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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Oct 1, 2003 21:29:34 GMT -5
well did you see the previews for next week? I think I can figure out this season's running gag.... "I'm his date." Yeah, they'll be driving that one into the ground. It was so much funnier though when it was the old guy who had inhabited Angel's body and thought Angel was having a relationship with Fred, except he thought Wesley was Fred. That was a great moment; tonight those cracks sort of fell flat for me.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 1, 2003 21:30:17 GMT -5
Go for it, if you agree with it and think it will do the job. Not sure if that really qualifies as a review. More a Fred-ish ramble of random thoughts. Nah....I'll write my own, but I have to say I agree with you on quite a bit there. I think I'll go write my review while my thoughts are fresh, and then I can feel free to play on the board...back later!
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Oct 1, 2003 21:30:38 GMT -5
Maybe once again Joss is playing to the internet? How many 'Spike on Angel' jokes have there been? 7 kajillion? Not to mention a few animated avatars. And please lets not get Nan started on "sex and vampire dominance" again.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Oct 1, 2003 21:31:33 GMT -5
Nah....I'll write my own, but I have to say I agree with you on quite a bit there. I think I'll go write my review while my thoughts are fresh, and then I can feel free to play on the board...back later! That's what I always like to do, hence my desire to post quickly. Happy reviewing.
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 1, 2003 21:41:16 GMT -5
Ok, I'll dare to be different. I actually really liked this episode. I'll agree to the confusion about everyone moving in and, yet, it felt like they had been there a while... Other than that, though, I definitely enjoyed it. Now, I can probably attribute some of that enjoyment to the fact that it is a ME production and the fact that several other premieres I was anxiously awaiting failed to give me the same satisfaction. I loved the opening scene and the "sign here for your immortal soul" line. It was a great... summary of exactly what happened last season. Angel the hero abruptly became Angel the Boss of LA's Largest Evil Law Firm. And, it was nice to see that even Angel wasn't sure how to take that in the opening. Oooh and, for some reason, I adored the elevator scene with Angel and the two doors. So, which door will you choose Angel? I'm losing my train of thought here so I'll stop rambling soon I swear! One of my favorite things about Angel has always been their use of light. In the opening scene it's night and we have our 'usual' dark alley... dark everything. Then, we come into the W&H and it's brighter (still not as bright as being outside... because well it is evil). In Fred's lab, it's all white and bright... more a place of science than a place of moral standings. There is more but I'm forgetting it. I'll have to rewatch to catch all the uses of light. One thing that bothered me... similar to Dave's Lilah complaint. W&H was different in this episode than it was in the last episode last season. Granted, we still got the hustle and bustle happening all around the main characters but, the decor was different. I know that their offices are going to be up several floors so their 'floor' won't look the same as the lobby but the wood gave it a much more soft look than the business-like sterile metals that decorated the main lobby. However, I'd have to go back and rewatch the season finale again to see if Angel's office is the same. So, I may just be remembering it wrong Oooh... I had to come back and add a closing line. Blondy Bear!
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Oct 1, 2003 21:49:09 GMT -5
Ok, I'll dare to be different. I actually really liked this episode. I'll agree to the confusion about everyone moving in and, yet, it felt like they had been there a while... Other than that, though, I definitely enjoyed it. Now, I can probably attribute some of that enjoyment to the fact that it is a ME production and the fact that several other premieres I was anxiously awaiting failed to give me the same satisfaction. I loved the opening scene and the "sign here for your immortal soul" line. It was a great... summary of exactly what happened last season. Angel the hero abruptly became Angel the Boss of LA's Largest Evil Law Firm. And, it was nice to see that even Angel wasn't sure how to take that in the opening. Oooh and, for some reason, I adored the elevator scene with Angel and the two doors. So, which door will you choose Angel? I'm losing my train of thought here so I'll stop rambling soon I swear! One of my favorite things about Angel has always been their use of light. In the opening scene it's night and we have our 'usual' dark alley... dark everything. Then, we come into the W&H and it's brighter (still not as bright as being outside... because well it is evil). In Fred's lab, it's all white and bright... more a place of science than a place of moral standings. There is more but I'm forgetting it. I'll have to rewatch to catch all the uses of light. One thing that bothered me... similar to Dave's Lilah complaint. W&H was different in this episode than it was in the last episode last season. Granted, we still got the hustle and bustle happening all around the main characters but, the decor was different. I know that their offices are going to be up several floors so their 'floor' won't look the same as the lobby but the wood gave it a much more soft look than the business-like sterile metals that decorated the main lobby. However, I'd have to go back and rewatch the season finale again to see if Angel's office is the same. So, I may just be remembering it wrong You're not remembering it wrong -- I read somewhere that it is a different set. Not sure why they didn't keep the old one. I sort of liked the sterile metals over the wood -- the other set felt "bigger". They kept talking about how big W&H was in this episode, but it actually felt smaller than the Hyperion lobby. Angel's office was different, too. Might have been that he re-arranged furniture. But I seem to recall it was originally arranged so the doors were more close to the centerpoint of the wall across from the windows, and his desk was directly in front of the windows. Ok, so he moved his desk to one end of the room (where it looked like it should have gone all along thanks to the built-ins behind it), but the doors definitely slipped down the wall several feet if I remember correctly. And of course, both of these sets (the new set and the end-of-last-season set) were different from the original W&H offices where Lilah and Lindsay worked. I know, I know -- old W&H was destroyed by The Beast, but what a statement it would have made about the evilness and otherworldliness of W&H had the new offices been identical to the old ones (considering how fast they were rebuilt as well). Why a different Lilah? Why a different set?
