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Post by Rob on Jan 21, 2006 20:47:12 GMT -5
FX used to have people voting on favorite shows for their Buffy marathons, and I detected no particular bias for a particular Season, or even for "the early Seasons." Informal polls I've seen on websites are all over the place. So, all I know is: I loved Season 6! And I am not at all alone in that. First of all, it was great to see your analyses again, Spring. I always look at things in a different way after having read your thoughts. My feelings about Season 6 are contradictory. While I enjoyed the resolutions toward the end of the year (I think every characters journey moved in a logical and satisfying direction, if not an altogether happy one), I didn't enjoy a lot of what it took to arrive at the big finish. That's probably my fault, more than Joss's...I guess I have limited tolerance when it comes to watching characters I love simultaneously spiral toward emotional ruin. Which isn't to say events weren't believable or real within the context of the show. In fact, perhaps things were a bit TOO real...which is why I tend to blame myself for my negative feelings. With the passage of time, I can now say I appreciate the darker elements of Season 6 far more than I did when the episodes first aired. I still maintain that the overall quality of certain episodes didn't hold up to their usual standard; "Doublemeat Palace" has been called the worst episode of BTVS ever in many circles, and I wouldn't strenuously argue the point. That being said, the complex relationships of Buffy/Spike, Willow/Tara and Xander/Anya are all brilliantly detailed. All three main characters weren't ready to be in mature relationships yet...yet all three had varying circumstances. Not that they mattered anyway. The whole point of Season 6, in my view, is this: if you don't feel comfortable with yourself, you'll find a way to screw everything up. The rest is just details.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 22, 2006 9:00:30 GMT -5
FX used to have people voting on favorite shows for their Buffy marathons, and I detected no particular bias for a particular Season, or even for "the early Seasons." Informal polls I've seen on websites are all over the place. So, all I know is: I loved Season 6! And I am not at all alone in that. First of all, it was great to see your analyses again, Spring. I always look at things in a different way after having read your thoughts. Thanks, Rob. I love it when you stop in on this board. Well - to me it seems there is no blame to be handed out to anybody - Joss, or you. There is nothing wrong with the reaction you had. It's kinda like if I didn't like . . . chocolate, say. That's not Hershey's "fault" and it's not my "fault." It just is. It's up to me to decide if I want to try to acquire a taste for chocolate, because others seem to like it so much - which I may or may not be able to do. Or if it doesn't seem worth the effort, or my aversion is just too strong (maybe I'm allergic to chocolate even), then I'll just stick to my PayDay bars. And that's OK too. So - no blame to pass around, in my book. This is a very subjective thing; I think "Doublemeat Palace" would make most people's "10 worst list" but if it would be LAST, after other fan "least favorites" (not all of which I agree with) like "Bad Eggs," "Go Fish," "Beer Bad," "Dead Man's Party," "Where the Wild Things Are," etc . . . I don't know. When it comes to the "stinkeroo list," I don't know that it would be heavier in later season eps. I believe that's what you call hitting the nail on the head.
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Post by Lola m on Jan 22, 2006 21:32:40 GMT -5
FX used to have people voting on favorite shows for their Buffy marathons, and I detected no particular bias for a particular Season, or even for "the early Seasons." Informal polls I've seen on websites are all over the place. So, all I know is: I loved Season 6! And I am not at all alone in that. First of all, it was great to see your analyses again, Spring. I always look at things in a different way after having read your thoughts. My feelings about Season 6 are contradictory. While I enjoyed the resolutions toward the end of the year (I think every characters journey moved in a logical and satisfying direction, if not an altogether happy one), I didn't enjoy a lot of what it took to arrive at the big finish. That's probably my fault, more than Joss's...I guess I have limited tolerance when it comes to watching characters I love simultaneously spiral toward emotional ruin. Which isn't to say events weren't believable or real within the context of the show. In fact, perhaps things were a bit TOO real...which is why I tend to blame myself for my negative feelings. With the passage of time, I can now say I appreciate the darker elements of Season 6 far more than I did when the episodes first aired. I still maintain that the overall quality of certain episodes didn't hold up to their usual standard; "Doublemeat Palace" has been called the worst episode of BTVS ever in many circles, and I wouldn't strenuously argue the point. That being said, the complex relationships of Buffy/Spike, Willow/Tara and Xander/Anya are all brilliantly detailed. All three main characters weren't ready to be in mature relationships yet...yet all three had varying circumstances. Not that they mattered anyway. The whole point of Season 6, in my view, is this: if you don't feel comfortable with yourself, you'll find a way to screw everything up. The rest is just details. Oddly enough, it's the emotional agony that makes me love season 6 so much. I love the angst and the very real pain. I mean, I love all the lighthearted and sunny and funny and lovely moments of this season (as well as the others). But the way season 6 doesn't pull back from the hard stuff, takes us right down in it and through to the other side - a not perfect happy side, but not pure despair either - really connects with me personally. And I add my appreciation to Spring's for your ending paragraph.
