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Post by Nickim on Oct 1, 2003 22:18:30 GMT -5
Nicki, was he human though? I thought his pulling off his mask with the smoke still in the air and not having any trouble breathing indicated he was not quite what he may have seemed. Of course, Angel didn't have a problem killing him (meaning it didn't take any special weapon, etc.) so I may be wrong. And, as Laura points out, if the guy was human it could be the beginning of an Angel fall from grace. Angel broke one guy's neck who still had the gas mask on. And if they didn't need them, why wear them in the first place.
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Post by RaeBot on Oct 1, 2003 22:21:01 GMT -5
Wesley could have very well read about Spike, but that doesn't mean Wesley would ever have a clue what Spike looked like -- even if he did, Spike's appearance didn't at all speak "vampire", so why automatically assume that it truly was a vampire, and that particular vampire. Giles had read the Watchers' diaries, but he still didn't know that Angel was in reality Angelus. And he didn't know it was Spike until Spike introduced himself to Buffy -- then he looked up the reputation of the vampire who went by that name. There's no reason that Wesley could have known that it was Spike at that very moment.Actually, I'd argue that Spike is much more unique in appearance than Angel/Angelus. Bleach blonde who looks like he wants to be Billy Idol? Not to mention the duster (yay! the duster is back!). Plus, it is true that Giles didn't know Spike or Angel when they first met but, then, the people around him hadn't had as much contact with him as the people around Wesley have.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Oct 1, 2003 22:21:05 GMT -5
Maybe Willow told him while they were chatting about souled vampires last Spring. I think Wesley said it before Angel though. I loved the 'Blondie Bear' comment! Even if Willow had told him, and possibly even told him that "You can't miss Spike -- blonde vampire in a black leather duster, with a Billy Idol wannabe hairstyle. Fancies himself Sid Vicious." Wesley still had no way of knowing that it was Spike before him. The tone in his voice wasn't as if he were asking Angel to confirm "Is this indeed Spike" but instead was more of the shock of seeing Spike of all people in Angel's office; there was definite recognition, albeit tempered with disbelief.
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Post by Nickim on Oct 1, 2003 22:21:11 GMT -5
Nicki, is that a new avatar? It's really beautiful! Thanks Patti. The moving one disappeared. Most of the avatars in Avatar Alley are gone Can you capture this one so I don't lose him, please.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Oct 1, 2003 22:24:27 GMT -5
Time for me to drag my sorry behind off to bed. Morning comes mighty early in these parts.
Have a good night all.
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Post by Nickim on Oct 1, 2003 22:24:43 GMT -5
Even if Willow had told him, and possibly even told him that "You can't miss Spike -- blonde vampire in a black leather duster, with a Billy Idol wannabe hairstyle. Fancies himself Sid Vicious." Wesley still had no way of knowing that it was Spike before him. The tone in his voice wasn't as if he were asking Angel to confirm "Is this indeed Spike" but instead was more of the shock of seeing Spike of all people in Angel's office; there was definite recognition, albeit tempered with disbelief. You're right Dave. I didn't notice who said it was Spike first, but Wesley wouldn't have known. I was thinking it might have registered with Wes who Spike was when he heard Angel, but that doesn't work since Wes spoke first. And so we have the first plot mistake of the new season.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 1, 2003 22:27:22 GMT -5
David, your post #7, this thread, is cogent and clear. There is currently no limit on guest reviews, so if you want to add it to the eventual clamor, that's fine as far as I know. If you wait a day or two after Patti posts hers, (hers is the official guest review for this week), I see no reason you couldn't post yours, as well. I'm under the gun for the official review, so let me note a few things:
1) The ep is not identical to the one we downloaded. The initial scene with the Fries (Bad Guy) son at school was cut. I therefore realize that I can't do the reviews, except in general terms, from what's downloaded. I have to work from the episode. I think there's also additional dialogue I hadn't heard before, even though I'd watched the downloaded version several times. Good thing I'd taped it.
2) I have no trouble with the military overkill. The black ops squad is trying to accomplish 3 things. The ops squad, in the very first scene of Angel rescuing stupid blonde girl, and then subsequently, is trying to impress the new CEO with their effectiveness. Failing to do that, they (2) are trying to hold on to their rather dirty role at W&H, a role Angel is rapidly usurping. What does that tell us about Angel's role as an enforcer with W&H, if the black ops squad feel threatened by him to the point of setting out to TAKE him out?
Therefore, (3), the goon squad shows up at the school armed, not only with foggy gas and automatic weapons, but with a flask of holy water and at least one stake! They're prepared for Angel to be there, and are attempting not only to take him out but complete the current mission while doing so, thereby perhaps re-ingratiating themselves to the thoroughly malificent Senior Partners. To take out the CEO in the name of job security and perfect faith in EVIL is a very interesting corporate scenario. And Angel is apparently killing the human members of the black ops squad quite cheerfully and effectively and declaring that the only thing stronger than evil is mercy...while showing no mercy at all to the squad leader to whom he's saying this. And then striding off down the hall telling a damaged "soldier" that his brutal killing of the squad leader was "the last of the mercy" he intends to show.
I think Angel's bitten the apple, all right. And so has Gunn, letting himself be all lawyerd up. Now THAT's evil--we all know that, right?
Further details to follow, as I think them out.
