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Post by Just Willow on Jan 4, 2005 13:56:15 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 4, 2005 15:47:54 GMT -5
Great review, Spring. Joyce's death and Buffy's death really do occur one right on top of the other, don't they, no more than a couple weeks or so; Joyce's death really is a large factor in Buffy's decision to jump into the portal. That longing look at her mom's grave really shows how much she doesn't want to move on and live in a world that doesn't have her mom in it. And it's all laid out here in this episode. Thanks.
I like what you said about Angel's appearance; I too noticed that while Hank was nowhere to be found, Angel did show up sort of fitting with the Daddy Angel vibe. And it is important to realize what's been going on with Angel on his own show at this point; he is providing Buffy comfort and on the surface this is just a nice sweet visit. But you gotta wonder when Angel says things like "I can stay as long as you want me" if he's not considering bailing on his gang and his own problems in LA and making a fresh start again. Considering how much in the dog house he is with his own people (I'm assuming that Forever and Disharmony take place around the same time since they were shown concurrently), I don't think they would be so down with Angel staying indefinitely with Buffy in Sunnydale. And Angel's gotta know that Buffy wouldn't be nearly so happy with him if she knew what he had been up to.
What is your opinion, Spring (or anyone), on Spike's attitude towards Dawn wanting to resurrect Joyce here and his attitude towards Buffy's resurrection at the beginning of season 6? I sort of think that he decides to help Dawn here for the same reason he did in Blood Ties, that she's determined so he may as well help her be safe, but he likes Joyce and Doc's suggesting that she might come back wrong doesn't really faze him here.
I like your explanations here, but these two little moments still don't sit right with me. I'd almost think "the guy playing dominos" comment would be some sort of reference to a play JM and Joel Grey did together or something, but I don't know. It all seems rather odd to me.
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Post by Pixi on Jan 4, 2005 15:56:19 GMT -5
Indeed another terrific review. I haven't the time unfortunately to reply in any kind of depth but I wanted to tell you how much I loved your analogy of the trees. As a former lurker while reading your reviews, over and over again I am impressed by your insightful observations. They floor me and make me want to go running home to watch the episode again. Thanks so much for writing this.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 4, 2005 17:42:29 GMT -5
Great review, Spring. Joyce's death and Buffy's death really do occur one right on top of the other, don't they, no more than a couple weeks or so; Joyce's death really is a large factor in Buffy's decision to jump into the portal. That longing look at her mom's grave really shows how much she doesn't want to move on and live in a world that doesn't have her mom in it. And it's all laid out here in this episode. Thanks. You're welcome! Definitely Joyce's death plays into Buffy's Season-ending decision to jump. I don't say that to take away from heroism of her jump - but it isn't coincidental that she is saying things about how she doesn't think she can handle the adult world, and that she says she doesn't want to live in the world, not long before she decides to take herself out of it (to save it, but for others, not for herself.) That's a legit interpretation, but myself, I saw it more as a kindness - I mean, Angel knew there was no way he could stay, and that Buffy would tell him to leave, so it costs him nothing, and it helps Buffy feel cared about, for him to volunteer to stay. Yes, but - Angel's there to provide comfort, and to try to be what Buffy wants/needs him to be. So that's what he does. It's easy because Buffy isn't going to be looking for that tail anyhow. I think there were some underlying mommy-issues stuff going on with Spike here. I mean - we don't know this yet, but now that we know his history with his own mom, it's not so hard to understand why he sympathizes with the Summers' sisters dealing with a possibly deathly ill mother, or why he can understand the desire to get mother back at all costs. He's also very familiar with how mummy can "come back wrong." But . . . I think it's more about just keeping Dawn safe and feeling that Dawn is bound and determined to do it . . . so he's going to do what he can to increase the odds that it will work out for her. On Season 6 - I can't say I really remember Spike expressing much agreement or disagreement with what Willow did . . . he may have, but I don't remember it. I know Willow didn't want him to know ahead of time, but my feeling on that was that was because she knew she couldn't control him - she couldn't be certain of his agreement and cooperation, not by any means. EDIT: It occurs to me that you are talking about Spike's "Magic has consequences, always!" warning to Xander and Anya, after Buffy is resurrected. I didn't think that came from a moral objection . . . but rather from his hurt and anger and general highly emotional state (from realizing he'd been left out by the Scoobies, and just from Buffy's return) and from the fact that he knows that , well, Magic has consequences. He doesn't have the sort of sympathy for the Scoobies he does for Dawn, in fact, he's really hurt and angry. So he lashes out. And he's also correctly deduced the power trip that Willow has begun. . . which Dawn was not on. Yes, I know what you mean about the dominos. I've always wondered if they might have been setting something up here, that they never followed through on . . . who knows. The whole "mistaken identity" thing plays in very well with the whole ep - Xander and Dawn have both earlier "mistaken Spike for someone who was just trying to shag Buffy." Now, Doc is literally mistakening him for someone else. But . . . it is kind of strange.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 4, 2005 17:43:34 GMT -5
Indeed another terrific review. I haven't the time unfortunately to reply in any kind of depth but I wanted to tell you how much I loved your analogy of the trees. As a former lurker while reading your reviews, over and over again I am impressed by your insightful observations. They floor me and make me want to go running home to watch the episode again. Thanks so much for writing this. You're welcome, Pixi. So glad you delurked. If you ever have the time and get inspired to share more of your thoughts, don't hesitate!