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Post by rosslyn on Jan 30, 2006 14:45:21 GMT -5
I have much more appreciation for the value of S6 - a few years on - than I did at the time. As noted above, the angst and the pain was very well done. For that matter, when I think of how much back and forthing, push and pulling there is between good and evil over the years involving those of "demonic" heritage (Spike, Angel, Anya, Darla, even Buffy), I wonder know why Buffy/Spike could not have been a true "go" during Season 6 and beyond. Dealing with the hazards of such friends/comrades became almost second nature for the Scoobies over the years. In "Get it Done" (I believe), it was revealed that the slayers had a demonic origin, thus making vampires' own origins more common and less horrific. More importantly, once Spike stopped doing evil - for whatever reason - why was he not commonly regarded as a suitable boyfriend for the slayer? Being souled was just the icing on the cake, as he had long since proven his love and steadfast devotion to her. Who could prove to be a better comrade in arms and extend the slayer's normally short lifespan than him? It became clear to us that Buffy couldn't take seriously a bf who was not superpowered; vampires just happened to be the most human of the lot for her to select from. Why not boldly present Buffy/Spike as such in S5-7 and not (as they did) as something shameful (yet titillating) to be presented tentatively before the audience and then just as suddenly yanked shamefacedly away?
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Post by Michelle on Jan 30, 2006 16:48:07 GMT -5
More importantly, once Spike stopped doing evil - for whatever reason - why was he not commonly regarded as a suitable boyfriend for the slayer? Being souled was just the icing on the cake, as he had long since proven his love and steadfast devotion to her. Who could prove to be a better comrade in arms and extend the slayer's normally short lifespan than him? It became clear to us that Buffy couldn't take seriously a bf who was not superpowered; vampires just happened to be the most human of the lot for her to select from. Why not boldly present Buffy/Spike as such in S5-7 and not (as they did) as something shameful (yet titillating) to be presented tentatively before the audience and then just as suddenly yanked shamefacedly away? Excellent questions rosslyn!!! I am in total agreement with your thoughts on this. I wish I had something more intelligent to add, but at the moment I don't. Glad you've joined the discussion.
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Post by Lynn on Jan 31, 2006 12:19:54 GMT -5
I think the very worst episode was the dumb one about MOO but Doublemeat was hard to watch, that is for sure. I agree that Spike is so obviously the best partner for Buffy and the pitiful efforts to make it "morally wrong" were a mistep and unbelieveable within the context of the story. Spring I am so happy you are back with these analysises.I am travelling and looking forward to rewatching this episode with you at my side.
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Post by fish1941 on Jan 31, 2006 14:28:41 GMT -5
I loved it. Which is probably why I prefer the show's later years over the earlier years.
Both Buffy and Spike had to grow up in a way that allowed Buffy to learn to shed her black-white mentality when it came to good and evil . . . and romance. And Spike had to learn to be his own man. Perhaps both had emerged the stronger by late Season 7 for having to go through so much. Besides, I do believe that by late S7, their relationship was no longer portrayed as something shameful, yet titillating.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 31, 2006 14:38:22 GMT -5
I loved it. Which is probably why I prefer the show's later years over the earlier years. Both Buffy and Spike had to grow up in a way that allowed Buffy to learn to shed her black-white mentality when it came to good and evil . . . and romance. And Spike had to learn to be his own man. Perhaps both had emerged the stronger by late Season 7 for having to go through so much. Besides, I do believe that by late S7, their relationship was no longer portrayed as something shameful, yet titillating. That's how I see it too. Season 6 Buffy & Spike - neither one was ready for a true, strong, adult, loving, committed relationship, for various reasons. Buffy was very right to break up with him, for both their sakes. But by Season 7, as you say, their relationship was being portrayed as something that was growing and changing for the better every day, and something that had proven very much a positive for both. I loved both Seasons; I loved how it ended. Well - I'm getting way ahead of myself! Thanks to all who have stopped in and aired their opinions here! Rosslyn, Lynn, Fotada, fish1941! I am very much enjoying reading the comments, and I really hope to have the next analysis out this weekend. Have had two very busy weekends in a row, but so far, a light one coming up!
