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Post by LadyDi on Jan 13, 2006 20:06:46 GMT -5
Honey, you yourself said once that Buffy's relationship w/Spike was primarily about her need to feel (IIRC), and Joss says it too in one of the featurettes on the s6 DVD (the roundtable). James was sitting right there. No wonder he didn't believe Buffy loved Spike. I know you give less credence to opinions other than Joss', but James opinions influenced the way he played his character. Whatever Joss' intent, it played on screen as tho' Spike didn't believe Buffy. Joss said that overall, he told the story he wanted to tell. Which is fine, but what about all the others involved in the telling? For a guy who makes his living as a writer, I think he needs to work on his communication skills. Willow had control issues, no question, but she was using magic for the wrong reasons. There's nothing inherently Light or Dark about magic. Magic just is. Willow's addiction to power/control would have made a better focus (IMO). In When She Was Bad Buffy did the sexy dance w/Xander, toying with him to make Angel jealous. She was having some serious issues from dying at the hands of the Master. Once she mashed the Master, she was pretty much over it. She just seemed a lot more resislient pre s6. Granted, being torn out of Heaven isn't something you just bounce back from, but for pity's sake! Why do you think Giles laughed when Buffy gave him the run down? Because it was absurd! I wonder sometimes just how much sympathy we were supposed to have for them in s6, when it was their "Oh, grow up!" season. They were all so wrapped up in their own problems (except Spike, who was mostly wrapped up in Buffy's probs), they couldn't see much else. As for DP...a giant penis monster that sprays out a paralyzing ejaculate? Puh-lease. The word 'subtle' doesn't exactly leap to mind. You wanna like s6, that's your perogative. But you were wondering why others didn't like it. So I thought I'd put my two cents in. Put your two cents in anytime you like. If you'd rather I didn't respond, I will not. I disagree with your view of this, but I definitely will not respond, if I'm going to get my opposing opinion ridiculed with "honeys" and "puh-lease" and the like. Looks like I (inadvertently) hit a nerve. Sorry. I thought we were two reasonable adults having a simple disagreement. I intended no ridicule (well, I reserve the right to ridicule Joss/ME, or giant penis monsters at the very least).
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Post by Lola m on Jan 13, 2006 20:56:51 GMT -5
Thought I'd step in with a brief mention of how it's gonna be hard to talk about season 6. With its complexity and darkness and the intense way that almost all fans feel about it - it's just gonna be hard! Emotions run high - and we haven't even gotten to Seeing Red yet! It's not just a matter of fans who love the season (or aspects of it) and fans who dislike the season (or aspects of it), although that's a big potential tension. But there's also a lot of passion and varying opinions even within each group. That's kind of inevitable when talking about truly daring writing, IMHO. I mean, Joss' worlds always brings out the passion in people - why else would we all still be talking about his shows? But the emotion brought out by a discussion of The Body, for example, is not gonna be as potentially . . . . wild and woolly . . . as what season 6 can bring up. So, also IMHO, taking a breath and knowing when to just step back and agree to disagree is crucial to getting through a discussion of this season. Even more so than in any other conversation. Which is just me sticking my big nose in here, but hey, that's me. OK - now I'll back out of the room slowly. ;D
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 13, 2006 21:00:13 GMT -5
Thought I'd step in with a brief mention of how it's gonna be hard to talk about season 6. With its complexity and darkness and the intense way that almost all fans feel about it - it's just gonna be hard! Emotions run high - and we haven't even gotten to Seeing Red yet! It's not just a matter of fans who love the season (or aspects of it) and fans who dislike the season (or aspects of it), although that's a big potential tension. But there's also a lot of passion and varying opinions even within each group. That's kind of inevitable when talking about truly daring writing, IMHO. I mean, Joss' worlds always brings out the passion in people - why else would we all still be talking about his shows? But the emotion brought out by a discussion of The Body, for example, is not gonna be as potentially . . . . wild and woolly . . . as what season 6 can bring up. So, also IMHO, taking a breath and knowing when to just step back and agree to disagree is crucial to getting through a discussion of this season. Even more so than in any other conversation. Which is just me sticking my big nose in here, but hey, that's me. OK - now I'll back out of the room slowly. ;D #metoo# Thank you, Lola. This is better than anything I could have said.