[/color]
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Post by Nickim on Oct 1, 2003 22:28:31 GMT -5
Time for me to drag my sorry behind off to bed. Morning comes mighty early in these parts. Have a good night all. Night Dave. I'm signing off also. Talk to everyone later. Spike's tired of waiting up. ;D
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Post by Betsy on Oct 1, 2003 22:29:01 GMT -5
Angel comes on in 37 minutes ! ! !
Reading thru everyone's thoughts about this episode. Plus I wanted to make sure my new avatar came thru.
Be back at 10 pm.
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Post by Betsy on Oct 1, 2003 22:31:50 GMT -5
Angel comes on in 37 minutes ! ! ! Reading thru everyone's thoughts about this episode. Plus I wanted to make sure my new avatar came thru. Be back at 10 pm. I'm gonna be cool and quote myself . . . you all had to know I was gonna use the spanking line ;D I have an avatar for that, but it's not working right when I lighten it up and adjust the speed. But I will get it up have no fear ;D
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Post by Nickim on Oct 1, 2003 22:31:52 GMT -5
Failing to do that, they (2) are trying to hold on to their rather dirty role at W&H, a role Angel is rapidly usurping. What does that tell us about Angel's role as an enforcer with W&H, if the black ops squad feel threatened by him to the point of setting out to TAKE him out?
[/color] [/quote]Good point Nan. See you're already finding the layers.
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Post by makd on Oct 1, 2003 22:32:21 GMT -5
Hadn't considered that about Wesley not knowing Spike, but you're right -- they never met. As for who sent the amulet to Angel, hopefully we'll learn that this season. I'm not surprised the amulet came back to Wolfram & Hart since it originated there, perhaps it came to Angel since he was supposed to wear it. I'm figuring otherworldly forces at work in the return of the amulet. What struck me odd was why Angel would for some inexplicable reason decide to open the envelope he'd been ignoring the whole episode in the middle of a meeting when he had no idea the contents. Who opens random mail during meetings? When has Angel ever done that before? Is it at all possible that Wesley recognized Spike from the Watchers' books on known Master Vampires, and from Willow's (possible) and Cordelia's (possible) conversations about him? Also, Angel is new to CEO-ing. So, why not open the envelope. Thing is, in most office situations, the secretary would open all the mail....but, being that the secretary is Harmony..... Also: Why a different Lilah? Why a different set? I've got a theory: a different Lilah because of $, availability of actress, wanting a more "innocent" looking guide to evil. (looks less dangerous, therefore really is more dangerous) why a different set? why not? use the opportunity to make the changes that JW and ME wanted to make. just thoughts, guys. by the way, I liked this episode. I never really got into Angel - the backstory was too complex. I did make an effort to watch the last 6 episodes of Season 4. I caught up with the story, but the subtext was so complicated, that I was grateful to hear that AtS would be syndicated on TNT this fall. Have started fresh with it, and am liking the show. Not as much fun as BtVS, but I trust it will pick up. I liked this episode - it introduced me to the main characters, reminded me of the mission and the battle they will have this year with power, corruption, and set up the premise that questions the depth of their own convictions. Gunn is already "up" to change...but for what? Angel is missing Cordy, wondering about Connor, probably thinking about the challenges ahead... they all seemed concerned, a little scared, truly challenged by their new situation. And, of course, into the mix comes Spikey - who, despite Angel's glower, enters into a place where at least one person sees him as "blondy bear". Good ending --- a light note... I think I'm gonna like the show. and ooh, ooh: THANK YOU GREAT AND WORTHY TECHNOPAGANS. YOU HAVE CREATED A TRULY WORTHY EDIFICE FOR S3. (grovels on floor, singing, "Thy worth is great.") Gee, I am so glad I worked on the Thrall Room! Now, if I can just find which area of the mansion it's in.......Oh, I and, where's the map? I can't find the kitchen, either......
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Post by Nickim on Oct 1, 2003 22:33:36 GMT -5
Angel comes on in 37 minutes ! ! ! Reading thru everyone's thoughts about this episode. Plus I wanted to make sure my new avatar came thru. Be back at 10 pm. I can't see the new avatar.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 1, 2003 22:34:19 GMT -5
Even if Willow had told him, and possibly even told him that "You can't miss Spike -- blonde vampire in a black leather duster, with a Billy Idol wannabe hairstyle. Fancies himself Sid Vicious." Wesley still had no way of knowing that it was Spike before him. The tone in his voice wasn't as if he were asking Angel to confirm "Is this indeed Spike" but instead was more of the shock of seeing Spike of all people in Angel's office; there was definite recognition, albeit tempered with disbelief. Well, maybe they just messed up.
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Post by Laura on Oct 1, 2003 22:34:37 GMT -5
Laura, I'm right there with you on the apple biting scene. And, I do think it has great significance on how this season will play out for Angel. Ahh, Joss and his power themes. He does love them. I think we saw several (if not all) of our FG lose a little of themselves to the 'power' this week. It will be interesting if we continue to see that trend. Quoting myself -- because we know it's cool. Another thought I just had about the whole Paradise Lost tie-in -- Lucifer's statement after the fall:
So, what will Angel's choice be (and oh, this parallel is just getting better and better!)? To "reign in hell"? Or to "serve in heaven"? Oh, I can't WAIT for the rest of this season!
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