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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 18, 2006 11:43:53 GMT -5
I can't speak for Spring, of course, but you may have hit a nerve because instead of just giving your opinion of why Buffy chose to have a relationship with Spike, you went off on a mini-rant about the entire season. That seemed unnecessary, in my opinion. I actually agree with some of your points. The penis monster in Doublemeat Palace was pretty lame! (And a re-hash of the penis monster in Season 2's Reptile Boy.) Spring also mentioned in her analysis of Bargaining Part 1 that she felt there is some not-so-good mixed in with the greatness that is Season 6, so you're not really saying anything that we don't already know. Season 5 and 6 vie for my favorite season of BTVS. Depending on my mood, it can go either way. But Season 5 was filled with many flaws as well! For example: at the beginning of the season, the Key could be made into anything, like rock or a chair, but by the end of the season, Glory's ritual required blood to open the door to her dimension. To that, I say: huh? And yet with all it's flaws, that season never seems to incite the friction among fans that Season 6 does. So, I have to think that it's something else that really gets in people's craw. What that might be, I won't go into, but I will say that I'm really looking forward to reading more of Spring's analyses. After I read them, I always appreciate the talent and effort of Joss, the writers, directors and actors just that much more. And I REALLY appreciate what Spring does for us, the fans of the show. You're right, I did. This wasn't really the right place to post something potentially explosive (cuz it blew up in my face ). Perhaps we need a separate thread to discuss the season(s) overall? I dunno. I have other thoughts on s6 in general and s7. Where else would they have an appropriate forum? Why don't you post your thoughts, your interpretations, your questions, etc in the episodic elaborations? If it were more "this is how I see it" rather than reactionary, then maybe people would get less riled up.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 18, 2006 14:15:07 GMT -5
Really, I have no problem with any discussion, about any point, going on for as long as any two or more people want to keep it going. But as was said, tone is important. Please always feel free to agree or disagree with anything written in the analyses or on the thread. Some people feel insulted and beaten down if you disagree with them, even mildly. Some never feel upset, no matter how often, or how strongly, you disagree with them. So you can't, and I don't think you should, walk on eggs. But when you're suggesting that the other person is wrong, do your best not to be suggesting that they are also being stupid and/or ridiculuous, etc. We've had this come up on the main thread before on all sorts of topics. I never have any problem with someone telling someone else, "I think you're wrong, and here's why I think you're wrong, and here's some back up for my opinion." I do have a problem with wording that says right out, or suggests, that the other person is not only wrong, but idiotic. Thanks to everyone who chimed in. But here's the thing...I never intended to suggest that you're an idiot. I intended to suggest that the giant penis monster was idiotic. I chose my words incautiously. Imagine how surprised I was by your accusatory tone in response. No offense was meant. I would think by now you realize that I value your opinion. How many times have I mentioned it was your analyses that drew me to the S3 in the first place? Why do you think I sent you my essay before sending it to Vlad for posting? Would I keep reading and responding if I thought it was a waste of time a/o unworthy of my attention? Thank you, Lola (and Queen E, too) for blessed are the peacemakers. Yes - I believe you absolutely that you did not intend offense. I just needed to say that the wording was offensive, intended or not. Because we've got a long way to go here, when it comes to Season 6 - and we have much touchier subjects likely ahead. So I thought it best to just get it out in the open and address this. I am feeling perfectly fine about it. I hope you know from past posts and IMs that I appreciate your participation in the S3 and the thread. So - to everyone:I think we have a shot at doing this S6 discussion "right," in the sense of keeping it about the show - the plotlines, the dialogue, the themes, the characters - not about each other, or about the personal (as opposed to artistic) characteristics and motives of any of the BtVS cast and crew and writers. If someone thinks we needed less shirtless Spike in S6, then they should feel free to post that. They should expect to get disagreement, but not ridicule. Personal speculation needs to stay out of it, as much as possible, if we're going to get through this. You may privately wonder if this poster is blind or crazy or asexual , but don't put it on the board. I really wanna get through this, with all of you, because I think it will be a fun and learning experience. I have gotten tons out of reading the input and opinions on these threads. I am very proud of the level of discussion we've all managed to have so far. I don't want S6 to change that. Thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion (definitely including you, Di!). I have high hopes that we'll make it through S6 without seeing red (so to speak).