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Post by Queen E on Jan 13, 2006 21:22:24 GMT -5
Thought I'd step in with a brief mention of how it's gonna be hard to talk about season 6. With its complexity and darkness and the intense way that almost all fans feel about it - it's just gonna be hard! Emotions run high - and we haven't even gotten to Seeing Red yet! It's not just a matter of fans who love the season (or aspects of it) and fans who dislike the season (or aspects of it), although that's a big potential tension. But there's also a lot of passion and varying opinions even within each group. That's kind of inevitable when talking about truly daring writing, IMHO. I mean, Joss' worlds always brings out the passion in people - why else would we all still be talking about his shows? But the emotion brought out by a discussion of The Body, for example, is not gonna be as potentially . . . . wild and woolly . . . as what season 6 can bring up. So, also IMHO, taking a breath and knowing when to just step back and agree to disagree is crucial to getting through a discussion of this season. Even more so than in any other conversation. Which is just me sticking my big nose in here, but hey, that's me. OK - now I'll back out of the room slowly. ;D Wordy McWord. The writer brings one thing to the table; the actor brings something else. Which is more valid is anyone's guess. That being said, tone is going to be extremely important as the discussion moves deeper into Season 6. I have sometimes made the mistake of arguing a point to death on the board, because I wanted to "win." That never happens, but the person involved feels beaten down and just capitulates so that the argument will be over. Hence our rule against "converting" others. We all have a variety of opinions, but we all need to remember that they are just that...our opinions and interpretations of these stories and what they mean. Just a reminder from your friendly neighborhood technopagan to no one and everyone. #bighug#
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Post by Onjel on Jan 13, 2006 21:24:10 GMT -5
Thought I'd step in with a brief mention of how it's gonna be hard to talk about season 6. With its complexity and darkness and the intense way that almost all fans feel about it - it's just gonna be hard! Emotions run high - and we haven't even gotten to Seeing Red yet! It's not just a matter of fans who love the season (or aspects of it) and fans who dislike the season (or aspects of it), although that's a big potential tension. But there's also a lot of passion and varying opinions even within each group. That's kind of inevitable when talking about truly daring writing, IMHO. I mean, Joss' worlds always brings out the passion in people - why else would we all still be talking about his shows? But the emotion brought out by a discussion of The Body, for example, is not gonna be as potentially . . . . wild and woolly . . . as what season 6 can bring up. So, also IMHO, taking a breath and knowing when to just step back and agree to disagree is crucial to getting through a discussion of this season. Even more so than in any other conversation. Which is just me sticking my big nose in here, but hey, that's me. OK - now I'll back out of the room slowly. ;D Lola? You totally rock my world, baby! I have been debating whether or not to open my big hands and type something here. I love the character Spike. I love the character Buffy. As Spring knows, I love Spike and Buffy together, and would have loved to see them together in an adult relationship. But, that is my little fantasy and such a scenario was not appropriate for the points in their lives (or unlives and the case may be) where they were in S6. Neither one of them was ready for a healthy, adult relationship. And had they been? Well of what interest would that be in the long run? I love S6 with a deep abiding love, even if it is the most painful season to watch. It touches emotions that are deep inside, and for that, it is truly a priceless work of art. People become interested/obsessed/devoted to dramatic television programs because of the drama inherent in conflict and adversity. In the case of BtVS, drama was expertly coupled with humor and action and the combination of the three has yet to be matched IMO. That being said, Spuffy ever after does not have the necessary ingredients for good drama. Where's the conflict? Where's the adversity? Buffy spent 7 years dealing with various conflict and adversity, from sources outside her family and friends and within. If everyone sat there and played happy families what would be the draw? We'd likely be very bored. Finally, the story that was told was not my story. It was the story of the creators of BtVS and its writers and as such, it was their perogative to tell the story and make whatever metaphorical points they wanted to make, in whatever way they wanted to do so. The audience can like it or not as they see fit, and if they do not like it they have a choice whether or not to watch it. Whatever our collective or individual feelings are about S6, it's important to remember that we are discussing someone else's work and we may not be privy to all of their thoughts and motivations. All opinions are worth hearing and open discussion is what we are here for. As Lola said, emotions are likely to run high, but we can do this. Also backing slowly out of the room, now.