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Post by LadyDi on Feb 1, 2006 1:45:48 GMT -5
In terms of Buffy's state of mind being akin to clinical depression, she was in no shape to have a healthy relationship with anyone. OTOH, their relationship didn't seem so unhealthy during the first part of s6. Also, we saw in Spiral that Spike responded to others by reflecting back what they gave him. Had Buffy given him the least encouragement, he would have blossomed. As it is, it's a minor miracle he didn't snap a whole lot earlier. Even after she broke off their relationship, Buffy was still sending Spike mixed messages (Entropy). I would have more respect for her had that not been the case.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 1, 2006 9:02:53 GMT -5
In terms of Buffy's state of mind being akin to clinical depression, she was in no shape to have a healthy relationship with anyone. OTOH, their relationship didn't seem so unhealthy during the first part of s6. Also, we saw in Spiral that Spike responded to others by reflecting back what they gave him. Had Buffy given him the least encouragement, he would have blossomed. As it is, it's a minor miracle he didn't snap a whole lot earlier. Even after she broke off their relationship, Buffy was still sending Spike mixed messages ( Entropy). I would have more respect for her had that not been the case. I've never had a romantic-type relationship that didn't include the sending of mixed signals (both ways, I gotta admit). Because people get mixed up, and don't know what they want. Especially when they're young and hurting and confused. BUFFY: Very imperfect! It's my favorite thing about her - how, despite her "Slayerhood" and the wild "unrealistic" nature of the show, how very, very, realistic she is, and how realistic the portrayal of her humanity, human reactions, and foibles are. I love both Buffy & Spike for their strength, for not snapping completely, for ultimately "blossoming" back to life, despite the very harsh soil - and for the imperfect but important parts they played, for themselves and for each other, in the "miracle re-births" they both experienced.
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Post by Kerrie on Feb 2, 2006 1:06:54 GMT -5
BUFFY: Very imperfect! It's my favorite thing about her - how, despite her "Slayerhood" and the wild "unrealistic" nature of the show, how very, very, realistic she is, and how realistic the portrayal of her humanity, human reactions, and foibles are. Yes, this is what I love most about BtVS. I think this is the worst part of BtVS finishing. The show was growing up and was becoming more relevant to older people. Realistically, high school and the whole high school angst thing was too long ago for me to really identify with. But, going to uni, taking on adult responsibilities, fighting depression, delagating power these are all things relevant to my life now. I just wish what JW would have done next if BTVS with SMG had stayed on air. But, maybe given SMG's age, hoping that she would age at her current rate would have been unrealistic. My guess is that he may have run out of adult situations in a few years and not been old enough himself to write a realistic show about the issues middle and old age. Of course this all assumes that an audience could be found. The lack of ratings would have been a problem. I am not sure how long I would have been interested when the show moved beyond what I knew to the relams I do not. Perhaps the reason I did not appreciate season 7 so much was because it was too advanced of my life experience: I have not been in the position of leader enough.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 2, 2006 8:46:24 GMT -5
BUFFY: Very imperfect! It's my favorite thing about her - how, despite her "Slayerhood" and the wild "unrealistic" nature of the show, how very, very, realistic she is, and how realistic the portrayal of her humanity, human reactions, and foibles are. Yes, this is what I love most about BtVS. I think this is the worst part of BtVS finishing. The show was growing up and was becoming more relevant to older people. Realistically, high school and the whole high school angst thing was too long ago for me to really identify with. But, going to uni, taking on adult responsibilities, fighting depression, delagating power these are all things relevant to my life now. I just wish what JW would have done next if BTVS with SMG had stayed on air. But, maybe given SMG's age, hoping that she would age at her current rate would have been unrealistic. My guess is that he may have run out of adult situations in a few years and not been old enough himself to write a realistic show about the issues middle and old age. Of course this all assumes that an audience could be found. The lack of ratings would have been a