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Post by Nickim on Oct 1, 2003 21:51:06 GMT -5
Since when is it okay in the Jossverse to kill humans, even evil ones? I haven't seen many of the Angel eps, have they killed humans before? Looked like Angelus was in the building during the fight with the SWAT team. I actually liked the Eve character--some good snark potential there, but I only saw Lilah a couple of times, so I can't make a comparison.
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Post by Laura on Oct 1, 2003 21:51:27 GMT -5
Funny lines and/or moments:
“‘Feng shui?’ What does that mean any way?” “That people will believe anything.”
“I’ve got a whole freezer full of horses heads.”
“Joe Kennedy tried to get out of his contract, but George Sr. read the fine print.”
Angel and the muscle cars! (Personally, I had the same reaction!)
Okay – random thoughts on the episode: Eve is both “Eve” – the tempted and the “serpent” – the tempter. She shows up in Angel’s office; she shows up waiting for Gunn – she’s very like the serpent in the garden – telling the FG about the firm, telling them things aren’t just what they seem, that they can make things different.
I thought it was a great moment when Angel bites the apple – yes, he was doing it as an “in your face” gesture to Eve, but I think it was also highly symbolic. One of the interpretations of the Garden of Eden story (and, if I remember my Milton correctly, also of Paradise Lost) is that the great sin of Adam and Eve was the desire to be like gods – it was the desire for knowledge, to acquire the knowledge of good and evil, that led to the fall from paradise. Angel and the FG have been handed the reins to W&H – L.A. They are offered the opportunity to “gain knowledge of good and evil” – and Angel symbolically accepts it by biting the apple. Does this mean that Angel is going to fall from grace again this season? We have to wait and see. “Mercy is stronger than conviction” – but does Angel show mercy? No. Is this already the start of his fall?
We could give some consideration to the double meanings of “conviction” – trying to keep Fries from being “convicted” (as in found guilty), as opposed to the FG maintaining their convictions of virtue and good as being superior to vice and evil.
Gunn was really cool! Though he’s not helping the reputation of my profession any! Interesting observations – the man in the White Room doesn’t lie. Probably doesn’t mean we can trust the man in the White Room, but – . Also, Gunn saved the day without resorting to violence.
Finally, Angel recognizes that W&H is a powerful weapon that they have to learn how to wield – a great tie-in to that “other” series, where they discovered a powerful weapon that they had to learn how to use! And ecco Spike!
Things I didn’t love:
That was a really awkward discussion about Cordy, but I guess the whole thing is awkward.
I thought the whole Special Ops team was just a little too “Initiative” – I mean, we’ve “been there, defeated that” already.
Who sent the amulet to L.A.? Blondie Bear was a big pile of dust – a buried big pile of dust, no less. How did he get mailed to Angel? Plus, Wesley didn’t know Spike – Wesley didn’t come to Sunnydale until S3, post-“Lover’s Walk” – and Spike’s only visits to L.A. preceded Wesley’s arrival there. So how could Wesley recognize him?
Finally, for you S/A slash fans – the subtext was running rampant tonight! Angel saying that he doesn’t have a problem “spanking men,” and then he objects to being called little, but doesn’t object to being called a fairy! And then Spike’s comment in the promo for next week? (I’m not identifying it in case somebody thinks it’s spoilery.)
Okay, that’s all I have for now – more to come after our wonderful essayists give their reviews!