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Post by Michelle on Jan 15, 2006 15:08:43 GMT -5
Put your two cents in anytime you like. If you'd rather I didn't respond, I will not. I disagree with your view of this, but I definitely will not respond, if I'm going to get my opposing opinion ridiculed with "honeys" and "puh-lease" and the like. Looks like I (inadvertently) hit a nerve. Sorry. I thought we were two reasonable adults having a simple disagreement. I intended no ridicule (well, I reserve the right to ridicule Joss/ME, or giant penis monsters at the very least). I can't speak for Spring, of course, but you may have hit a nerve because instead of just giving your opinion of why Buffy chose to have a relationship with Spike, you went off on a mini-rant about the entire season. That seemed unnecessary, in my opinion. I actually agree with some of your points. The penis monster in Doublemeat Palace was pretty lame! (And a re-hash of the penis monster in Season 2's Reptile Boy.) Spring also mentioned in her analysis of Bargaining Part 1 that she felt there is some not-so-good mixed in with the greatness that is Season 6, so you're not really saying anything that we don't already know. Season 5 and 6 vie for my favorite season of BTVS. Depending on my mood, it can go either way. But Season 5 was filled with many flaws as well! For example: at the beginning of the season, the Key could be made into anything, like rock or a chair, but by the end of the season, Glory's ritual required blood to open the door to her dimension. To that, I say: huh? And yet with all it's flaws, that season never seems to incite the friction among fans that Season 6 does. So, I have to think that it's something else that really gets in people's craw. What that might be, I won't go into, but I will say that I'm really looking forward to reading more of Spring's analyses. After I read them, I always appreciate the talent and effort of Joss, the writers, directors and actors just that much more. And I REALLY appreciate what Spring does for us, the fans of the show.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 15, 2006 17:57:39 GMT -5
Looks like I (inadvertently) hit a nerve. Sorry. I thought we were two reasonable adults having a simple disagreement. I intended no ridicule (well, I reserve the right to ridicule Joss/ME, or giant penis monsters at the very least). I can't speak for Spring, of course, but you may have hit a nerve because instead of just giving your opinion of why Buffy chose to have a relationship with Spike, you went off on a mini-rant about the entire season. That seemed unnecessary, in my opinion. I actually agree with some of your points. The penis monster in Doublemeat Palace was pretty lame! (And a re-hash of the penis monster in Season 2's Reptile Boy.) Spring also mentioned in her analysis of Bargaining Part 1 that she felt there is some not-so-good mixed in with the greatness that is Season 6, so you're not really saying anything that we don't already know. Season 5 and 6 vie for my favorite season of BTVS. Depending on my mood, it can go either way. But Season 5 was filled with many flaws as well! For example: at the beginning of the season, the Key could be made into anything, like rock or a chair, but by the end of the season, Glory's ritual required blood to open the door to her dimension. To that, I say: huh? And yet with all it's flaws, that season never seems to incite the friction among fans that Season 6 does. So, I have to think that it's something else that really gets in people's craw. What that might be, I won't go into, but I will say that I'm really looking forward to reading more of Spring's analyses. After I read them, I always appreciate the talent and effort of Joss, the writers, directors and actors just that much more. And I REALLY appreciate what Spring does for us, the fans of the show. If not wanting to be insulted constitutes "having a nerve hit," then I guess it did hit a nerve. But really, my feeling is that nobody hit any nerves. I don't mind anyone disagreeing with any of my opinions. I've got no problem with "I think your opinion is wrong." I do have a problem with "I think your opinion is ridiculous." So, all I'd ask, for anyone who posts in this thread, is to avoid wording that doesn't just suggest the other person is wrong, but goes beyond that into suggesting the other person hasn't got the sense God gave a goose.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 15, 2006 18:16:37 GMT -5