problem. I am not sure how long I would have been interested when the show moved beyond what I knew to the relams I do not. Perhaps the reason I did not appreciate season 7 so much was because it was too advanced of my life experience: I have not been in the position of leader enough. Yes - I think the viewer's reactions to the happenings, and the characters, and their actions and decisions, is strongly related to varying experiences and interests of the person viewing. Buffy & Spike are, in their own unique and individual ways, going through almost the exact same thing in Season 6 - in the same way. I identified, a lot, with both of them - more with Buffy, because she's female I suppose, and her struggle is presented in more familiar, human terms. But the experience of dealing with overwhelming, numbing trauma while everyone is looking to you to be in charge, and everyone is tugging at you, wanting things, expecting things - been there, done that! Spike's situation is the same, only presented in "less familiar to me" terms: The overwhelming trauma he starts trying to deal with is being vamped - which mirrors the sort of trauma Buffy experienced: having his hopes and dreams for his life, and his soul, wrenched away. And his "numbness" is literal: He experiences that feeling of "deadness" because he is dead. He's missing something; he sings about it. Like Buffy, he's reaching but he's unable to fully grasp; like Buffy, he's looking to their relationship to fill in the emptiness, to bring feeling back to dead limbs. The responsibility he's trying to take on despite this huge obstacle, is being of help to Buffy. That's a very tall order for him. They both manage, they both fumble. They ultimately always come through for each other - and both, in the end, overcome.
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Post by Michelle on Feb 2, 2006 14:39:33 GMT -5
Yes - I think the viewer's reactions to the happenings, and the characters, and their actions and decisions, is strongly related to varying experiences and interests of the person viewing. This is very true. I was just telling LadyDi that I first discovered the show in Season 6, and it just happened to air at a time in my life that I was really drawn to the darkness that Buffy & Spike's relationship exemplified then. I really identified (sadly) with some of Buffy's choices that season. I don't know if I could say watching it play out on screen was cathartic, but there was a certain amount of comfort to be found in the fact that even hot chicks with superpowers could make risky, hurtful choices. Very astute observation, Spring. I sometimes think of the phrase "ignorance is bliss" when it comes to Spike. When he was with Drusilla, he was in love and happy for the most part. Meeting Buffy and later falling in love was like his version of eating the apple from Tree of Knowledge. Well, actually that analogy works better for when he gets the soul, because that is when his eyes were truly opened. Wait--.this analogy isn't working at all, because that means Buffy is the snake.... Anyway!! My point is, just like Adam and Eve, Spike's eyes were opened to what he had been missing in his "life" and once opened, he had to deal with the burden of that knowledge. Thus the martyrdom of Spike in Season 7.
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Post by tatiana on Feb 22, 2006 8:05:36 GMT -5
Hi !!! I've just read Bargaining part I analysis and, although I want to read all these 5 pages of commentaries before add mine ones (in case I could say something interesting enough ), I want to say that 6 is my favorite BtVS season. I don't mind the boys and the girls falling in the deepest well. That's life and anything hep us to grow bigger and maturer. It could be so too, because I've seen BtVS in this order: 6->5->7->4->1->2->3 ;-), but I don't really think so. I'm very happy reading that SpringSummers is going to analyze sixth season. Spring, we'll wait you!! Tat
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 24, 2006 15:53:43 GMT -5
Hi !!! I've just read Bargaining part I analysis and, although I want to read all these 5 pages of commentaries before add mine ones (in case I could say something interesting enough ), I want to say that 6 is my favorite BtVS season. I don't mind the boys and the girls falling in the deepest well. That's life and anything hep us to grow bigger and maturer. It could be so too, because I've seen BtVS in this order: 6->5->7->4->1->2->3 ;-), but I don't really think so. I'm very happy reading that SpringSummers is going to analyze sixth season. Spring, we'll wait you!! Tat Thanks for the encouragement, Tat. I will try to get to the next one soon. I have it partway done . . . it's just a matter of finding the time to finish!
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