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Post by Kerrie on Jan 18, 2006 17:16:37 GMT -5
. So - to everyone:I think we have a shot at doing this S6 discussion "right," in the sense of keeping it about the show - the plotlines, the dialogue, the themes, the characters - not about each other, or about the personal (as opposed to artistic) characteristics and motives of any of the BtVS cast and crew and writers. If someone thinks we needed less shirtless Spike in S6, then they should feel free to post that. They should expect to get disagreement, but not ridicule. Personal speculation needs to stay out of it, as much as possible, if we're going to get through this. You may privately wonder if this poster is blind or crazy or asexual , but don't put it on the board. I really wanna get through this, with all of you, because I think it will be a fun and learning experience. I have gotten tons out of reading the input and opinions on these threads. I am very proud of the level of discussion we've all managed to have so far. I don't want S6 to change that. Thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion (definitely including you, Di!). I have high hopes that we'll make it through S6 without seeing red (so to speak). Oh thank goodness you have posted this, Spring. For one hideous moment I thought that Di's seasonal discussions would be relegated to another thread which would mean two things: 1) I would miss out on reading Di's insightful posts (and I am very interested in hearing her objections to season 6), and 2) I would probably have to put my own season based posts in the same spot . In any case I am thrilled that Bargaining Part 2 is nearly finished. I have a lot of questions about season 6 and I need your coherent analysis of each episode to clarify my thoughts (and catch all the million and one things that I miss in each episode). I don't think I said it earlier, because it was so obvious in my own mind, but I had missed that the season was all about identifying who was the boss and taking charge. I had also missed the Freudian connection (which is kinda embarassing given that I have done psych, but . . .) I think I could spend hours listing all the things I missed, but then I am not too bright. I think it took me weeks to figure out that the theme of the season was fighting inner demons. In fact I still remember how excited I was when I finally cracked it (this was pre-internet days when I watched the show in isolation: This is my excuse and I am sticking to it!). I think the brackets are getting the better of me so I am going. Cheers to all and sundry.
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Post by Sharky on Jan 18, 2006 17:44:04 GMT -5
"My biggest gripe with Season 6 is my biggest thematic gripe with Joss. I wanted, deeply, for Spike to complete his journey without a soul. I wanted him to rise above the need for the thing. But, Joss had his own dogma and in it the soul was essential. And, the Buffyverse (as much as we play in it) remains the legal and artistic property of Mr. Whedon, so he gets to write the canon. That's as it should be." Hi Sharkey - Agree that it would have been hard to get around the soul-having bit, what with all that had been laid down in the past. Personally, I thought that it was enough that Spike had long been demonstrated to have a surprising amount of humanity for a vampire - capable of deep love, reasonable and humorous. Also, I am an Angel fan - more of Angelus and late Angel than early Angel - and I couldn't have supported a mechanism that would have made him seem inferior to Spike, i.e. Spike doesn't need a soul to be good but Angel does. Obviously, the soul-having wasn't a deal killer for me. I viewed it as Joss' being true to his canon, even though it wasn't the direction I was hoping to see it go. In some ways, I consider Spike's journey superior to Angel's in that he sought a soul rather than was cursed by one. But part of that is that I like Spike more than I do Angel. I think you could argue that Angel, ultimately, is the more heroic of the two. But Spike, for me, was always more fun. Angel's tendency was to follow his head and not his heart. I lost my first love (thank God, in retrospect) because I was (and still am) similar. I envy Spike's passion, but I can't identify with it that well.