Thought I'd step in with a brief mention of how it's gonna be hard to talk about season 6. With its complexity and darkness and the intense way that almost all fans feel about it - it's just gonna be hard! Emotions run high - and we haven't even gotten to Seeing Red yet! It's not just a matter of fans who love the season (or aspects of it) and fans who dislike the season (or aspects of it), although that's a big potential tension. But there's also a lot of passion and varying opinions even within each group. That's kind of inevitable when talking about truly daring writing, IMHO. I mean, Joss' worlds always brings out the passion in people - why else would we all still be talking about his shows? But the emotion brought out by a discussion of The Body, for example, is not gonna be as potentially . . . . wild and woolly . . . as what season 6 can bring up. So, also IMHO, taking a breath and knowing when to just step back and agree to disagree is crucial to getting through a discussion of this season. Even more so than in any other conversation. Which is just me sticking my big nose in here, but hey, that's me. OK - now I'll back out of the room slowly. ;D Wordy McWord. The writer brings one thing to the table; the actor brings something else. Which is more valid is anyone's guess. That being said, tone is going to be extremely important as the discussion moves deeper into Season 6. I have sometimes made the mistake of arguing a point to death on the board, because I wanted to "win." That never happens, but the person involved feels beaten down and just capitulates so that the argument will be over. Hence our rule against "converting" others. We all have a variety of opinions, but we all need to remember that they are just that...our opinions and interpretations of these stories and what they mean. Just a reminder from your friendly neighborhood technopagan to no one and everyone. Really, I have no problem with any discussion, about any point, going on for as long as any two or more people want to keep it going. But as was said, tone is important. Please always feel free to agree or disagree with anything written in the analyses or on the thread. Some people feel insulted and beaten down if you disagree with them, even mildly. Some never feel upset, no matter how often, or how strongly, you disagree with them. So you can't, and I don't think you should, walk on eggs. But when you're suggesting that the other person is wrong, do your best not to be suggesting that they are also being stupid and/or ridiculuous, etc. We've had this come up on the main thread before on all sorts of topics. I never have any problem with someone telling someone else, "I think you're wrong, and here's why I think you're wrong, and here's some back up for my opinion." I do have a problem with wording that says right out, or suggests, that the other person is not only wrong, but idiotic. Thanks to everyone who chimed in.
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Post by intospike on Jan 16, 2006 15:44:13 GMT -5
Thanks Spring for starting your analysis on Season 6. Season 6 was the reason I went back to Buffy the Vampire Slayer series. I watched the show on and off over the years but it was Season 6's serious story lines that got to me. It was not an easy show to watch but it was the show to watch. I was impressed (still am) how willing and able the writers/actors were in tackling difficult themes. I bought the entire 7 seasons of Buffy DVDs so that I could really enjoy the growth of each of the characters. (aside from the fact that I can now freeze the naked Spike frames and drool over that dead-ly body .) Thanks for your analysis and I look forward to Dead Thing (a very difficult episode to digest but also my favorite episode)
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 16, 2006 16:20:50 GMT -5
Thanks Spring for starting your analysis on Season 6. Season 6 was the reason I went back to Buffy the Vampire Slayer series. I watched the show on and off over the years but it was Season 6's serious story lines that got to me. It was not an easy show to watch but it was the show to watch. I was impressed (still am) how willing and able the writers/actors were in tackling difficult themes. I bought the entire 7 seasons of Buffy DVDs so that I could really enjoy the growth of each of the characters. (aside from the fact that I can now freeze the naked Spike frames and drool over that dead-ly body .) Thanks for your analysis and I look forward to Dead Thing (a very difficult episode to digest but also my favorite episode) Hello, intospike!I love hearing from readers. It really does help keep me going. I have much the same feeling about BtVS as you do - Season 6 is when it really grabbed me. And yes - Spike! Naked Spike! Am trying to finish Bargaining 2 today or later this week. I want to keep the ball rolling here. I am looking forward to Dead Things also, though the way I try to do this, is to take it "one DVD at a time." I tell myself, "OK, finish up this DVD," then on to the next one. It helps me to get those minor feelings of accomplishment and forward movement. Ideally, I'd like to do EVERY BtVS ep, but that seems so huge! Thanks again for your nice feedback. Please stop by this thread or any other on our site, anytime.