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 1, 2003 21:53:34 GMT -5
You're not remembering it wrong -- I read somewhere that it is a different set. Not sure why they didn't keep the old one. I sort of liked the sterile metals over the wood -- the other set felt "bigger". They kept talking about how big W&H was in this episode, but it actually felt smaller than the Hyperion lobby. Angel's office was different, too. Might have been that he re-arranged furniture. But I seem to recall it was originally arranged so the doors were more close to the centerpoint of the wall across from the windows, and his desk was directly in front of the windows. Ok, so he moved his desk to one end of the room (where it looked like it should have gone all along thanks to the built-ins behind it), but the doors definitely slipped down the wall several feet if I remember correctly. And of course, both of these sets (the new set and the end-of-last-season set) were different from the original W&H offices where Lilah and Lindsay worked. I know, I know -- old W&H was destroyed by The Beast, but what a statement it would have made about the evilness and otherworldliness of W&H had the new offices been identical to the old ones (considering how fast they were rebuilt as well). Why a different Lilah? Why a different set? Those W&H people! Always up to no good! Also, the TV wall. That definitely wasn't there... the office was bigger than the one I remember from that last show. The new layouts threw me off a bit. And, I agree, it does feel a lot smaller now. Suddenly everyone is in close reach of each other. Though I wasn't pulling for a "split them apart" theme this year, I felt that was where we were going last year when they each were led off in a different direction. I was expecting to see that they'd be a little more inaccessible to each other. Ahhh, so much for expectations
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Oct 1, 2003 21:54:52 GMT -5
Since when is it okay in the Jossverse to kill humans, even evil ones? I haven't seen many of the Angel eps, have they killed humans before? Looked like Angelus was in the building during the fight with the SWAT team. I actually liked the Eve character--some good snark potential there, but I only saw Lilah a couple of times, so I can't make a comparison. Killing humans was always something Buffy refused to do; Angel never adhered to that rule himself. He had no problem whatsoever locking the W&H senior leadership in a bunker with two hungry vampires, showing no remorse as he did it. As for Eve, I liked her. My only complaint is that she was soooo much like Lilah I simply don't understand why she wasn't Lilah. Lilah was a great, great, great character, and by saying that Eve is like her, that's a compliment. But it also makes me miss Lilah even more by reminding me of her.
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Post by Nickim on Oct 1, 2003 21:56:39 GMT -5
Funny lines and/or moments:
??Feng shui?? What does that mean any way?? ?That people will believe anything.?
This exchange was my favorite of the whole ep.
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 1, 2003 21:56:53 GMT -5
Since when is it okay in the Jossverse to kill humans, even evil ones? I haven't seen many of the Angel eps, have they killed humans before? Looked like Angelus was in the building during the fight with the SWAT team. I actually liked the Eve character--some good snark potential there, but I only saw Lilah a couple of times, so I can't make a comparison. Nicki, was he human though? I thought his pulling off his mask with the smoke still in the air and not having any trouble breathing indicated he was not quite what he may have seemed. Of course, Angel didn't have a problem killing him (meaning it didn't take any special weapon, etc.) so I may be wrong. And, as Laura points out, if the guy was human it could be the beginning of an Angel fall from grace.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Oct 1, 2003 21:58:26 GMT -5
This exchange was my favorite of the whole ep. It was funny, but got funnier as Wes expressed his concern that bad feng shui might cause him to ignite.
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Post by Nickim on Oct 1, 2003 22:00:55 GMT -5
Killing humans was always something Buffy refused to do; Angel never adhered to that rule himself. He had no problem whatsoever locking the W&H senior leadership in a bunker with two hungry vampires, showing no remorse as he did it. As for Eve, I liked her. My only complaint is that she was soooo much like Lilah I simply don't understand why she wasn't Lilah. Lilah was a great, great, great character, and by saying that Eve is like her, that's a compliment. But it also makes me miss Lilah even more by reminding me of her. But, didn't Wesley cut off Lilah's head? Course, death is NO problem for W&H or ME. Maybe the actress wanted out or the actress playing Eve makes less money--budget cut & all. Though, if they really wanted to keep the budget down, why have a premise that requires all those extras and new sets.
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Post by Laura on Oct 1, 2003 22:01:21 GMT -5
You're not remembering it wrong -- I read somewhere that it is a different set. Not sure why they didn't keep the old one. I sort of liked the sterile metals over the wood -- the other set felt "bigger". They kept talking about how big W&H was in this episode, but it actually felt smaller than the Hyperion lobby. Angel's office was different, too. Might have been that he re-arranged furniture. But I seem to recall it was originally arranged so the doors were more close to the centerpoint of the wall across from the windows, and his desk was directly in front of the windows. Ok, so he moved his desk to one end of the room (where it looked like it should have gone all along thanks to the built-ins behind it), but the doors definitely slipped down the wall several feet if I remember correctly. And of course, both of these sets (the new set and the end-of-last-season set) were different from the original W&H offices where Lilah and Lindsay worked. I know, I know -- old W&H was destroyed by The Beast, but what a statement it would have made about the evilness and otherworldliness of W&H had the new offices been identical to the old ones (considering how fast they were rebuilt as well). Why a different Lilah? Why a different set? See, I'm not bothered by the new set, but I think it's because I'm used to what Big Law Firms look like. Other than the lab facilities, the Really Big Firms all pretty much look like that -- it's actually referred to as "Law Firm Tech," as opposed to the "Old White Shoe Firm Wood" look.
And I don't really think Eve is like Lilah. Sure, they're both evil women at W&H, but I really thinks that's it. Lilah was every inch the lawyer, trying to claw her way (literally) to the top of the partnership track. Eve isn't a lawyer -- I think she's just a non-legal manager. She doesn't have the same level of snarkiness, bitchiness, hell, just plain evil that Lilah did.
Ah, flippersmack. My firewall keeps giving me alerts tonight -- somebody somewhere has a redial program going trying to break into my computer. I don't know how long I'll be able to stay on tonight. Catch you later!
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