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Post by Sharky on Jan 18, 2006 17:46:39 GMT -5
If someone thinks we needed less shirtless Spike in S6, then they should feel free to post that. They should expect to get disagreement, but not ridicule. Personal speculation needs to stay out of it, as much as possible, if we're going to get through this. You may privately wonder if this poster is blind or crazy or asexual , but don't put it on the board. Well, I won't offend by suggesting a reduction in shirtless Spike. I would have preferred equal time be given to shirtless Willow or Buffy, but that's a personal thing. I'm looking forward to the discussion, Spring. I'll wear my Nomex.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 18, 2006 18:01:15 GMT -5
. So - to everyone:I think we have a shot at doing this S6 discussion "right," in the sense of keeping it about the show - the plotlines, the dialogue, the themes, the characters - not about each other, or about the personal (as opposed to artistic) characteristics and motives of any of the BtVS cast and crew and writers. If someone thinks we needed less shirtless Spike in S6, then they should feel free to post that. They should expect to get disagreement, but not ridicule. Personal speculation needs to stay out of it, as much as possible, if we're going to get through this. You may privately wonder if this poster is blind or crazy or asexual , but don't put it on the board. I really wanna get through this, with all of you, because I think it will be a fun and learning experience. I have gotten tons out of reading the input and opinions on these threads. I am very proud of the level of discussion we've all managed to have so far. I don't want S6 to change that. Thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion (definitely including you, Di!). I have high hopes that we'll make it through S6 without seeing red (so to speak). Oh thank goodness you have posted this, Spring. For one hideous moment I thought that Di's seasonal discussions would be relegated to another thread which would mean two things: 1) I would miss out on reading Di's insightful posts (and I am very interested in hearing her objections to season 6), and 2) I would probably have to put my own season based posts in the same spot . In any case I am thrilled that Bargaining Part 2 is nearly finished. I have a lot of questions about season 6 and I need your coherent analysis of each episode to clarify my thoughts (and catch all the million and one things that I miss in each episode). I don't think I said it earlier, because it was so obvious in my own mind, but I had missed that the season was all about identifying who was the boss and taking charge. I had also missed the Freudian connection (which is kinda embarassing given that I have done psych, but . . .) I think I could spend hours listing all the things I missed, but then I am not too bright. I think it took me weeks to figure out that the theme of the season was fighting inner demons. In fact I still remember how excited I was when I finally cracked it (this was pre-internet days when I watched the show in isolation: This is my excuse and I am sticking to it!). I think the brackets are getting the better of me so I am going. Cheers to all and sundry. I wasn't suggesting that Di not post here anymore; she was talking about setting up a separate thread, and I was just pointing out that there was such a place set up on our website: Episodic ElaborationsIt has the added benefit of having threads set up for all the episodes, notably the rest of the episodes in season 6, which Di and everyone else seem to be itching to discuss.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 18, 2006 18:05:56 GMT -5
If someone thinks we needed less shirtless Spike in S6, then they should feel free to post that. They should expect to get disagreement, but not ridicule. Personal speculation needs to stay out of it, as much as possible, if we're going to get through this. You may privately wonder if this poster is blind or crazy or asexual , but don't put it on the board. Well, I won't offend by suggesting a reduction in shirtless Spike. I would have preferred equal time be given to shirtless Willow or Buffy, but that's a personal thing. I'm looking forward to the discussion, Spring. I'll wear my Nomex. Thanks, Sharky.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 18, 2006 18:14:03 GMT -5
Oh thank goodness you have posted this, Spring. For one hideous moment I thought that Di's seasonal discussions would be relegated to another thread which would mean two things: 1) I would miss out on reading Di's insightful posts (and I am very interested in hearing her objections to season 6), and 2) I would probably have to put my own season based posts in the same spot . In any case I am thrilled that Bargaining Part 2 is nearly finished. I have a lot of questions about season 6 and I need your coherent analysis of each episode to clarify my thoughts (and catch all the million and one things that I miss in each episode). I don't think I said it earlier, because it was so obvious in my own mind, but I had missed that the season was all about identifying who was the boss and taking charge. I had also missed the Freudian connection (which is kinda embarassing given that I have done psych, but . . .) I think I could spend hours listing all the things I missed, but then I am not too bright. I think it took me weeks to figure out that the theme of the season was fighting inner demons. In fact I still remember how excited I was when I finally cracked it (this was pre-internet days when I watched the show in isolation: This is my excuse and I am sticking to it!). I think the brackets are getting the better of me so I am going. Cheers to all and sundry. I wasn't suggesting that Di not post here anymore; she was talking about setting up a separate thread, and I was just pointing out that there was such a place set up on our website: Episodic ElaborationsIt has the added benefit of having threads set up for all the episodes, notably the rest of the episodes in season 6, which Di and everyone else seem to be itching to discuss. Your suggestion that more general comments about S6, and eps I haven't yet gotten to, might fit better in the Episodic Elaborations makes perfect sense. I leave it to all of you to decide where best any particular comments you are thinking of making belong. I've never found, on this Spikecentricity board, that anyone has ever gone too astray of the topic at hand. But I don't have threads for ALL the eps, like the Episodic Elaborations board does, and as Liz points out, it's simply another place to know about, to consider to use for comments if it doesn't seem, to you, to quite belong here.
