forward to your Intervention analysis, Spring.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jan 11, 2005 9:40:37 GMT -5
I like the idea of "build-up" rather than "foreshadowing." I think that's a more appropriate way of looking at it. If you look at Buffy like a television novel, then season 6 is the climax of the novel, and seasons 1-5 are basically exposition and rising action. I think people who had a problem with season 6 didn't want to see all the clues, hints of the more darker sides of each character (or hints of the tiny bit of goodness in Spike's case), laid out in the earlier seasons. My feeling exactly. Season 3, with the Faith interaction, really set 6 up especially well, I thought - Buffy does some very "dark" things, including the darkest thing she will ever do - try to actually kill a human being and fellow Slayer, Faith. What's boinking Spike compared to that? We also get that erotized "Angel drinking from Buffy" scene, pointing strongly at Buffy's "little bit in love" with pain and death M.O., and the more overt masochism of her Season 6 affair with Spike - and we get that "kiss on the forehead" to the comatose Faith. She's put Faith in that hospital bed, but . . . she also has an attachment to Faith, to her darkside; she loves her and hates her, and of course, she doesn't succeed in killing her. She tries to ignore Faith existence, but Faith pops back up, eventually. So no, I have never understood the "what happened to our characters!" Season 6 talk. There was a slow and believable and careful build up. Yes - I liked that comment of Lola's also . . . Xander so plainly doesn't feel ready for real commitment. Like Buffy, he doesn't truly "grow up," and let go of his idealized view of Buffy (and his lingering infatuation with her), until Season 7. He's moving toward that all through the Season, and when he loses his eye, I think that's the turning point. He begins to really see - to take Buffy off the pedestal, to understand the world isn't really the black-and-white world of childhood, populated with perfect heroes or absolute villians, etc. Xander is a full character on his own, but he is also "Buffy's heart" and what is happening with him reflects what is happening with Buffy's heart, throughout the series.
|
|
|
Post by Onjel on Jan 12, 2005 8:54:06 GMT -5
Thanks, and thanks for providing some feedback. I think she builds up to it, but Lies My Parents Told Me is the ep that I would choose as the turning point. She literally tells Giles he's taught her all he can, or something like that. She shuts the door on him. She doesn't do it in any angry, rebellious, childlike way . . . she still demonstrates respect for him in the eps to come. But something has changed. Buffy has truly crossed the line she's been toeing up to: She's become an adult. Her journey's not over, of course - her journey away from the line and further into adulthood, I mean, because it's never over, for any of us. Absolutely! Now that you identified the ep I see it clearly! I also think S6 was a deeper exploration of the characters' facets and don't think they were missing. Looking forward to your next analysis.
|
|
|
Post by LadyDi on Jan 12, 2005 22:21:21 GMT -5
Oh - I guess that's so in a way. I mean . . . there's no "pass on the genes" future in a relationship that won't result in babies. But - it didn't seem to be about . . . particular relationships at all. It seemed to say that, in fact, ALL individual lives and relationships are fleeting. Everything must end, because we all die. But the legacies we leave behind are lasting . . . and I thought the ep, in different ways, addressed that in terms of both biology (if we procreate, we literally leave a part of ourselves behind) and in terms of what we give and teach to others. Joyce didn't leave JUST her genes behind, we see that. Long story short, I thought it was a balanced pic overall. I didn't think it meant to suggest, in any way, that relationships that can't result in babies can't be as meaningful. Not sure I'm totally getting your point, but . . . such are my thoughts on the matter . . . Have not been able to get much done on Intervention. CURSES! But hope to carve out some time tomorrow. Perhaps 'future' wasn't the right word. Fulfillment is better. But I've rethought my position on this anyway. When Buffy says she "doesn't forsee" grandkids w/Spike in Chosen, she seems like she's actually ok with that. Plus, she's allowing for the possibility, 'cuz she didn't forsee the soul, either.
|
|
|
Post by makd on Jan 15, 2005 1:18:08 GMT -5
don't know if it's been mentioned, but Joel Grey is very well known in NYC circles for his performances about 30-40 years ago in Peter and the Wolf. I took it (in Forever) as an homage to a previous theatrical coup.)
Hi, makd! Thanks for dropping by with this info. No doubt it played a big part in the selection of that little ditty for the scene. It "fits" the scene and the character while providing this little homage. Nice.
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Jan 15, 2005 9:34:10 GMT -5
don't know if it's been mentioned, but Joel Grey is very well known in NYC circles for his performances about 30-40 years ago in Peter and the Wolf. I took it (in Forever) as an homage to a previous theatrical coup.) Cool tidbit, makd.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jan 15, 2005 10:01:36 GMT -5
Hi, makd! I echo, Nicki - thanks for dropping by with this bit of info. No doubt it played a big part in the selection of that little ditty for the scene. It "fits" the scene and the character while providing this little homage. Nice.
|
|
|
Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 15, 2005 11:38:37 GMT -5
don't know if it's been mentioned, but Joel Grey is very well known in NYC circles for his performances about 30-40 years ago in Peter and the Wolf. I took it (in Forever) as an homage to a previous theatrical coup.) Thanks for the info. Don't suppose you happen to know if he ever did a play about a guy playing checkers?
|
|
|
Post by Kerrie on Jan 16, 2005 22:29:24 GMT -5
Another great analysis. My mother told me a few days ago that my father has liver and bowel cancer - he needs more tests before the doctors can say anything about his chances, but I am not optimistic. Needless to say it was a huge shock to all of my family. My dad and I are very close despite the fact that we don't get a chance to talk much. I admit that I have been totally shattered by the news. Your analysis in it's own small way makes me feel a bit better. Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jan 16, 2005 22:55:50 GMT -5
Another great analysis. My mother told me a few days ago that my father has liver and bowel cancer - he needs more tests before the doctors can say anything about his chances, but I am not optimistic. Needless to say it was a huge shock to all of my family. My dad and I are very close despite the fact that we don't get a chance to talk much. I admit that I have been totally shattered by the news. Your analysis in it's own small way makes me feel a bit better. Thank you. Oh, Kerrie. I am so sorry. What a terrible shock for you and your dad and your whole family. You have a challenging time ahead, and I think I speak for all the S'cubies when I say that if we can be of any help - as far as a place to come and share some feelings or blow off some steam or whatever - please take advantage. Post here or in the main thread or IM those of us you are comfortable with. All my sympathies. I am humbled that my analysis helped in even a tiny way. My thoughts and prayers are with you and yours. Take good care of yourself.
|
|
|
Post by Sue on Jan 17, 2005 15:38:38 GMT -5
Another great analysis. My mother told me a few days ago that my father has liver and bowel cancer - he needs more tests before the doctors can say anything about his chances, but I am not optimistic. Needless to say it was a huge shock to all of my family. My dad and I are very close despite the fact that we don't get a chance to talk much. I admit that I have been totally shattered by the news. Your analysis in it's own small way makes me feel a bit better. Thank you. Kerrie, I saw you had posted and was glad/excited and said to myself, "Hey look Kerrie is over on the Spikecentricity thread." Then I read your post and --well, I'm honored you shared with us but bummed by the news. I'm sorry for you and your Mom, as well as your Dad. Please update us when you know more and meanwhile I'll keep you all in my prayers. (How are the kiddies?) Sue
|
|