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 4, 2005 19:19:56 GMT -5
You're welcome! Definitely Joyce's death plays into Buffy's Season-ending decision to jump. I don't say that to take away from heroism of her jump - but it isn't coincidental that she is saying things about how she doesn't think she can handle the adult world, and that she says she doesn't want to live in the world, not long before she decides to take herself out of it (to save it, but for others, not for herself.) Most certainly the jump was heroic; I think it was both at the same time, layers upon layers. Again, I think it's both; knowing what's been happening on Angel just adds another layer to what he's saying. he's definitely sincere, selflessly loving, providing her comfort, being what she needs him to be and not burdening her with his problems, and yes he's in danger of losing his soul when he's near her so he could have just been saying that, but it does seem to me that the idea leaving the mess in LA and going back to Sunnydale and playing Buffy's white knight again is at least a little bit tempting to him or he wouldn't have suggested it. (his leaving their relationship where it was and Sunnydale after graduation for a fresh start in LA and offering to wear the amulet and possibly go down fighting with Buffy in Chosen essentially abandoning his LA gang again suggests a sort of pattern to me. Understandable, certainly, but I do see a troubling pattern) Oh, and I liked what you said about Spike's mommy-issues. I hadn't even thought about Spike's experience with his own mom and her coming back wrong. That's interesting and I can see that being a factor. Yeah, that's what I was getting at, Willow's refusal to tell him and Spike quite correctly deducing why. SPIKE: Willow knew there was a chance that she'd come back wrong. So wrong that you'd have ... that she would have to get rid of what came back. And I wouldn't let her. If any part of that was Buffy, I wouldn't let her. And that's why she shut me out.It's got nothing to do with morals since he doesn't have any except maybe on an intellectual level at this point (i.e. he knows what Buffy and the gang thinks is right and wrong), just about the pain of seeing a loved one come back wrong and what to do about it. Now his feelings for Joyce are obviously less intense but he did genuinely like her so I think he'd feel a little shaken up by the idea of her "wrong" even if it didn't change his mind about helping Dawn. So like, was he just not paying attention when Doc was talking about "things getting a little off" or was this like a learning experience when Dawn decided to not go through with it?
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 4, 2005 20:07:12 GMT -5
Most certainly the jump was heroic; I think it was both at the same time, layers upon layers. Again, I think it's both; knowing what's been happening on Angel just adds another layer to what he's saying. he's definitely sincere, selflessly loving, providing her comfort, being what she needs him to be and not burdening her with his problems, and yes he's in danger of losing his soul when he's near her so he could have just been saying that, but it does seem to me that the idea leaving the mess in LA and going back to Sunnydale and playing Buffy's white knight again is at least a little bit tempting to him or he wouldn't have suggested it. (his leaving their relationship where it was and Sunnydale after graduation for a fresh start in LA and offering to wear the amulet and possibly go down fighting with Buffy in Chosen essentially abandoning his LA gang again suggests a sort of pattern to me. Understandable, certainly, but I do see a troubling pattern) Agree on all this . . . and I noticed that too . . . the pattern of it, I mean. Hmmmm. interesting. My feeling was that he was helping Dawn to keep her safe and increase her chances of success . . . so he's going to be helping her, whether or not he's a bit wigged by the idea of Joyce coming back wrong or not. He knows it's not a particularly good idea; you can hear that in the way he talks to her about "zombie territory" and her "infamous book" right from the start. And also . . . he can see Dawn is determined, so he's basically got two choices - help Dawn, or let her do it alone. He goes for choice #1. Well, I guess he could try telling Buffy, as Tara does . . . but . . . the last time he saw Buffy, she was telling him to get lost at that party, for that whole really nasty "chaining her up" incident. And she's just lost her mom . . . I can see why he wouldn't opt for that one. Notice how he tells Xander, "I'm not going in," neglecting to mention that he CAN'T go in anymore, even if he wanted to . . . though he's surely aware of that. He knows he's totally lost the bit of Buffy's trust he had barely begun to gain, in Checkpoint and Blood Ties.