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Post by Michelle on Jan 19, 2006 9:10:20 GMT -5
I can't speak for Spring, of course, but you may have hit a nerve because instead of just giving your opinion of why Buffy chose to have a relationship with Spike, you went off on a mini-rant about the entire season. That seemed unnecessary, in my opinion. You're right, I did. This wasn't really the right place to post something potentially explosive (cuz it blew up in my face ). Perhaps we need a separate thread to discuss the season(s) overall? I dunno. I have other thoughts on s6 in general and s7. Where else would they have an appropriate forum? Well, for my own admittedly selfish reasons, I hope we can keep the discussions centered here in Spikecentricity, rather than splintering them off into other forums. I guess I'm just too stupid or too disorganized or something to figure out how to keep accurate track of all the various forums in S3! I'm afraid I'll lose out on all the good input from you and everyone else if people post comments elsewhere. As others have said much better than I ever could, if we can just keep our comments focused on critiquing the show while being respectful of differing opinions, I think we'll all come out of this better people. I am actually pretty excited that this show still incites so much passion in people! I love reading everyone's thoughts, and while I don't always respond to each post, I am usually reading and nodding my head in agreement--or scratching my head in confusion--whatever the case may be!
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Post by LadyDi on Jan 19, 2006 10:44:37 GMT -5
I wasn't suggesting that Di not post here anymore; she was talking about setting up a separate thread, and I was just pointing out that there was such a place set up on our website: Episodic ElaborationsIt has the added benefit of having threads set up for all the episodes, notably the rest of the episodes in season 6, which Di and everyone else seem to be itching to discuss. Your suggestion that more general comments about S6, and eps I haven't yet gotten to, might fit better in the Episodic Elaborations makes perfect sense. I leave it to all of you to decide where best any particular comments you are thinking of making belong. I've never found, on this Spikecentricity board, that anyone has ever gone too astray of the topic at hand. But I don't have threads for ALL the eps, like the Episodic Elaborations board does, and as Liz points out, it's simply another place to know about, to consider to use for comments if it doesn't seem, to you, to quite belong here. I'd considered Episodic Elaborations myself, but it is primarily, well, episodic.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 19, 2006 14:32:32 GMT -5
Your suggestion that more general comments about S6, and eps I haven't yet gotten to, might fit better in the Episodic Elaborations makes perfect sense. I leave it to all of you to decide where best any particular comments you are thinking of making belong. I've never found, on this Spikecentricity board, that anyone has ever gone too astray of the topic at hand. But I don't have threads for ALL the eps, like the Episodic Elaborations board does, and as Liz points out, it's simply another place to know about, to consider to use for comments if it doesn't seem, to you, to quite belong here. I'd considered Episodic Elaborations myself, but it is primarily, well, episodic. You are welcome to put your comments on this thread. I did mention my love of S6 in the analysis, so your opinions of the overall season fit in just fine. You were addressing something I brought up in the analysis, and the thread is for discussing the analysis and the ep in general.
