Forever Discussion

[Kerrie]

Spring, Sue and all the other S'Cunies who hae IMed me. Thank you so much for your support. I know I always say that I often think of the S'Cubies despite the fact that I don't get a chance to post much. It is this level of compassion and support that make the S'Cubie family so wonderful. When all else fails it helps me like nothing else to know that other S'Cubies have suffered/are suffering with similar problems and that people do care about my problems even amidst their own. Thank you.

[Spaced Out Looney]

LadyDi said:

Anya and Xander's discussion about the meaning/reason for sex is illuminating, but sex isn't just about making babies, anymore than it's just "smooshing". Sex is, or can/should be, a celebration of love between two people.
Gay men can't have babies, some women can't have babies, and some men are shooting blanks. Or, some couples simply choose not to have children. I think there's some short-sightedness expressed here, even tho' it's a nice sentiment.
I too am looking forward to your analysis of Intervention. It's one of my favorite s5 eps.

I was rewatching this episode and thinking about this comment. It occurred to me that while Xander/Anya as a heterosexual couple were talking about the possibility of "making life" in the sense that they could have kids when they were ready, Willow and Tara as a lesbian couple had a discussion about Willow writing down her memories of their time together so she won't forget them. Basically, they were also talking about "making life" together, not in the biological sense but no less meaningful. So I don't think that the writing was actually that short-sighted.

[Spaced Out Looney]

Spike is again providing safe escort through the darkness to Dawn. It’s really not that wise of him to indulge her, but he loves her, and he doesn’t have the ability here, to see the wrongness that Tara so easily sees. He can’t stand to see Dawn hurting, and he wants to keep her safe. So he’s there, and he’s willing to put himself in danger, and he’s willing, even, to let the Gora hurt him physically (it bites him) in order to help Dawn get to the life-giving Gora eggs. Very foreshadowy for Spike’s role with Buffy, in Season 6.

I'm struck by the similarities between Buffy's initial desire to find some magical way to heal Joyce in Shadow and Dawn's desire to resurrect Joyce here, and how Riley's logical attempt trying to dissuade Buffy fell on deaf ears ("That attitude's not helping"). Not sure what conclusion to draw really, except that both girls had to decide for themselves to give up their unwise quests.

[SpringSummers]

Spaced said:

I was rewatching this episode and thinking about this comment. It occurred to me that while Xander/Anya as a heterosexual couple were talking about the possibility of "making life" in the sense that they could have kids when they were ready, Willow and Tara as a lesbian couple had a discussion about Willow writing down her memories of their time together so she won't forget them. Basically, they were also talking about "making life" together, not in the biological sense but no less meaningful. So I don't think that the writing was actually that short-sighted.

Nice catch, SOL. I agree the Willow/Tara scene, with its talk of preserving their memories for posterity, is meant to parallel the idea of making a baby "for posterity." I did think the episode suggested there were several ways to . . . endure through the ages (passing on your genes being only one of them.)

[SpringSummers]

Spaced said:

I'm struck by the similarities between Buffy's initial desire to find some magical way to heal Joyce in Shadow and Dawn's desire to resurrect Joyce here, and how Riley's logical attempt trying to dissuade Buffy fell on deaf ears ("That attitude's not helping"). Not sure what conclusion to draw really, except that both girls had to decide for themselves to give up their unwise quests.

I always had this feeling, too, that Spike's willingness to help Dawn is partly due to his faith in her ultimate ability to make the right decision. I mean . . . I don't think he is aware of this consciously, but surely, she's pretty much goodness personified to him.

[Kerrie]

With all this talk of what constitutes forever I find that it is interesting that the immortals (i.e. vampires) live forever but have no off-spring. I know they sire other vampires and that this has sexual connetations, but they leave the demon in their victim, not part of their own DNA.

Another random, and probably wrong, thought but I always thought Spike's choice of flowers was interesting. I would have thought that he would have stolen a nice bunch, but he seemed to have picked his own and they looked so rootless and bedraggled and I always wondered whether they were supposed to symbolize Spike himself.

[SpringSummers]

Kerrie said:

With all this talk of what constitutes forever I find that it is interesting that the immortals (i.e. vampires) live forever but have no off-spring. I know they sire other vampires and that this has sexual connetations, but they leave the demon in their victim, not part of their own DNA.