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Post by Sharky on Jan 16, 2006 16:37:19 GMT -5
Could be interesting.
Season 6 gave me my favorite episode of television in almost 50 years of life, the glory that is "Once More With Feeling."
Who else but Joss and his minions have ever dealt with the idea that bringing someone back from the dead might be the worst thing that could have happened from the perspective of the resurrected? The Scoobies couldn't conceive of "Happy Ever(lastingly) After" as an ending for Buffy, so they ripped her out of heaven.
Were there things I didn't like? Sure. For me, the loss of the high school setting at the end of Season 3 left Mutant Enemy adrift. I don't think they ever found their way back from that loss. There's plenty in S4 - S7 that I liked, many of the episodes still shine brighter than anything else on TV.
My biggest gripe with Season 6 is my biggest thematic gripe with Joss. I wanted, deeply, for Spike to complete his journey without a soul. I wanted him to rise above the need for the thing. But, Joss had his own dogma and in it the soul was essential. And, the Buffyverse (as much as we play in it) remains the legal and artistic property of Mr. Whedon, so he gets to write the canon. That's as it should be.
I hope we can discuss the themes of 6 without anyone getting terribly upset. If anyone can navigate this minefield, it's Spring, to whom I say, "Batter up!"
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 17, 2006 8:28:05 GMT -5
Could be interesting. Season 6 gave me my favorite episode of television in almost 50 years of life, the glory that is "Once More With Feeling." Who else but Joss and his minions have ever dealt with the idea that bringing someone back from the dead might be the worst thing that could have happened from the perspective of the resurrected? The Scoobies couldn't conceive of "Happy Ever(lastingly) After" as an ending for Buffy, so they ripped her out of heaven. Were there things I didn't like? Sure. For me, the loss of the high school setting at the end of Season 3 left Mutant Enemy adrift. I don't think they ever found their way back from that loss. There's plenty in S4 - S7 that I liked, many of the episodes still shine brighter than anything else on TV. My biggest gripe with Season 6 is my biggest thematic gripe with Joss. I wanted, deeply, for Spike to complete his journey without a soul. I wanted him to rise above the need for the thing. But, Joss had his own dogma and in it the soul was essential. And, the Buffyverse (as much as we play in it) remains the legal and artistic property of Mr. Whedon, so he gets to write the canon. That's as it should be. I hope we can discuss the themes of 6 without anyone getting terribly upset. If anyone can navigate this minefield, it's Spring, to whom I say, "Batter up!" People have lots of different opinions about S6 and BtVS in general. I thought BtVS "found itself" rather than "went adrift" after the HS part, and I would never have wanted to see Spike complete his journey without his soul. But I think your opinion, Sharky (and ones like it) are perfectly legit - and the expression of them is welcome here. As long as we all keep a respectful tone, we'll navigate the mine field just fine - i.e., keep the comments confined to the discussion . . . don't wander off into giving opinions on the other person's sanity, education, intelligence, insightfulness, character, etc. One thing I can say is that I think I'm in the best place I can be, to try to manage this: The S3. OK - I'm picking up my bat as we speak. (Did not finish Bargaining Part 2 but progress was made. I do believe I can have it done later this week or this weekend.)
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Post by rosslyn on Jan 17, 2006 20:40:13 GMT -5
"My biggest gripe with Season 6 is my biggest thematic gripe with Joss. I wanted, deeply, for Spike to complete his journey without a soul. I wanted him to rise above the need for the thing. But, Joss had his own dogma and in it the soul was essential. And, the Buffyverse (as much as we play in it) remains the legal and artistic property of Mr. Whedon, so he gets to write the canon. That's as it should be."