I would just ask everyone again to keep a respectful tone - respectful of each other, and of the "real people" involved in the production of BtVS. No need to walk on eggs. Feel free to disagree with the opinion of the poster, or criticize the specific artistry (the writing of a certain script, the acting in a certain scene, etc.), but not the person. As I mentioned with my shirtless Spike example, you may privately think a poster is looney or perverse, or you may privately think that . . . Michelle T has the look of a serial killer - but this isn't the place for that kind of speculation.
I once read an exchange on some Buffy board . . . years ago . . . wherein a Bangel poster accused a Spuffy poster of being into Spuffy because she (the Spuffy poster) herself must be into S&M, and probably had a boyfriend who beat her. The Spuffy poster replied that the Bangel must be into pedophilia, and probably had a twisted relationship with a much older man. These people were dead serious! This is a wild example which I would never in a million years expect to see repeated here. I just share it because it came to mind, and it was kinda funny.
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Post by Kerrie on Jan 19, 2006 18:03:48 GMT -5
"My biggest gripe with Season 6 is my biggest thematic gripe with Joss. I wanted, deeply, for Spike to complete his journey without a soul. I wanted him to rise above the need for the thing. But, Joss had his own dogma and in it the soul was essential. And, the Buffyverse (as much as we play in it) remains the legal and artistic property of Mr. Whedon, so he gets to write the canon. That's as it should be." Hi Sharkey - Agree that it would have been hard to get around the soul-having bit, what with all that had been laid down in the past. Personally, I thought that it was enough that Spike had long been demonstrated to have a surprising amount of humanity for a vampire - capable of deep love, reasonable and humorous. Also, I am an Angel fan - more of Angelus and late Angel than early Angel - and I couldn't have supported a mechanism that would have made him seem inferior to Spike, i.e. Spike doesn't need a soul to be good but Angel does. Obviously, the soul-having wasn't a deal killer for me. I viewed it as Joss' being true to his canon, even though it wasn't the direction I was hoping to see it go. In some ways, I consider Spike's journey superior to Angel's in that he sought a soul rather than was cursed by one. But part of that is that I like Spike more than I do Angel. I think you could argue that Angel, ultimately, is the more heroic of the two. But Spike, for me, was always more fun. Angel's tendency was to follow his head and not his heart. I lost my first love (thank God, in retrospect) because I was (and still am) similar. I envy Spike's passion, but I can't identify with it that well. I will add my two cents and say that I thought it made sense that Spike got a soul because it highlighted what it did exactly. I don't want to start discussing season 7 when we see the exact effects of a soul in Spike. I say the effects of a soul in Spike, because as you have both said, Spike is different from other vampires such as Angel. I personally don't like choosing which vampire is better or worse or more heroic. I think those kinds of comparisons are a little unfair because it means weighing up the effect of numerous unknown or little known factors (e.g. the effect of family, friends, education, self-esteem). I realise that this will probably not make much sense but the series is like a statistical puzzle and I am just interested in seeing the overall patterns without being too interested in the specific data (people) or trying to work which data is better. The data is the data even if some of it is more important to discerning the overall patterns. I will stop here: JW does not like maths nor do most people. Unfortunately, I didn't study literature, English or drama in enough detail to be able to recast my thoughts into a more widely comprehesible format. I will also add that I am probably biased against doing any comparisons between Angel and Spike where Angel will win. ;D
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Post by Lola m on Jan 19, 2006 21:31:32 GMT -5
If someone thinks we needed less shirtless Spike in S6, then they should feel free to post that. They should expect to get disagreement, but not ridicule. Personal speculation needs to stay out of it, as much as possible, if we're going to get through this. You may privately wonder if this poster is blind or crazy or asexual , but don't put it on the board. Well, I won't offend by suggesting a reduction in shirtless Spike. I would have preferred equal time be given to shirtless Willow or Buffy, but that's a personal thing. I'm looking forward to the discussion, Spring. I'll wear my Nomex. ;D
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Post by LadyDi on Jan 20, 2006 9:49:27 GMT -5
I'd considered Episodic Elaborations myself, but it is primarily, well, episodic. You are welcome to put your comments on this thread. I did mention my love of S6 in the analysis, so your opinions of the overall season fit in just fine. You were addressing something I brought up in the analysis, and the thread is for discussing the analysis and the ep in general.