Yes - that trade-off . . . personal immortality for "immortality of your line" seems to be common in fiction. I mean, beings who are themselves immortal being unable to have children.

Another random, and probably wrong, thought but I always thought Spike's choice of flowers was interesting. I would have thought that he would have stolen a nice bunch, but he seemed to have picked his own and they looked so rootless and bedraggled and I always wondered whether they were supposed to symbolize Spike himself.

I thought the straggly look of the flowers was deliberate as well . . . I saw it as speaking to Spike's sincerity, which is being questioned in the scene by Xander, and which the viewer would wonder about as well (since this happens so soon after Crush). The flowers aren't ostentatious, he seems to have picked them himself, he's not leaving a card, and then the way JM plays that scene - Spike's reactions . . . it all lends credence to Spike's claim that "it's about Joyce" because he "liked the lady."

And I do think flowers in general are used as symbol of mortality, of temporary, but stunning beauty that makes an impact, then quickly fades away.

[Cal]

Another excellent analysis, Spring. I just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed reading it. Your analyses (and the subsequent discussions) help keep the Buffyverse alive for me. I'm looking forward to reading your "Intervention" analysis (which is one of my favourite episodes). Thank you!

I'm missing Spike so much today. *sigh*

[SpringSummers]

cal said:

Another excellent analysis, Spring. I just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed reading it. Your analyses (and the subsequent discussions) help keep the Buffyverse alive for me. I'm looking forward to reading your "Intervention" analysis (which is one of my favourite episodes). Thank you!

I really want to get to that one - it's the usual real life stuff. Work, parenthood, etc.

I'm missing Spike so much today. *sigh*

He's over here at my house.

[Kerrie]

Hi everyone.

The good news is that the surgeon said that my Dad does not have bowel cancer.

The bad news was that he has cancer on his pancreas which is causing him so much pain. The cancer he does have is inoperable. The oncologist visits once a month from Brisbane (they see him Friday week) and the oncologist will be able to tell them more. If he needs chemo he will be able to have it at Maryborough (30 minutes away), but if he needs radio he will have to go to Brisbane(3.5 hourse drive away). My Dad is in a lot of pain, needs to sleep a lot and becomes breathless if he has to walk more than 50 metres, according to my mother. My Dad says that he is fine, but wants his will updated to allow for Queensland laws and is looking for a new whipper snipper because Mum can't use the one they have got. My Mum is really upset and scared. The rest of the family, including me, trust my mother and are likewise frightened and upset.

I am sorry to share such bad news. I am just really freaked out.

[Lola m]

Kerrie said:

Hi everyone.

The good news is that the surgeon said that my Dad does not have bowel cancer.

The bad news was that he has cancer on his pancreas which is causing him so much pain. The cancer he does have is inoperable. The oncologist visits once a month from Brisbane (they see him Friday week) and the oncologist will be able to tell them more. If he needs chemo he will be able to have it at Maryborough (30 minutes away), but if he needs radio he will have to go to Brisbane(3.5 hourse drive away). My Dad is in a lot of pain, needs to sleep a lot and becomes breathless if he has to walk more than 50 metres, according to my mother. My Dad says that he is fine, but wants his will updated to allow for Queensland laws and is looking for a new whipper snipper because Mum can't use the one they have got. My Mum is really upset and scared. The rest of the family, including me, trust my mother and are likewise frightened and upset.

I am sorry to share such bad news. I am just really freaked out.

We're always here for the sharing, Kerrie. And it's perfectly natural to be freaked out and scared. You've got all our support, you know. Come here for venting or hugs or whatever you need.

{{{{Kerrie}}}}

Lola

[SpringSummers]

Kerrie said:

Hi everyone.

The good news is that the surgeon said that my Dad does not have bowel cancer.

The bad news was that he has cancer on his pancreas which is causing him so much pain. The cancer he does have is inoperable. The oncologist visits once a month from Brisbane (they see him Friday week) and the oncologist will be able to tell them more. If he needs chemo he will be able to have it at Maryborough (30 minutes away), but if he needs radio he will have to go to Brisbane(3.5 hourse drive away). My Dad is in a lot of pain, needs to sleep a lot and becomes breathless if he has to walk more than 50 metres, according to my mother. My Dad says that he is fine, but wants his will updated to allow for Queensland laws and is looking for a new whipper snipper because Mum can't use the one they have got. My Mum is really upset and scared. The rest of the family, including me, trust my mother and are likewise frightened and upset.