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Post by Karen on Jan 5, 2005 12:06:49 GMT -5
Excellent review, Spring! Thanks for pulling it all together so well. I had thought that the title "Forever" referred to the fact that nothing lasts forever. People die - leave. Love ends. But I like your idea better - The powerful nature of those connections, the enduring significance of our lives through the legacies we leave behind, is beautifully represented through the use of trees. Those connections do endure. That deep connection between Buffy and Angel will always be there - but the nature of it has changed over the years. I think she does see the "tail" underneath, tho. Just as Dawn saw the Doc's tail and chose to ignore it, Buffy takes comfort from Angel, but if he'd let her, I think she would chose to ignore his tail and the consequences. Maybe. There’s a power, greater than us in this world. Yep. We all realize this at one point or another and try to figure out what that means to our lives. Buffy - the Slayer - couldn't save her mom. She has power - but it has limits. It's something she accept eventually and let it be. I rewatched "Forever" the day before Vlad posted your review. That scene you mention where Buffy's face darkens as she stands at Joyce's graveside had especially struck me in watching it this time. I don't know if it was because it was so clear on the DVD or what, but I don't think I noticed it before. She did seem to age before our eyes. I also thought it foreshadowed the depth of her depression, too. Can't forget the spicy Spike stuff. The scene with the flowers and Willow/Xander - gosh, I'm getting teary-eyed just thinking about it. About "Peter and the Wolf". I'll have to reread the story, but I like your idea about Spike being the wolf that Buffy tames. Thanks so much, Spring.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 5, 2005 13:35:30 GMT -5
Excellent review, Spring! Thanks for pulling it all together so well. I had thought that the title "Forever" referred to the fact that nothing lasts forever. People die - leave. Love ends. But I like your idea better - The powerful nature of those connections, the enduring significance of our lives through the legacies we leave behind, is beautifully represented through the use of trees. Those connections do endure. That deep connection between Buffy and Angel will always be there - but the nature of it has changed over the years. Hmmmm. I'd say more the effects of a love connection last forever, than that any love connection lasts forever. That part . . . that fades, or people just plain die. But the good and the evil that men do lives after them, subtlely or unsubtley affecting the generations to come, indefinitely. Yes - I think there is a part of Buffy which does "see Angel's tail" in a way, that always has. But she has that part of herself very deeply buried. Like Dawn with Doc, she sees it but doesn't see it. She doesn't want to see it,and she's still not adult enough to face it and understand it - think what it means if she truly allows herself to see it, etc. Dawn doesn't want to give up on the idea of bringing her mom back (which is what she'd have to do if she really "saw" Doc's tail) and Buffy doesn't want to give up on the idea of her perfect love - both are related to growing up and letting yourself face adulthood and the pain that brings, along with the joy and growth it brings. You're very welcome!