Hi Sharkey - Agree that it would have been hard to get around the soul-having bit, what with all that had been laid down in the past. Personally, I thought that it was enough that Spike had long been demonstrated to have a surprising amount of humanity for a vampire - capable of deep love, reasonable and humorous. Also, I am an Angel fan - more of Angelus and late Angel than early Angel - and I couldn't have supported a mechanism that would have made him seem inferior to Spike, i.e. Spike doesn't need a soul to be good but Angel does.
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Post by LadyDi on Jan 18, 2006 10:30:56 GMT -5
Wordy McWord. The writer brings one thing to the table; the actor brings something else. Which is more valid is anyone's guess. That being said, tone is going to be extremely important as the discussion moves deeper into Season 6. I have sometimes made the mistake of arguing a point to death on the board, because I wanted to "win." That never happens, but the person involved feels beaten down and just capitulates so that the argument will be over. Hence our rule against "converting" others. We all have a variety of opinions, but we all need to remember that they are just that...our opinions and interpretations of these stories and what they mean. Just a reminder from your friendly neighborhood technopagan to no one and everyone. Really, I have no problem with any discussion, about any point, going on for as long as any two or more people want to keep it going. But as was said, tone is important. Please always feel free to agree or disagree with anything written in the analyses or on the thread. Some people feel insulted and beaten down if you disagree with them, even mildly. Some never feel upset, no matter how often, or how strongly, you disagree with them. So you can't, and I don't think you should, walk on eggs. But when you're suggesting that the other person is wrong, do your best not to be suggesting that they are also being stupid and/or ridiculuous, etc. We've had this come up on the main thread before on all sorts of topics. I never have any problem with someone telling someone else, "I think you're wrong, and here's why I think you're wrong, and here's some back up for my opinion." I do have a problem with wording that says right out, or suggests, that the other person is not only wrong, but idiotic. Thanks to everyone who chimed in. But here's the thing...I never intended to suggest that you're an idiot. I intended to suggest that the giant penis monster was idiotic. I chose my words incautiously. Imagine how surprised I was by your accusatory tone in response. No offense was meant. I would think by now you realize that I value your opinion. How many times have I mentioned it was your analyses that drew me to the S3 in the first place? Why do you think I sent you my essay before sending it to Vlad for posting? Would I keep reading and responding if I thought it was a waste of time a/o unworthy of my attention? Thank you, Lola (and Queen E, too) for blessed are the peacemakers.
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Post by LadyDi on Jan 18, 2006 10:50:11 GMT -5
Looks like I (inadvertently) hit a nerve. Sorry. I thought we were two reasonable adults having a simple disagreement. I intended no ridicule (well, I reserve the right to ridicule Joss/ME, or giant penis monsters at the very least). I can't speak for Spring, of course, but you may have hit a nerve because instead of just giving your opinion of why Buffy chose to have a relationship with Spike, you went off on a mini-rant about the entire season. That seemed unnecessary, in my opinion. I actually agree with some of your points. The penis monster in Doublemeat Palace was pretty lame! (And a re-hash of the penis monster in Season 2's Reptile Boy.) Spring also mentioned in her analysis of Bargaining Part 1 that she felt there is some not-so-good mixed in with the greatness that is Season 6, so you're not really saying anything that we don't already know. Season 5 and 6 vie for my favorite season of BTVS. Depending on my mood, it can go either way. But Season 5 was filled with many flaws as well! For example: at the beginning of the season, the Key could be made into anything, like rock or a chair, but by the end of the season, Glory's ritual required blood to open the door to her dimension. To that, I say: huh? And yet with all it's flaws, that season never seems to incite the friction among fans that Season 6 does. So, I have to think that it's something else that really gets in people's craw. What that might be, I won't go into, but I will say that I'm really looking forward to reading more of Spring's analyses. After I read them, I always appreciate the talent and effort of Joss, the writers, directors and actors just that much more. And I REALLY appreciate what Spring does for us, the fans of the show. You're right, I did. This wasn't really the right place to post something potentially explosive (cuz it blew up in my face ). Perhaps we need a separate thread to discuss the season(s) overall? I dunno. I have other thoughts on s6 in general and s7. Where else would they have an appropriate forum?
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