I am sorry to share such bad news. I am just really freaked out.

Kerrie:

I am sorry you have such bad news, but I am glad you have shared it. I can understand that you would be very upset and frightened. All my love and thoughts and prayers are with you and yours.

[Onjel]

Kerrie said:

Hi everyone.

The good news is that the surgeon said that my Dad does not have bowel cancer.

The bad news was that he has cancer on his pancreas which is causing him so much pain. The cancer he does have is inoperable. The oncologist visits once a month from Brisbane (they see him Friday week) and the oncologist will be able to tell them more. If he needs chemo he will be able to have it at Maryborough (30 minutes away), but if he needs radio he will have to go to Brisbane(3.5 hourse drive away). My Dad is in a lot of pain, needs to sleep a lot and becomes breathless if he has to walk more than 50 metres, according to my mother. My Dad says that he is fine, but wants his will updated to allow for Queensland laws and is looking for a new whipper snipper because Mum can't use the one they have got. My Mum is really upset and scared. The rest of the family, including me, trust my mother and are likewise frightened and upset.

I am sorry to share such bad news. I am just really freaked out.

I am very sorry for your news. Not to be repeato girl, but it is very natural for you be freaked out and scared. Same goes for your mother and the rest of your family. My prayers are with you.

[Cal]

Kerrie said:

Hi everyone.

The good news is that the surgeon said that my Dad does not have bowel cancer.

The bad news was that he has cancer on his pancreas which is causing him so much pain. The cancer he does have is inoperable. The oncologist visits once a month from Brisbane (they see him Friday week) and the oncologist will be able to tell them more. If he needs chemo he will be able to have it at Maryborough (30 minutes away), but if he needs radio he will have to go to Brisbane(3.5 hourse drive away). My Dad is in a lot of pain, needs to sleep a lot and becomes breathless if he has to walk more than 50 metres, according to my mother. My Dad says that he is fine, but wants his will updated to allow for Queensland laws and is looking for a new whipper snipper because Mum can't use the one they have got. My Mum is really upset and scared. The rest of the family, including me, trust my mother and are likewise frightened and upset.

I am sorry to share such bad news. I am just really freaked out.

{{{Kerrie}}} My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

[Kerrie]

I am here to vent.

My parents have gone insane. My Dad saw the oncologist today and learned that he had at best 6 months to live. One of my Doctor friends tells me that once the cancer has spread from the pancreas, the life expectancy is 3 months, but another Doctor friend assures me that some oncologists are incurable optimists so the difference in prognosis is minor. My parents think that he has only six months. The oncologist did however give them some hope. My Dad is in a lot of pain, which he treats by taking Panadeine Forte which causes constipation. Consequently, according to them (i.e. my parents and the oncologist)he does not need any different pain relief - just more drugs for the constipation. However, and this is where the insanity kicks in, the oncologist was able to give them an unexpected ray of hope. The cancer is too far gone to allow chemo as a treatment option. However, my Dad is strong enough for him to undergo chemo as part of his pain relief strategy. Apparantly this works for 30% of all patients. My parents are excited by this and he starts chemo next week. I am so stupid that I do not understand this at all. A success rate of thirty per cent is not good given that my Dad is guaranteed to suffer all the normal side effects of chemo. If he is considering such a radical step it seems to me that he must be in more pain than he is telling the oncologist which suggests to me that he needs different drugs. The oncologist has not made a second, follow-up appointment.

I know the problem is denial: my parents can't rid themselves of the idea that chemo means prolonging my Dad's life. Ian, the kids and I are going to see my Dad next week. By all accounts he is going downhill very quickly. I suspect that he has less than 8 weeks left. I would not be surprised if he reaches the end before we return home from our trip on the 24th February. Hopefully, I will have resigned myself to my parent's right to live in denial before I get there and the temptation to talk them into reason will have vanished. Hoping that they will have independently reconsidered and decided against chemo would be foolish. On the way home from the oncologists appointment, my father informed my mother that they will have to grit their teeth. I will be trying to follow his advice and say nothing.

Thanks for reading. I know that I am ranting. Parents can be very difficult and frustrating. I do not want my Dad to have chemo. Bu then I do not want my Dad to die either so there are a whole lot of things that I need to resign myself to not getting.