I would just ask everyone again to keep a respectful tone - respectful of each other, and of the "real people" involved in the production of BtVS. No need to walk on eggs. Feel free to disagree with the opinion of the poster, or criticize the specific artistry (the writing of a certain script, the acting in a certain scene, etc.), but not the person. As I mentioned with my shirtless Spike example, you may privately think a poster is looney or perverse, or you may privately think that . . . Michelle T has the look of a serial killer - but this isn't the place for that kind of speculation.
I once read an exchange on some Buffy board . . . years ago . . . wherein a Bangel poster accused a Spuffy poster of being into Spuffy because she (the Spuffy poster) herself must be into S&M, and probably had a boyfriend who beat her. The Spuffy poster replied that the Bangel must be into pedophilia, and probably had a twisted relationship with a much older man. These people were dead serious! This is a wild example which I would never in a million years expect to see repeated here. I just share it because it came to mind, and it was kinda funny. The Spuffy v. Bangel wars have certainly taken their toll. Personally, I think both 'ships were unhealthy, but the Bangel thing was unhealthy in more socially acceptable ways. As for my opinions on s6, I will try to post with more discretion in future. I actually think I will skip over to Episodic Elaborations for a moment, tho', b/c I can tie in a big gripe of mine quite neatly with Dead Things. Thank you.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 20, 2006 13:28:27 GMT -5
You are welcome to put your comments on this thread. I did mention my love of S6 in the analysis, so your opinions of the overall season fit in just fine. You were addressing something I brought up in the analysis, and the thread is for discussing the analysis and the ep in general.
I would just ask everyone again to keep a respectful tone - respectful of each other, and of the "real people" involved in the production of BtVS. No need to walk on eggs. Feel free to disagree with the opinion of the poster, or criticize the specific artistry (the writing of a certain script, the acting in a certain scene, etc.), but not the person. As I mentioned with my shirtless Spike example, you may privately think a poster is looney or perverse, or you may privately think that . . . Michelle T has the look of a serial killer - but this isn't the place for that kind of speculation.
I once read an exchange on some Buffy board . . . years ago . . . wherein a Bangel poster accused a Spuffy poster of being into Spuffy because she (the Spuffy poster) herself must be into S&M, and probably had a boyfriend who beat her. The Spuffy poster replied that the Bangel must be into pedophilia, and probably had a twisted relationship with a much older man. These people were dead serious! This is a wild example which I would never in a million years expect to see repeated here. I just share it because it came to mind, and it was kinda funny. The Spuffy v. Bangel wars have certainly taken their toll. Personally, I think both 'ships were unhealthy, but the Bangel thing was unhealthy in more socially acceptable ways. As for my opinions on s6, I will try to post with more discretion in future. I actually think I will skip over to Episodic Elaborations for a moment, tho', b/c I can tie in a big gripe of mine quite neatly with Dead Things. Thank you. Go to it, Di. It will probably be quite awhile before I get to Dead Things. You are so right about the Bangel-Spuffy wars taking their toll. Agree also about the "more socially acceptable ways," though I would add that some of this is due to the fact that BtVS is, to an extent (not 100%, by any means, but largely), being shown to us from Buffy's POV. So we, as viewers, have to do more work to notice the "bad" in the B/A and the "good" in the B/S, than vice-versa. It's all there - very much so- but much of it is hiding behind Buffy's POV. The show gave us mostly an idealized view of B/A, a demonized view of B/S . . . which corresponded with Buffy's POV. But unlike Buffy at the time, we as "outsiders," as viewers, are much freerer to notice the departures from reality that these surfacy "Buffy-views" are providing. Had a busy week, but am currently planning to finish Bargaining Part 2 this weekend. #xfingers# I am going to stay away from the discussions on the Episodic thread for eps I haven't analyzed yet. As I mentioned to Liz on the main thread, it ends up kinda screwing me up when I'm trying to write my review. I do plan to pop in and read all that stuff when I'm through. Gives me something to look forward to.
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