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Post by LadyDi on Jan 7, 2005 21:32:39 GMT -5
Anya and Xander's discussion about the meaning/reason for sex is illuminating, but sex isn't just about making babies, anymore than it's just "smooshing". Sex is, or can/should be, a celebration of love between two people. Gay men can't have babies, some women can't have babies, and some men are shooting blanks. Or, some couples simply choose not to have children. I think there's some short-sightedness expressed here, even tho' it's a nice sentiment. I too am looking forward to your analysis of Intervention. It's one of my favorite s5 eps.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 8, 2005 9:12:42 GMT -5
Anya and Xander's discussion about the meaning/reason for sex is illuminating, but sex isn't just about making babies, anymore than it's just "smooshing". Sex is, or can/should be, a celebration of love between two people. Gay men can't have babies, some women can't have babies, and some men are shooting blanks. Or, some couples simply choose not to have children. I think there's some short-sightedness expressed here, even tho' it's a nice sentiment. Thanks for stopping by, Lady Di. My take: I liked Anya's speech and didn't think it expressed any shortsightedness. She was talking about the added "we can make babies" dimension to the sex she had with Xander - and saying that she understood the underlying biological purpose for the sex drive better now. She's not wrong about any of that, and pointing out that added dimension doesn't take away from the other dimensions of it. Whether you are gay or infertile or celibate or whatever, doesn't change the face that the biological purpose for the existence of the sex drive is procreation. The show is about the life cycle, hence the highlighting of that aspect and the dimension it adds, for Anya. Me, too. It is such a fun ep. Am hoping to finish - or at least make progress on it, this weekend.
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Post by Nickim on Jan 8, 2005 14:17:58 GMT -5
Thanks for another great review, Spring. I don't have much to add, except that I think Spike would have done anything Dawn asked simply because he loved her. His love for her was completely pure, not motivated by sexual desire or the sort of "conquest" he felt with Buffy. Dawn was "Cecily" all over again, someone he could be a "knight in shining armor" for. I don't think William's love for Cecily was sexually motivated, he wouldn't "sully" his love for her by thinking of her in a sexual way. Spike always acted annoyed when Dawn thought of him as "safe," but I think he was actually pleased and proud that she viewed him that way. The interaction of these two characters was one of the things I missed most in Season 6. I was very disappointed that their relationship wasn't healed in Season 7.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 8, 2005 18:10:34 GMT -5
Thanks for another great review, Spring. You're very welcome. And your feedback is much appreciated, even if it just to let me know you are reading and enjoying. Yes - Spike & Buffy were doing the obsessed love thing in Season 6, so I thought the (more or less) neglect of Dawn made sense. It fit with the whole mood everyone was in, including Spike. Season 7, though - I do wish they'd done more with so many of the central relationships. Season 7 really needed to be Season 8 - I mean we needed Season 7 to focus on the characters and rebuild the relationships, etc . . . but that luxury was not to be had.
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Post by LadyDi on Jan 8, 2005 22:47:15 GMT -5
Thanks for stopping by, Lady Di. My take: I liked Anya's speech and didn't think it expressed any shortsightedness. She was talking about the added "we can make babies" dimension to the sex she had with Xander - and saying that she understood the underlying biological purpose for the sex drive better now. She's not wrong about any of that, and pointing out that added dimension doesn't take away from the other dimensions of it. Whether you are gay or infertile or celibate or whatever, doesn't change the face that the biological purpose for the existence of the sex drive is procreation. The show is about the life cycle, hence the highlighting of that aspect and the dimension it adds, for Anya. Me, too. It is such a fun ep. Am hoping to finish - or at least make progress on it, this weekend. I don't think Anya was being short-sighted. But it was emphasized that neither Angel nor Spike could give Buffy babies. The implication seems to be there's no future in a relationship that wont result in babies.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 8, 2005 23:45:25 GMT -5
I don't think Anya was being short-sighted. But it was emphasized that neither Angel nor Spike could give Buffy babies. The implication seems to be there's no future in a relationship that wont result in babies. Oh - I guess that's so in a way. I mean . . . there's no "pass on the genes" future in a relationship that won't result in babies. But - it didn't seem to be about . . . particular relationships at all. It seemed to say that, in fact, ALL individual lives and relationships are fleeting. Everything must end, because we all die. But the legacies we leave behind are lasting . . . and I thought the ep, in different ways, addressed that in terms of both biology (if we procreate, we literally leave a part of ourselves behind) and in terms of what we give and teach to others. Joyce didn't leave JUST her genes behind, we see that. Long story short, I thought it was a balanced pic overall. I didn't think it meant to suggest, in any way, that relationships that can't result in babies can't be as meaningful. Not sure I'm totally getting your point, but . . . such are my thoughts on the matter . . . Have not been able to get much done on Intervention. CURSES! But hope to carve out some time tomorrow.
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